Political Crossfire Forums

J. Reiner · Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 39

cap'n queasy wrote: The secret is being smarter than the dog. :-D

But that can be really hard for some of us. Those pups are so crafty.

On thread topic, is it okay? Yes, it doesn't cause them serious harm, and I'd say it's no worse than spanking a child. Is it ideal? No, it's not. There are better methods, primarily establishing dominance. My father raised dogs, when one acted up by trying to steal food, jump on someone, or if he barked at those walking by, he would bite the dog on the ear. :roll:
We always thought it was a bit strange, but those dogs were well behaved, and loved him.

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13004 Location: upstate NY

Rankor and Pissing wrote: If training is done properly, you don't have to. Hacks and people who don't know what they are doing strike the animal - not necessary. Dogs follow a pack mentality and given you exert leadership and take charge properly, the dog will follow. That was exactly what this person that I watched was all about. Dogs have a need for a sense of heirarchy. If a person does not exert leadership in their dog, the dog will assume that it is free to do as it pleases and without any other dogs it may begin acting out.

Most dogs will assume the role of caretaker of the family in the event of strangers. After answering the door a dog may continue to bark. scolding it just confuses the dog. Patting it on the head first then stearnly telling it to stop and guiding it away will be more effective in stopping the dog from the incessent barking. You showed a positive reinforcement for the dog but maintained a calm but forceful manner of leadership and control over the dog.

This dog trainer showed numerous ways which dealt with troublesome behavior in dogs and this quiet calm and stearn leadership works on almost all dogs.

Atlas Bergeron · Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 2680 Location: Reality

PricklySponge wrote: Is it acceptable to hit a dog as a form of training?

EDIT: This thread is based on training dogs away from bad behavior ( ie. stealing food, aggression, jumping on people, etc)

Oh, I thought it was in like combat trainging :lol:

too late at night... I really am getting sick (physically).
Either one is fine with me.

Shiryou · Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 8 Location: Minnesota

I said no, but I'm not sure what's meant by "hit."

Obviously, a sucker-punch to the dog's spine isn't good, but I see nothing wrong with a little extra force to get the trainer's message across.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

cap'n queasy wrote: The fact is dog trainers do not hit dogs to train them.

Some do, some don't.

Also, define dog trainer. By my definition, I'm a dog trainer. I have trained a dog. I swatted my dog. Hence, some dog trainers do hit dogs.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2043 Location: Somewhere

perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The fact is dog trainers do not hit dogs to train them.

Some do, some don't.

Also, define dog trainer. By my definition, I'm a dog trainer. I have trained a dog. I swatted my dog. Hence, some dog trainers do hit dogs.

No professional dog trainer hits their dog. Period. As for the argument that dogs in the wild use aggression for training purposes, it's because their in the wild and they need to be violent in order to survive. A dogs violent tendencies however is not something we want to encourage when we're training them to be a pet.

With regards to a definition of a dog trainer it would be someone who essentially does such a task for a living. They sometimes have formal qualifications in animal behaviour and some are even vets. They're often members of a kennel club and their professional status is recognised by their peers.

Cheers, Eternal

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2608

I don't really like animal rights people, but theres no way I would hit a dog so i vote no

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6332

The question is not whether it is effective. The quesiton is whether it is morally acceptable to hit a dog. Since I find it morally acceptable to hit a child, i think hitting a dog is no problem.

name · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 144

and doesn't the alpha male generally show his physical prowess by beating on his fellow dog?

Not always. Dogs have ways of asserting dominance that do not involve 'beating.' Similar to wolves; dominance fights between wolves are frequently bloodless, although breeding has removed a lot of these traits from dogs.
Pain is not known to be a particularly good reinforcer for a good relationship between person and dog. It breeds more fear than obedience. I think that hitting the dog may be a last resort, but just not on the head or face; otherwise, any time you stand in front of your dog and move your hand he will likely become afraid.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

PricklySponge wrote: Is it acceptable to hit a dog as a form of training?

EDIT: This thread is based on training dogs away from bad behavior ( ie. stealing food, aggression, jumping on people, etc)

Dogs are much more intelligent and capable than people give them credit for. There is zero reason to hit a dog for training purposes.
That said, there is some physical contact necessary.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10884 Location: Podunk, Colorado

I voted yes, we don't "beat" our dogs, just a slap if they are misbehaving.

That worked until my brother got his dog, a shock collar is the only effective means of getting that dog to mind.
If slapping doesn't work, the shock collar does wonders.

Rilzic · Joined: 22 May 2005 Posts: 385 Location: Alb, NM, USA

J. Reiner wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The secret is being smarter than the dog. :-D

On thread topic, is it okay? Yes, it doesn't cause them serious harm, and I'd say it's no worse than spanking a child. Is it ideal? No, it's not.

I agree with this guy. For those of you that say it is not ok, I disagree, some of the best trained dogs i know have been hit. No these weren't dogs for blind people, but i know falconers that hunt with dogs and falcons that use aggression when it works. I think the Non aggression training (best when you have a pup from birth) is best but not everyone is that skilled with animals.

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15039 Location: Albuquerque, NM

PricklySponge wrote: Is it acceptable to hit a dog as a form of training?

EDIT: This thread is based on training dogs away from bad behavior ( ie. stealing food, aggression, jumping on people, etc)

Nope. If you have a dog that shows ANY signs of aggression, hitting it will likely only make it more aggressive. Dogs show aggressive behavior towards humans when they feel they are the dominate ones. The best way to get them to stop is to teach and reward them for submissive behavior. Putting a dog down on the ground (being sure it won't bite you, obviously) is a good way to show who's boss. Making it sit for its food, or any sort of obediance training is designed to make you the pack leader and the dog the follower. Dogs don't care what role they play, just as long as their role in the pack is clearly defined. Punishing bad behavior more difficult and less effective than rewarding good behavior. There are many good books on the topic.

