Political Crossfire Forums

[psholtz]

I know we've had this discussion before, but what are the references to a Rapture prior to Darby and Scofield in the 1800s?

Who are those early Church fathers that Rapture-believers claim also made mention of a "Rapture"?

[wormwood]

Quote: Who are those early Church fathers that Rapture-believers claim also made mention of a "Rapture"? As far as I know this rapture idea was invented at the same time as dispensationalism, and I have never heard anyone offer conclusive evidence to the contrary. It is certainly not a Catholic idea, and since that was the primary form of Christianity in the Western world, it is safe to assume the idea can date no earlier than the 1500's. Perhaps I am mistaken and I am interested in any evidence anyone could post.

[Todd D.]

You'll find quotes from Polycarp and...I want to say Clement but I could be wrong on that, but you could also argue that those passages are referring more specifically to the "Resurrection of the Body" spoken of in the New Testament, which carries some important differences from the Rapture. I find it highly unlikely that the theology that we see in today's "Left Behind" concept would be endorsed by those early Church Fathers, but I recognize that I do carry a bit of a bias there.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Matthew 12:38-45 - 38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: 22 `Whom have you reproached and blasphemed?

And against whom have you raised your voice,

And haughtily lifted up your eyes?

Against the Holy One of Israel!

23 `Through your messengers you have reproached the Lord,

And you have said, "With my many chariots

I came up to the heights of the mountains,

To the remotest parts of Lebanon;

And I cut down its tall cedars and its choice cypresses.

And I entered its farthest lodging place, its thickest forest.

24 "I dug wells and drank foreign waters,

And with the sole of my feet I dried up

All the rivers of Egypt."


25 `Have you not heard?

Long ago I did it;

From ancient times I planned it.

Now I have brought it to pass,

That you should turn fortified cities into ruinous heaps.

26 `Therefore their inhabitants were short of strength,

They were dismayed and put to shame;

They were as the vegetation of the field and as the green herb,

As grass on the housetops is scorched before it is grown up.

27 `But I know your sitting down,

And your going out and your coming in,

And your raging against Me.

28 `Because of your raging against Me,

And because your arrogance has come up to My ears,

Therefore I will put My hook in your nose,

And My bridle in your lips,

And I will turn you back by the way which you came.


The world will be dragged into events it can no longer do anything about.

Humanity has had it's chance, now we will see the Day of the Lord come upon the Earth.

[John]

psholtz wrote: I know we've had this discussion before, but what are the references to a Rapture prior to Darby and Scofield in the 1800s?

Who are those early Church fathers that Rapture-believers claim also made mention of a "Rapture"?

Irenaeus is a decent study.


"When, in the end, the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things’ sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the Earth]"

[cap'n queasy]

Of course you could go back to the source of the rumour.


deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

[cap'n queasy]

And then there is Papias, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus, as well as Ireneaus.

The first three centuries of Christianty, in other words.

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: And then there is Papias, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus, as well as Ireneaus.

The first three centuries of Christianty, in other words.

And Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter ect ect.... :-D

[Todd D.]

Many of those were Premillenialists, that much is true, but many of them (Justin Martyr, really the first Church Father to formalize the Premillenial concept, for example) were not dispensationalists In other words, they believed that the thousand years was not here yet, but they believed in a Post-Trib "rapture" (if that's what you want to call it). Justin mentioned two resurrections, but believed that it would come AFTER the Tribulation (remember that, at the time, many felt that they were going through the Tribulation already, so it's easy to see where that view was coming from).

[cap'n queasy]

That's like saying Noah built the ark after the flood. :-D

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: That's like saying Noah built the ark after the flood. :-D

:-D

[Todd D.]

cap'n queasy wrote: That's like saying Noah built the ark after the flood. :-D
Not really. The Bible very clearly references the Resurrection of the Dead, it's impossible to deny that. Where Dispensationalism goes further is to say that resurrection, as well as that of those living, will occur BEFORE the Tribulation. That's fine, and you are certainly welcome to your interpretation. I just don't think it's wise to reference early church writers when, by your own admission, they disagree with you.

