Political Crossfire Forums

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 12156 Location: idaho

fiction416 wrote: lilwolf wrote: slitedeviance wrote: lilwolf wrote: If you condone terrorists then you are no better than they are.

Ah! Nice to see how well you stop to address the situation. I'm assuming it goes like this in your head...

Terrorist - Kills innocent people and children for no reason other than hatred. Bad! Must burn in the lake of fire.

fiction416 - Mentions that he understands the reasons why terrorism happens. Bad! Must burn in the lake of fire.

You've condoned the killing of innocent people on this forum as long as it acheives a somewhat unclear objective. So by your logic you're as bad as the terrorists as well.

First off I have not condoned the killing of innocent people in the least. A terrorist is not innocent in any legal fashion or defination of the word.

They are deliberatly killing innocent people and doing so for their own gain or whatever they do it for.
If I were killing terrorists my clear goal would be to hunt them down and kill them. To do it in a deliberate fashion that purposely tagets innocent people is wrong absolutely. But if the terroriste and in this case is the Hezbollah then they need to be hunted down and eradicated. They are not innocent and there fore eliminating them is not an unclear objective.

Okay, but define that... Define Terrorist, Define Innocent, Define Legal. And then explain how they work in that sentence of yours above?

Furthermore, please explain to me the dead children, who were killed by the IDF, while bombing a house @ night, while all were sleeping, in this hypothetical example of mine.

Who approved these people terrorists?
What crime did they commint?
When did they get the chance to defend themselves?
Who is taking accountability for the dead children?

Can you not see, how this type of behavior, is terrorism, too?

PS: can you link me to the Internationally agreed upon term for defining a terrorist, please?

I f youwish legal terms I could give you an entire discourse on legalities of terrorism, but somehow I doubt that I would get it across well. But in a nut shell. A terrorist is a person or persons that willfully and wantingly inflict fear and or destruction upon an enemy. Any actions therefore that inflict said injuries upon the innocent by hiding with or within buildoing, or establishments constitutes terrorism by association.

Innocent legally and clearly refers to those that have been deliberatly targetd by those in a position of power. The point in that is deliberate. This is ans has always been what hezbollah has done for many years now. There acts of deliberate targeting of innocent people in border towns constitutes terrorism and injuring the innocent by a deliberate action or purpose.

I clearly say that a person who is deliberate in their attempt to target people who are innocent by either place and posititon are legally innocent. By doing so the terrorist (Hezbollah) loses innocence in that they are deliberate in their targeting and will full intent to endanger their own people by hiding among innocent civilians. Therefore legally they are terrorists and as such must either be captured and charged, tried, and if found guilty punished in accordance to the holding nations laws.

Since all of the hez supporters here are talking about the F-16 hitting a building. Perhaps we shall never know why that building was targeted. But given the long and successful record of non deliberate targeting of terror strongholds and known and confirmed sites I would venture to say that it is is within the realm of logic given the Hez's past actions that it was or had been a prior location for hezzbollah. Either that or they placed dead bodies in the site after it had been hit. That has been proven time and again to have happened. In fact there is a thread here in this forum about a guy wearing a green helmet setting the stage for a filming which was meant to slander the Israelis and it backfired.

skinn · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 426 Location: beirut

Varyag wrote: skinn wrote: lilwolf wrote: This is where I want to see Nassarallah. and all of the ilk that target innocent people in Israel or where ever. They are terrorists and deserve this. I do not glorify killing but there are times when it needs to be done.

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yeah, 1200 times in lebanon in the past months, among them 500 times on children under 12 years old. damn those children terrorists, they are the most dangerous.

You get what you vote for, maybe all the dead people will make them think twice about voting for the hezbollah again. Then again muslims never learn do they? Hezbollah was launching rockets as Israel and its civilian population, Israel reapeatedly warned them to stop, they didn't, Israel kicked their ass, end of story. I do feel sorry for the non-muslim Lebanese in the crossfire though. How the christians and atheists of Lebanon even live with the muslims is beyond me, time for another civil war to sort the country out properly.

you feel sorry for the non-muslims only... yeah because MUSLIMS DESERVE TO DIE :twisted: . HAHAHAH

yeah, civil war, this is your wish for lebanon, and this is israel's wish for lebanon. but it won't happen again mate, the majority of leb christians and atheists fave no problem with the muslims, i am a christian-born atheist, and i have no problem with muslims.

Rankor and Pissing · Joined: 04 Mar 2006 Posts: 9046

Plato & Socrates wrote: lilwolf wrote: This is where I want to see Nassarallah. and all of the ilk that target innocent people in Israel or where ever. They are terrorists and deserve this. I do not glorify killing but there are times when it needs to be done.

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Would you aim that same crosshair at those Israel soldiers who shoot Palestinian children going to school? On the justification of crossing a fence not meant to be crossed. These soldiers being 50 metres aways in the army watch tower, under no direct threat, under the defense of just following orders?

Assassination has such a bad rap! It's got a very long and glorious history I'll have you know! Why, the English through the centuries have used it very effectively, as have all civilizations and still do. We're just oh so civilized that we find it "offensive" to eliminate one's enemy now do we? Fighting human nature always puts one at the loosing end of the battle.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

lilwolf wrote: A terrorist is a person or persons that willfully and wantingly inflict fear and or destruction upon an enemy.

A) Define enemy, in the context of your statement above
B) according to your definition above, you have just included the USA & Israel.

lilwolf wrote: Any actions therefore that inflict said injuries upon the innocent by hiding with or within buildoing, or establishments constitutes terrorism by association.

LOL

lilwolf wrote: Innocent legally and clearly refers to those that have been deliberatly targetd by those in a position of power.

WTF?

No really, wtf do you mean here?

I thought everyone was innocent until proven guilty by a court of law... do you NOT agree with that?

lilwolf wrote: The point in that is deliberate. This is ans has always been what hezbollah has done for many years now.

Who says we are just talking about JUST Hezbollah....

lilwolf wrote: There acts of deliberate targeting of innocent people in border towns constitutes terrorism and injuring the innocent by a deliberate action or purpose.

They targeted soldiers, remember?

Then after Israel assaulted civilians, Hezbollah came onto TV & said: "you want a war, we will give you a war"

Do you forget all this already>?

lilwolf wrote: I clearly say that a person who is deliberate in their attempt to target people who are innocent

But everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law

lilwolf wrote: By doing so the terrorist (Hezbollah) loses innocence in that they are deliberate in their targeting and will full intent to endanger their own people by hiding among innocent civilians.

Actually Hezbollah support is at an all time high in Lebanon, from what i understand

lilwolf wrote: Therefore legally they are terrorists and as such must either be captured and charged, tried, and if found guilty punished in accordance to the holding nations laws.

Legal according to who?

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 12156 Location: idaho

fiction416 wrote: lilwolf wrote: A terrorist is a person or persons that willfully and wantingly inflict fear and or destruction upon an enemy.

A) Define enemy, in the context of your statement aboveAny actions

B) according to your definition above, you have just included the USA & Israel.

lilwolf wrote: therefore that inflict said injuries upon the innocent by hiding with or within buildoing, or establishments constitutes terrorism by association.

LOL

lilwolf wrote: Innocent legally and clearly refers to those that have been deliberatly targetd by those in a position of power.

WTF?

No really, wtf do you mean here?

I thought everyone was innocent until proven guilty by a court of law... do you NOT agree with that?

lilwolf wrote: The point in that is deliberate. This is ans has always been what hezbollah has done for many years now.

Who says we are just talking about JUST Hezbollah....

lilwolf wrote: There acts of deliberate targeting of innocent people in border towns constitutes terrorism and injuring the innocent by a deliberate action or purpose.

They targeted soldiers, remember?

Then after Israel assaulted civilians, Hezbollah came onto TV & said: "you want a war, we will give you a war"

Do you forget all this already>?

lilwolf wrote: I clearly say that a person who is deliberate in their attempt to target people who are innocent

But everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law

lilwolf wrote: By doing so the terrorist (Hezbollah) loses innocence in that they are deliberate in their targeting and will full intent to endanger their own people by hiding among innocent civilians.

Actually Hezbollah support is at an all time high in Lebanon, from what i understand

lilwolf wrote: Therefore legally they are terrorists and as such must either be captured and charged, tried, and if found guilty punished in accordance to the holding nations laws.

Legal according to who?

First off you asked and you got my definations and that is all that needs said. There is no spin on it at all and to do so would make you look rather dumb so there you go... No spin on it from you.

To further add here: Define an enemy... from a military POV it applies to a combatant that is either in the nation that is waging a said war against an opposing nation. Either they are in uniform or not makes klittle difference in the context of the Hezbollah.

Israel and the US cannot be in that category be cause for one Israel has been attacked pepeatedly by the Hez and other terrorist org for a good long time.
The US cannot be in that category either in that we went to war with an armed enemy and in uniform, the said army was destroyed and then we were attacked by terrorists in civilian clothing. No dofference in the terrorist except locations. You spun that one and failed to produce.

The Hez and other terrorist orgs do consistantly hide and blend in with innocent civilians for the purpose of attacking any one that is opposing them and their attempts at taking over. They have no regard for the innocent life they willfully place in danger.

Innocent is refering to people that are placed in a situation willfully by the terrorist orgs. What part of that are you not getting there?

Terrorist by purpose of demonstration are innocent yes till proven guilty, and are subject to laws of the holdong nation. How ever if they are terrorists and are caught in the act per say they are still innocent till proven. None the less they will almost always be sentenced to death and rightly so.

We are talking about the Hez because that is what this thread is all about one terrorist or in my book all of them. You may choose to place them anywhere you wish but the fact of the matter is as follows:
The terrorists do nothing more than target innocent civilians and have done so from various points over looking civilian strongholds and housing areas in Israel and they have deliberatly trageted those said households and people. Hence the term terrorists. If that is not clear to you now I am not sure you need to be in politics.

The hezbollah does not target soldiers in their attackes per say as the only target. They have maintained the same practice of sending Katusha missles into small border towns that have limited or no military bases and or structures in them and you know this.
I again clearly say this in terms perhaps you will understand:
Any person that deliberatly targets innocent persons that are non aligned with anything that is threatening is a terrorist. Pure and simple Hezbollah fits the bill.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

fiction out of pure morbid intriuge do you deny that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with over 600 killed Panamnians, British, American, Argentinian, Israeli, French, and Lebanese people to their name? From the bombings of French and American peacekeepers and civilians in Beirut, to the AMIA bombings in Argentina they have cut a bloody swathe.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

superskippy wrote: fiction out of pure morbid intriuge do you deny that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with over 600 killed Panamnians, British, American, Argentinian, Israeli, French, and Lebanese people to their name? From the bombings of French and American peacekeepers and civilians in Beirut, to the AMIA bombings in Argentina they have cut a bloody swathe.

As I understand it, 5-6 countries consider hezbollah to be a terrorist org.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 12156 Location: idaho

fiction416 wrote: superskippy wrote: fiction out of pure morbid intriuge do you deny that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with over 600 killed Panamnians, British, American, Argentinian, Israeli, French, and Lebanese people to their name? From the bombings of French and American peacekeepers and civilians in Beirut, to the AMIA bombings in Argentina they have cut a bloody swathe.

As I understand it, 5-6 countries consider hezbollah to be a terrorist org.

Hence my argument is further strengthened here fiction. These are innocent people that were targeted and murdered by the Hezbollah and they are terrorists in every sense of the word and terminology. Any further arguments on their classification?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

That isnt what I asked, do you recognized their responsability for their series of sordid terrorist attacks? The most recent AMIA bombing, the Panamanian plane bombing, and the London embassy bombings are all attacks carried out by Hezbollah with a combined 300 dead. Argentina has been pursueing Hezbollah members wanted for years and has many arrest warrents in circulation, Britian does as well and has been aiding along with Panama the hunt for these terrorists. The Hezbollah bomber in the AMIA bombing was also indentified by Argentina's SIDE as Ibrahim Hussein Berro the bastard has a plaque honoring him and his family has economic security courtesy of his pension by Hezbollah. The mastermind Hezbollah liuetenant Imad Fayez Mugniyah, he has multiple arrest warrents attached to his name. He is also wanted for other attacks on American targets.

I could go on with more attacks if you wish, but what I'm asking you from a moral standpoint is that do you recognize their terrorist actions? I cannot continue to debate with you in good faith as I have if you cannot recognize that fact.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

lilwolf wrote: [Any further arguments on their classification?

Yes, actuually.

They are a political group
They are a part of Gov't
They were elected fairly by the people
They offer social programs to all religions
They offer social welfare to all religions
They build schools & other community ammenities
Etc....

They are part of Lebanese society - They are more than just a terrorist group, they have a military wing, and that should be clearly distinguished.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 12156 Location: idaho

fiction416 wrote: lilwolf wrote: [Any further arguments on their classification?

Yes, actuually.

They are a political group
They are a part of Gov't
They were elected fairly by the people
They offer social programs to all religions
They offer social welfare to all religions
They build schools & other community ammenities
Etc....

They are part of Lebanese society - They are more than just a terrorist group, they have a military wing, and that should be clearly distinguished.

What ever you wish to call them fine.... i will continue to refer to them as a terorist organization and as such I will constantly speak for their demise and overthrow. If I were 10 years younger I would go to Israel and support them all I could in the extermination of the Hezbollah and all other terrorist orgs. That is the honest truth. :-|

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15676 Location: On Earth

lilwolf wrote: This is where I want to see Nassarallah. and all of the ilk that target innocent people in Israel or where ever. They are terrorists and deserve this. I do not glorify killing but there are times when it needs to be done.

Great! :-D

I have a few names that come to mind:
Ariel Sharon... Yitzhak Rabin (yeah, he was that bad, but he's dead)... Moshe Ya'alon... Dan Halutz... Amir Peretz... I have other names, but yeah, we both are on the same track, I guess. :-D

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 12156 Location: idaho

Saracen wrote: lilwolf wrote: This is where I want to see Nassarallah. and all of the ilk that target innocent people in Israel or where ever. They are terrorists and deserve this. I do not glorify killing but there are times when it needs to be done.

Great! :-D

I have a few names that come to mind:
Ariel Sharon... Yitzhak Rabin (yeah, he was that bad, but he's dead)... Moshe Ya'alon... Dan Halutz... Amir Peretz... I have other names, but yeah, we both are on the same track, I guess. :-D

I rather doubt those names fit in with the defination of a terrorist.... but the name Yasser Arafat fits quite well.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Fiction
Quote: They are part of Lebanese society - They are more than just a terrorist group, they have a military wing, and that should be clearly distinguished.
For a minute lets say that the Green party in the US had a part of it that carried out acts of terrorism like Hamas and a part of it that was just politcal. Now they are blowing up people, kidnapping people, etc..... and while not all of them are doing this there are some that are attempting to just basically be politicans carrying out the goals of the terrorist group politically.

Regardless if they were physically taking part in the terrorism the political heads themselves would also be terrorists as they are working for the same group, have the same goal, and clearly support the military wing.

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

lilwolf wrote: Saracen wrote: lilwolf wrote: This is where I want to see Nassarallah. and all of the ilk that target innocent people in Israel or where ever. They are terrorists and deserve this. I do not glorify killing but there are times when it needs to be done.

Great! :-D

I have a few names that come to mind:
Ariel Sharon... Yitzhak Rabin (yeah, he was that bad, but he's dead)... Moshe Ya'alon... Dan Halutz... Amir Peretz... I have other names, but yeah, we both are on the same track, I guess. :-D

I rather doubt those names fit in with the defination of a terrorist.... but the name Yasser Arafat fits quite well.

guys dont fight.... i have the best exemple of a terrorist :D:
Georges W Bush :!?:

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: guys dont fight.... i have the best exemple of a terrorist :D:
Georges W Bush
Why is he a terrorist?

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

i say y go through each and every1 of those links....

- http://www.president-bush.com/iraqi-freedom.html (i recommend thsi one)

- http://www.bushwatch.com/dwi2.htm
- http://talkleft.com/new_archives/011437.html
- http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/04/30/bush_challenges_hundreds_of_laws/
- http://www.president-bush.com/gwbush.html

- http://www.president-bush.com/dubya419.html

there is plenty more.... anyway one is enough to prove hes a criminal a terrorist and should be charged for war crimes!!!

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Ali
Quote: there is plenty more.... anyway one is enough to prove hes a criminal a terrorist and should be charged for war crimes!!!
Ok lets check out your nice little list ya got for me.

Quote: http://www.president-bush.com/iraqi-freedom.html (i recommend thsi one)
That is your big peice of Bush being a war criminal? You see the problem with that claim is that he has on many occasions publicaly condemed those actions. Also you should bring about the simple fact the soldiers involved were punished by the United States for the acts they committed.
Of course we could compare to your President whom fully supports Hezbollah. A group that is connected to many terrorist attacks carried out over the years: Quote: Lahoud cited a Lebanese poll claiming that Hezbollah has the support of 86 per cent of the country in its battle with Israel. He hailed Nasrallah for his campaign the past several years to fight for the rights of the southern Lebanese.
Source

Quote: http://www.bushwatch.com/dwi2.htm
Your article about Bush drunk driving is evidence he is a terrorist indeed.....
:lol:

Quote: http://talkleft.com/new_archives/011437.html
An article about the President calling the CIA leak a criminal act...what does that have to do with war crimes?
Your just rolling in great evidence here....