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15039 Location: Albuquerque, NM

perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: That's because you don't know anything about training dogs.

So what are your feelings about spanking kids?

Spanking isn't about the threat of pain. It should not injur a child, obviously. The "pain" if any should only be discomfort. Humans, like dogs, are social creatures and want the acceptance of their "packs." Spanking a child, especially in public, is more of an embarassment technique, which are more effective on humans because unlike dogs, we don't forget and we get embarassed. The most effective spankings I ever got were not actual spankings, but the mere threat of it.

Dogs are different. They don't remember things like that. They may associate a bad feeling with doing something, but if you've ever seen a pack of dogs, you'll notice that despite getting into a fight, rarely will they expel or ignore another dog. After the fight, they often forgive quickly and reaccept the dog into the pack because their instincts tell them that the greater the pack, the greater the chance of survival. The best way to train a dog is to teach is submissive behaviors. Hitting an dog, especially a dominate or aggressive one, may get you seriously hurt and the animal put down.

We have a dog that we trained by rewarding submissive behavior. She's rarely a problem, though like any animal or child, she's far from perfect. I've seen my in-laws raise dogs by punishing them only for bad behaivor. They don't exhibit any sort of control unless my father in law uses his scary voice. My wife and I can not only calmly control our dog, but she will obey other people as well. She was taught to be submissive, not that jumping on US was bad. When you teach a dog that jumping on you is bad, they may not jump on you, but all they've learned is that jumping on you will get them hit.

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1793

Otacon wrote: If a dog does something wrong, a slap to the head make them realize that they shouldn't do that again. It's not like the slap will hurt the dog.

exactly. a slight slap to the head or nose will make the dog realize it has done something wrong, but i don't think hitting a dog will get you anywhere.

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15039 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Random Evil Guy wrote: Otacon wrote: If a dog does something wrong, a slap to the head make them realize that they shouldn't do that again. It's not like the slap will hurt the dog.

exactly. a slight slap to the head or nose will make the dog realize it has done something wrong, but i don't think hitting a dog will get you anywhere.

You're right, and that's because good training is not about making the dog realize it did something wrong, it's about teaching them what to do right.

Free Thinkr · Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject:

00timh wrote: I watched a show once where a professional dog trainer was brought in to help with really bad dogs. The guy was a genious. While he did not hit dogs, he had great ways of controlling them. He was stern with them and said basically that a dog must know its bounderies. Usually a choker is the best thing for serious problems. it gets their attention quick but without any prolonged pain.
Yeah, I think you're thinking of The Dog Whisperer. His techniques are great, and they even work on Cartman. :lol:

Golden Child · Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Posts: 28 Location: Florida

perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: That's because you don't know anything about training dogs.

So what are your feelings about spanking kids?

What does training dogs have to do with spanking kids?

Same basic principle. Use of pain to change/modify behavior. I have no problem with either spanking kids or using hitting as a punishment when training dogs. Pain to change behavior, IMHO, is a good last resort. Also, watch a mama dog with her puppies. She uses pain when appropriate.

Completely different. A human child has more thinking capacity and reasoning than a dog. Dogs should never be physically hit. They don't know what is happening and it can have an adverse effect. I had a pit bull when I was like 8 and I tried this dumb ass tactic. Long story short, we had to give him away.

Spanking your own child is okay. Hitting or spanking a dog is not. They have no clue what or why you are hurting them.

You could also severly hurt the dog if you hit it if you are a dumbass, again me when I was young.

THE best trained dogs are never hit.

Gdawg007 wrote: You're right, and that's because good training is not about making the dog realize it did something wrong, it's about teaching them what to do right.
Exactly.

The most in terms of physical punishment is taps like someone said above me. Usually just giving them time out when they do something bad and giving them a treat when they do something good is sufficient enough.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Free Thinkr wrote: 00timh wrote: I watched a show once where a professional dog trainer was brought in to help with really bad dogs. The guy was a genious. While he did not hit dogs, he had great ways of controlling them. He was stern with them and said basically that a dog must know its bounderies. Usually a choker is the best thing for serious problems. it gets their attention quick but without any prolonged pain.
Yeah, I think you're thinking of The Dog Whisperer. His techniques are great, and they even work on Cartman. :lol:

Cesar Milan knows his stuff!
More people should watch his show and be educated.
PS - The SP Cartman Meets Cesar episode was hilarious!

Free Thinkr · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:24 am Post subject:

toddytodd wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: 00timh wrote: I watched a show once where a professional dog trainer was brought in to help with really bad dogs. The guy was a genious. While he did not hit dogs, he had great ways of controlling them. He was stern with them and said basically that a dog must know its bounderies. Usually a choker is the best thing for serious problems. it gets their attention quick but without any prolonged pain.
Yeah, I think you're thinking of The Dog Whisperer. His techniques are great, and they even work on Cartman. :lol:

Cesar Milan knows his stuff!
More people should watch his show and be educated.
People should damn near be required to watch his show if they're going to get a dog. Seriously, the annoying barking and bad behavior the seeming majority of dogs constantly engage in is inexcusable; you want to get mad at the dog, but the owner is to blame.

Quote: PS - The SP Cartman Meets Cesar episode was hilarious!
Hell yeah, good stuff.