Political Crossfire Forums

[Decypher]

I just read the thread on which side one might have fought on in the American civil war and decided to steal the idea and apply it to the Irish civil war.

Brief summary to those unfamiliar with the conflict: After the Anglo-Irish War (1919-1921) a treaty was negotiated with the British which declared an Irish Free State. This state established a state of 26 counties which would have it's own parliment but was still a loyal to the commonwealth and would swear allegiance to the King.

A slender majority of Irish TDs (members of parliment) supported the treaty but others saw it as a sell-out which would never achieve independence.

A civil war broke out which was won by the pro-treaty side.

This is a very simple history, for more info go to the wikipedia article here.

Anyway which side would you have fought on? If you were Irish obviously.

[De Bhaldraithe]

Anti-treaty.

For the reasons you have stated, i.e.

1. It was a sell out which hasn't yet achieved independence.

2. It established an illegitimate state consisting of 26 counties. Ireland has 32.

3. The Free Staters had to swear an oath of allegiance to a foreign king.

[bob.appleyard]

De Bhaldraithe wrote: 2. It established an illegitimate state consisting of 26 counties. Ireland has 32.

Fair enough with your points, but what on Earth does the number of counties have to do with legitemacy?

[thundertaker]

De Bhaldraithe wrote: Anti-treaty.

For the reasons you have stated, i.e.

1. It was a sell out which hasn't yet achieved independence.

2. It established an illegitimate state consisting of 26 counties. Ireland has 32.

3. The Free Staters had to swear an oath of allegiance to a foreign king.

Unfortunately, When there are two large, well-armed camps fairly evenly matched, the best solution is to compromise, otherwise there would have been bloodshed on a massive scale between protestants and catholics.....

[De Bhaldraithe]

bob.appleyard wrote: De Bhaldraithe wrote: 2. It established an illegitimate state consisting of 26 counties. Ireland has 32.

Fair enough with your points, but what on Earth does the number of counties have to do with legitemacy?

It's pretty much what it says on the tin. A small portion in the north east of the country was hacked off and kept. Northern Ireland was never a country before partition - it was a dreamt up random line drawn on a map.

[De Bhaldraithe]

thundertaker wrote: De Bhaldraithe wrote: Anti-treaty.

For the reasons you have stated, i.e.

1. It was a sell out which hasn't yet achieved independence.

2. It established an illegitimate state consisting of 26 counties. Ireland has 32.

3. The Free Staters had to swear an oath of allegiance to a foreign king.

Unfortunately, When there are two large, well-armed camps fairly evenly matched, the best solution is to compromise, otherwise there would have been bloodshed on a massive scale between protestants and catholics.....

There has been anyway. And there was in the years after partition.

[thundertaker]

De Bhaldraithe wrote: thundertaker wrote: De Bhaldraithe wrote: Anti-treaty.

For the reasons you have stated, i.e.

1. It was a sell out which hasn't yet achieved independence.

2. It established an illegitimate state consisting of 26 counties. Ireland has 32.

3. The Free Staters had to swear an oath of allegiance to a foreign king.

Unfortunately, When there are two large, well-armed camps fairly evenly matched, the best solution is to compromise, otherwise there would have been bloodshed on a massive scale between protestants and catholics.....

There has been anyway. And there was in the years after partition.

Are you suggesting we should have just pulled out and let the paddies kill each other over religious sectarianism on a huge scale? Much as that might have been preferential to the British national interest, more people would have died over Northern Ireland than the comparatively low-level violence they have suffered over the past 80 years or so...

[De Bhaldraithe]

thundertaker wrote:
Are you suggesting we should have just pulled out and let the paddies kill each other over religious sectarianism on a huge scale? Much as that might have been preferential to the British national interest, more people would have died over Northern Ireland than the comparatively low-level violence they have suffered over the past 80 years or so...

No, I'm just suggesting that it was an illegal and illegitimate partition - by all rights you shouldn't have been there in the first place but there's no point in trawling back over old footsteps with that argument.

And by the way, the religious sectarianism here in the occupied six counties of the north east of Ireland has come about as a direct result of British interference, so despite what you might think, the "paddies" wouldn't have been killing each other based on religion.