[cap'n queasy]

Todd D. wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: That's like saying Noah built the ark after the flood. :-D
Not really. The Bible very clearly references the Resurrection of the Dead, it's impossible to deny that. Where Dispensationalism goes further is to say that resurrection, as well as that of those living, will occur BEFORE the Tribulation. That's fine, and you are certainly welcome to your interpretation. I just don't think it's wise to reference early church writers when, by your own admission, they disagree with you.

Did Y'shua say this or not:
Quote: Mt 24:37 -
"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

I don't think they disagree with me, I think your interpretation of what they said disagrees with me.

[John]

Todd D. wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: That's like saying Noah built the ark after the flood. :-D
Not really. The Bible very clearly references the Resurrection of the Dead, it's impossible to deny that. Where Dispensationalism goes further is to say that resurrection, as well as that of those living, will occur BEFORE the Tribulation. That's fine, and you are certainly welcome to your interpretation. I just don't think it's wise to reference early church writers when, by your own admission, they disagree with you.

There is the Resurrection of the saved and of the damned.

They happen at different times.

[wormwood]

Quote: Irenaeus is a decent study.


"When, in the end, the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things’ sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come This is more support for a judgment day, than a rapture. I see no mention of people just suddenly disappearing right before bad things begin to happen. However, upon the response from Todd and Cap I did a little more research and found these things, although admittedly they are not from the greatest source:
Quote: The word "rapture" comes from the same root as rapt: the Latin verb rapere, or the adjective raeptius[1], which means "carried away by force, caught up". The 405 AD Vulgate translation used it in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the main biblical reference usually quoted for the Rapture event. The specific form used is rapiemur, "we shall be caught up", translating the original Greek harpagēsometha (ἁρπαγησόμεθα) (passive voice, future tense of harpazō (ἁρπάζω): "snatch away, carry off.")

However, the word "rapture" itself is not found anywhere in English Bible translations nor its original Greek or Hebrew documents.

Quote: The doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead — as taught by Jesus in the Gospels — was common to all Christians and part of the Nicene Creed. Clement and Polycarp two of the earliest Church fathers, apparently taught on the resurrection and translation (rapture) as a deliverance from the evil to come. But after them, little attention was paid to the area of eschatology later known as 'Rapture' until the Protestant Reformation; thus, although Christians from the very beginning accepted, as Scriptures clearly state, that, at some point, the faithful would be "caught up" with Christ, which some in modern eschatology give the name of 'Rapture', the Christian denominations that actually put eschatological emphasis on it are mostly those that appeared after the Reformation.

And this is really funny and why this isn't the greatest source:
Quote: The Rapture is an event in certain systems of Christian eschatology (the study of the end times) in which it is believed that all true Christians will be taken from Earth by Jesus Christ into Heaven. Although almost all forms of Christianity believe that those who are "saved" will enter Heaven, the term "rapture" is usually applied specifically to the belief that Christians will be "taken" into heaven. However, the timing of "when" the rapture will take place is the key point often discussed and debated between denominations. One belief ("dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretations) is that the rapture will take place at an unknown period of time prior to the beginning of the seven year tribulation, and that at that time only non-Christians will be left on the earth. However many will come to know Christ during the time of the tribulation, before He (Christ) returns to set up His Kingdom of God/earthly kingdom. Others believe that the rapture will be a very audible and visible event which takes place after the events of the tribulation, right at the Second Coming of Christ in which the righteous will be taken up in the clouds to meet Christ upon his return. It will happen on September 23 2006. :lol: We only have 2 days left according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

[cap'n queasy]

From a text written by Epraem of Syria (306-373 AD)



Quote: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/

This does not necessarily prove the view to be correct but it certainly does prove what some of the earliest Christians thought about the subject.

[wormwood]

Quote: This does not necessarily prove the view to be correct but it certainly does prove what some of the earliest Christians thought about the subject. Thanks Cap, that is what I was looking for.

Did anyone follow the link and see that wiki really says the world is going to end Sept, 23 2006? :lol:

[cap'n queasy]

Statements like that are best ignored. :lol:

[psholtz]

wormwood wrote: Quote: This does not necessarily prove the view to be correct but it certainly does prove what some of the earliest Christians thought about the subject. Thanks Cap, that is what I was looking for.

Did anyone follow the link and see that wiki really says the world is going to end Sept, 23 2006? :lol:
Holy Apocalypse!!! :shock:

That's my birthday!! :lol: