Political Crossfire Forums

[slitedeviance]

Not a usual heading given recent circs, but then this isn't meant to be a usual thread...

I want peoples ideas for how peace in the middle east can be acheived. I want peoples ideas for how we can move forward from where we are to where we should be. I want honest opinions and I want people here to acutally give a damn about peace.

Warning though:
This is not a thread for accusations, counter accusations, insults, slander, lies (yes that does happen, even amongst the happy people on this forum!). I do not want extremist views (we must kill all the Jews / Christians / Muslims). I do not want to know how much everyone hates each other.

There is simply no point to the above in the context of this thread.

So again, what pragmatic and real actions can be taken to resolve the situation in the middle east. I'm not expecting ideas for how everyone can love one another, but how about everyone can go about without dropping cluster munitions and blowing up car bombs.

[fiction416]

I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

[mendosan]

fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

What would your suggestion be for disputed land and holy sites, because I have never heard reasonable solutions for these.

[fiction416]

mendosan wrote: fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

What would your suggestion be for disputed land and holy sites, because I have never heard reasonable solutions for these.


This would be a state issue, but the first hurdle to this problem that comes to mind, inre: the BIG JUICY ONES, they should be declared UNESCO World Heritage Sites & be accesible to all... food for thought?

This new state should be extremely secular, almost out of necessity in remaining imaprtial & detached to allow for a truly impartial prespective. IE: religion takes a back seat to peace & unity of the state.

As for Land - this is a little trickier, for first suggestions, as I see many disputes emanating from the Palestinian angle. However, again, I would imagine getting a Constitution in order would be the initial and over-riding problem.

[The Comrade]

fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

AKA you want an islamic caliphate.

[fiction416]

The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

AKA you want an islamic caliphate.


WTF?? where did I say that?

[mr_happy]

A one nation state with freedom for all regardless of race or religion. Open access to all holy places (yes that means the temple mount!) and representation based on popular vote. Clergy would not be allowed to run for offices, and religious institutions would be supported by donations. Land would be distributed by the state.

A two state solution would include Israel and palestine. Israel would be within 1967 borders and include Jerusalem. Holy Places would be open to all (YES INCLUDING THE MOUNT). Palestine would be in the West Bank and Gaza, and would have its capital in Ramallah. There would be free trade between ISrael and Palestine free of duties or tariffs.

For both these situations, a strict clamp on Islamic terror would have to be established. Of course, the middle eastern governments don't have a good record of that.

[The Comrade]

fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

AKA you want an islamic caliphate.


WTF?? where did I say that?




Quote: I think a one state solution is necessary

[fiction416]

The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

AKA you want an islamic caliphate.


WTF?? where did I say that?




Quote: I think a one state solution is necessary


fiction416 wrote:
This new state should be extremely secular, almost out of necessity in remaining imaprtial & detached to allow for a truly impartial prespective. IE: religion takes a back seat to peace & unity of the state.

[The Comrade]

fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

AKA you want an islamic caliphate.


WTF?? where did I say that?




Quote: I think a one state solution is necessary


fiction416 wrote:
This new state should be extremely secular, almost out of necessity in remaining imaprtial & detached to allow for a truly impartial prespective. IE: religion takes a back seat to peace & unity of the state.



tricky tricky fiction.


you really shouldn't edit your posts.

[fiction416]

The Comrade wrote:


tricky tricky fiction.


you really shouldn't edit your posts.




Do you have any suggestions to add to the topic at hand?

[superskippy]

A two state solution remains the most feasible and most likely and most wanted solution. What has to be solved is the violence before a state can even begin and I think that if all goes well we might be ready for the next round of major negotiations within 10 years.

What I envision for a state is Israel ceding the West Bank to the Palestinians as they already have Gaza as well as some heavily Arab populated land on the fringes of the West Bank which have very loyal and heavy concentrations of expatriot Palestinians. Jerusalem will remain Israeli but holy sites will of course remain open to all faiths. But I think this is the only feasible border plan, I do not beleive the Palestinians have any right or any chance of claiming East Jerusalem. But perhaps an agreement of allowing them offices there would provide some sort of compromise?

I beleive a bi-national highway running through Israel that is secured on all sides like a national border might be feasible. We would of course man the border running alongside Israeli territory, with the checkpoints into Palestine and Israel run by our own people respectivley. It is at this moment a fantasy idea but one day it might be possible.

Also what needs to be addressed is the water issue, the most feasible idea I have yet heard and the most profitable for everyone is a joint Jordanian-Palestinian-Israeli canal from the straits of Tiran to the Dead Sea and the Jordan River with a mix of Desalinzation plants to increase not only useable water enormously but to reinvegorate the Jordan River and virtually create a new watersource for all 3 peoples. I dont see any partisan way of viewing this and I really do hope it is achieved one day.

Another thing that needs to be looked at is the security force this nation of Palestine will have. I know many of you beleive strongly in Palestinian statehood but you must also accept that when and if that day comes you can honestly expect us to place no limits on a Palestinian Army. I'm sure the trade of peace and statehood in exchange for a reduced offensive ability in any Palestinian force is wholly acceptable. As well as a joint Air Defense treaty, our ability to use the skies of the Negev and over the Jordan valley is imperative to our security and dual use of that air space must be negotiated. Of course bear in mind this is all hypothetical for the future.

As well as the development of Palestinian domestic trade and international commerce which due not military but political failures is in total shambles. This must be rectified if the Palestinians are to succeed as a nation and maintain the peace and also become a trading partner. Expansion of ports and banks and training of accountents, stock brokers, and in general economic trainers is a must. I know it may seem mundane but it is something they MUST have if they desire a profitable and succesful nation.

I have much more I could say but I want to stop here, I have tried my utmost to keep this non-partisan I think exploring ideas of commerce, infrastructre, and canals can hardly be criticized as such.

[The Comrade]

fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote:


tricky tricky fiction.


you really shouldn't edit your posts.




Do you have any suggestions to add to the topic at hand?

like you add to all the other threads? all your anti israel rhetoric and half truths. but that's not for this thread so i'm dropping it.



also, you said you wanted a single state in the middle east. this is generally viewed as an islamic caliphate(and when i quoted you, you never had that secular bull in there. so don't give me that).

so, do you honestly think israel would last surrounded by that islamic empire? the obviously answer is no.

so i will ask you, why do you want israel to become the whipping dog of the arabs? why is that you want the arab world to have so much power?

you do understand that power attracts the corruptable.

[fiction416]

The Comrade wrote:
like you add to all the other threads? all your anti israel rhetoric and half truths. but that's not for this thread so i'm dropping it.

you just can't avoid attacking me, eh?



The Comrade wrote: also, you said you wanted a single state in the middle east. this is generally viewed as an islamic caliphate(and when i quoted you, you never had that secular bull in there. so don't give me that).

It was always in my second post, sorry, but you are wrong!

The Comrade wrote: so, do you honestly think israel would last surrounded by that islamic empire? the obviously answer is no.

My answers above speak for themselves

The Comrade wrote: so i will ask you, why do you want israel to become the whipping dog of the arabs? why is that you want the arab world to have so much power?

I want equality where equality is needed.

BTW, kindly STFU & stop putting words in my mouth, saying such gibberish as "why do you want israel to become the whipping dog of the arabs" & "why is that you want the arab world to have so much power" - Where have I said those things?

Why do you think so lowly of Arabs, is the real question, perhaps?
Do you see me attacking you about your Arab hate?

The Comrade wrote: you do understand that power attracts the corruptable.

non sequitur

[superskippy]

Feel free to critique my points, lets try and direct this back on topic and make it constructive.

[The Comrade]

fiction416 wrote:
It was always in my second post, sorry, but you are wrong!

funny how when i quoted it it wasn't in there. then, when you try and point out you said it, it magically appears in your statement

fiction416 wrote:
My answers above speak for themselves

stop skirting around the question.

do you think israel would survive if it was surounded by an arab empire?


fiction416 wrote:
I want equality where equality is needed.

so you think a massive islamic caliphate is equality?

fiction416 wrote:
BTW, kindly STFU & stop putting words in my mouth, saying such gibberish as "why do you want israel to become the whipping dog of the arabs" & "why is that you want the arab world to have so much power" - Where have I said those things?

what do you think would happen to israel if it was dwarfed by an arabian empire?

also, what do you think would happen to the power struggle in the middle east if there was such an empire?

you cannot possibly say it would be equal.

fiction416 wrote:
Why do you think so lowly of Arabs, is the real question, perhaps?
Do you see me attacking you about your Arab hate?

if i had arab hate, you could attack me on it.

but you see fiction, i have(and you can ask everyone else on this forum) brought up BOTH sides of the conflicts and their problems.

you my friend, have done nothing but lambast israel, and now you talk of some giant arab empire in the name of "equality".



fiction416 wrote:
non sequitur

of course it is, when you omit the statement it followed.

giving such al arge empire(calling it a mere state is laughable) would most certainly attract the corruptable.

[Venom]

I believe the only way to honestly have peace in the Middle East is to change Iran and Syria to start. They are known to back forces that bring violence to Israel. If you can stop the central source that carries out these attacks against Israel then you can actually have some talks.

Also Israel should not be expected to give up ANY land awarded to them by the United Nations.


Then you need to stop all attacks against Israel. If they do not attack Israel, Israel is not going to retailate.

Try to work a deal in which Palestinians are allowed to take the West bank and travel into the holy sites they wish inside of Israel.

[fiction416]

The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote:
It was always in my second post, sorry, but you are wrong!

funny how when i quoted it it wasn't in there. then, when you try and point out you said it, it magically appears in your statement




get your eyes checked, then.

out of principle, I'm done.....

[The Comrade]

fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote:
It was always in my second post, sorry, but you are wrong!

funny how when i quoted it it wasn't in there. then, when you try and point out you said it, it magically appears in your statement




get your eyes checked, then.

out of principle, I'm done.....

plan on responding to the rest of the post?

[programmusic]

comrade, who gives a ****. Look at the topic title.