And you're right, leaving then would have been in your interest. I'm sure the government of today is blasting the name of Lloyd George to hell for not getting rid of this God-forsaken hell hole when he had then chance. However, you boys made the mess, so you have the responsibility to clean it up. Sin é.

[AKAMad]

De Bhaldraithe wrote: thundertaker wrote:
Are you suggesting we should have just pulled out and let the paddies kill each other over religious sectarianism on a huge scale? Much as that might have been preferential to the British national interest, more people would have died over Northern Ireland than the comparatively low-level violence they have suffered over the past 80 years or so...

No, I'm just suggesting that it was an illegal and illegitimate partition - by all rights you shouldn't have been there in the first place but there's no point in trawling back over old footsteps with that argument.

And by the way, the religious sectarianism here in the occupied six counties of the north east of Ireland has come about as a direct result of British interference, so despite what you might think, the "paddies" wouldn't have been killing each other based on religion.

And you're right, leaving then would have been in your interest. I'm sure the government of today is blasting the name of Lloyd George to hell for not getting rid of this God-forsaken hell hole when he had then chance. However, you boys made the mess, so you have the responsibility to clean it up. Sin é.

Sure, we will clean up the mess of Irishmen butchering each other, but the day you get your United Ireland, is the day you will have to live in it.
I know this will come as a big surprise to an Irishman, but the British don't have to let enemy aliens into their country, or even allow those present to stay. I am sure that Britain could cope with the refugees you would ethnically-cleanse, but could Ireland ?

[Ra]

Quote: Anti-treaty.

For the reasons you have stated, i.e.

1. It was a sell out which hasn't yet achieved independence.

2. It established an illegitimate state consisting of 26 counties. Ireland has 32.

3. The Free Staters had to swear an oath of allegiance to a foreign king.

A sell out, You seem (I could be wrong) to have overlooked the fact that the nation voted in favour of the treaty.
As you can tell I would have been pro treaty, yes it wasn't everything we wanted but it is best to take what (at the time) appeared to be the best available.

Quote: Sure, we will clean up the mess of Irishmen butchering each other, but the day you get your United Ireland, is the day you will have to live in it.
I know this will come as a big surprise to an Irishman, but the British don't have to let enemy aliens into their country, or even allow those present to stay. I am sure that Britain could cope with the refugees you would ethnically-cleanse, but could Ireland ?

Yes we would have to live in it and I for one (Irish serviceman) do not want to have to patrol that hole. As for aliens I'm afraid those E.U. treaties you are signed up to means that you can't get rid of any E.U. citizen save they have commited a crime serious enough to warrant deportation. Lest you forget you have enough difficulty handling ilegals from outside E.U.
As for ethnic cleansing where exactly did that spring from.

[maxtsu]

AKAMad wrote: ... but the British don't have to let enemy aliens into their country, or even allow those present to stay. I am sure that Britain could cope with the refugees you would ethnically-cleanse, but could Ireland ?
I do not understand your statement here...
"the British don't have to let enemy aliens into their country"
If you are referring to Irish people Éire or NI, then your wrong.
Because EU laws allow all EU citizens to travel freely.

[De Bhaldraithe]

maxtsu wrote: AKAMad wrote: ... but the British don't have to let enemy aliens into their country, or even allow those present to stay. I am sure that Britain could cope with the refugees you would ethnically-cleanse, but could Ireland ?
I do not understand your statement here...
"the British don't have to let enemy aliens into their country"
If you are referring to Irish people Éire or NI, then your wrong.
Because EU laws allow all EU citizens to travel freely.

Even still I don't know why you say that. Where would the ethnic cleansing happen? Are you assuming that as a result of a united Ireland, all Protestants or perhaps unionists would be thrown out of the country?

[Ra]

De Bhaldraithe,
While a united Ireland is all well and good in theory have you considered the implications for the defence forces and Gardai. The governments track record in properly funding these 2 areas is woeful at best and with the equivalent to an extra brigade area for the armed forces that would be something of a strain. The naval service would require most likely 2 new vessel's bringing fleet size to 10 to cover the extra sea space and a further 1,000 soldiers to form a new brigade (3rd Northern) would be needed. Then there's the gardai, they are undermanned as it is and now an extra provincial area of responsibility.
My point being that we need to think about more than what would look good or what would be from some views "the right thing to do". As for genocide as mentioned by another I do not see that as one of the problems a united Ireland could create.