Quote: - http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/04/30/bush_challenges_ hundreds_of_laws/
Dang you got me.... Bush is challenging laws in the United States... oh wait yet again that does not support your terrorist claim....

Quote: http://www.president-bush.com/gwbush.html
Wow pictures of Bush and monkeys.... Man you've got me backed into a corner here.... I don't know how to "spin" all this evidence that clearly shows Bush is a terrorist! :lol:

Quote: http://www.president-bush.com/dubya419.html
Wow a fake email from Bush.... another swing and a miss from good ole Ali.

Ali you ever play baseball? Well you get three strikes then your out.....you just took six swings and well the ball is still on the tea.

Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

skinn wrote: Varyag wrote: skinn wrote: lilwolf wrote: This is where I want to see Nassarallah. and all of the ilk that target innocent people in Israel or where ever. They are terrorists and deserve this. I do not glorify killing but there are times when it needs to be done.

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yeah, 1200 times in lebanon in the past months, among them 500 times on children under 12 years old. damn those children terrorists, they are the most dangerous.

You get what you vote for, maybe all the dead people will make them think twice about voting for the hezbollah again. Then again muslims never learn do they? Hezbollah was launching rockets as Israel and its civilian population, Israel reapeatedly warned them to stop, they didn't, Israel kicked their ass, end of story. I do feel sorry for the non-muslim Lebanese in the crossfire though. How the christians and atheists of Lebanon even live with the muslims is beyond me, time for another civil war to sort the country out properly.

you feel sorry for the non-muslims only... yeah because MUSLIMS DESERVE TO DIE :twisted: . HAHAHAH

yeah, civil war, this is your wish for lebanon, and this is israel's wish for lebanon. but it won't happen again mate, the majority of leb christians and atheists fave no problem with the muslims, i am a christian-born atheist, and i have no problem with muslims.

Then your country may not have a future, if Iran pushes their pet dog hezbollah to bite too hard, Israel as a powerful and sovereign state will defend itself as necessary, and that may include wiping out hezbollah once and for all, and given the way hezbollah fights, hides and uses human shields, that will probably include alot of non-hezbollah Lebanon too. Either the Lebanese get rid of hezbollah and do it cleanly, or Israel comes in and does it for you, and that will be messy. Its called realpolitik, not zionism, look it up, mate (mate? you australian or something?).

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 12156 Location: idaho

Varyag wrote: skinn wrote: Varyag wrote: skinn wrote: lilwolf wrote: This is where I want to see Nassarallah. and all of the ilk that target innocent people in Israel or where ever. They are terrorists and deserve this. I do not glorify killing but there are times when it needs to be done.

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yeah, 1200 times in lebanon in the past months, among them 500 times on children under 12 years old. damn those children terrorists, they are the most dangerous.

You get what you vote for, maybe all the dead people will make them think twice about voting for the hezbollah again. Then again muslims never learn do they? Hezbollah was launching rockets as Israel and its civilian population, Israel reapeatedly warned them to stop, they didn't, Israel kicked their ass, end of story. I do feel sorry for the non-muslim Lebanese in the crossfire though. How the christians and atheists of Lebanon even live with the muslims is beyond me, time for another civil war to sort the country out properly.

you feel sorry for the non-muslims only... yeah because MUSLIMS DESERVE TO DIE :twisted: . HAHAHAH

yeah, civil war, this is your wish for lebanon, and this is israel's wish for lebanon. but it won't happen again mate, the majority of leb christians and atheists fave no problem with the muslims, i am a christian-born atheist, and i have no problem with muslims.

Then your country may not have a future, if Iran pushes their pet dog hezbollah to bite too hard, Israel as a powerful and sovereign state will defend itself as necessary, and that may include wiping out hezbollah once and for all, and given the way hezbollah fights, hides and uses human shields, that will probably include alot of non-hezbollah Lebanon too. Either the Lebanese get rid of hezbollah and do it cleanly, or Israel comes in and does it for you, and that will be messy. Its called realpolitik, not zionism, look it up, mate (mate? you australian or something?).

You can count on it that Iran lost alot of their missles that they gave to a terrorist group and the next time the hezbollah let their ass overide their common sense it is not going to be allowed and that will mark the begining of the end for the Hez. Might not be a bad idea in itself all in all.
Israel is not going to take it from the like of a lunatic in Iran either. Iraq thought and talked tough about Israel not being able to touch them and we all know what happened there. Iraq lost its nuke plants. Israel could do the same thing and just might.