Political Crossfire Forums

[Plodder]

Im talking about speech not vandalism/ violence.
For example. Gibson= speech
knocking over headstones=vandalism
harming physically in anyway=violence
Vandalism and violence should always be punished.

I do not hate Jews by the way. I know jews. I may dislike some of them but i have jewish friends as well. Also please do not start cursing at me because im asking this question. i want a discussion not a mud pit please i sincerily belive that its important to know why people in europe are jailed for holocaust denial. among other things.

I am agaist Israel's actions and their creation in the 30's. I accept that they are a sovriegn state and they obviously proved that they are and they are there to stay. I only pray for peace there now.

[cap'n queasy]

I guess anti-semitism is happening in South America now too.

It's spreading rapidly.

[Mailech]

I was not aware that people where being incarcerated for Holocaust denial. Could you provide a link to back up that assertion.

[psholtz]

Mailech wrote: I was not aware that people where being incarcerated for Holocaust denial. Could you provide a link to back up that assertion.
It happens all the time in France, Germany, Austria, etc..

And it doesn't even happen for what should rightfully be termed Holocaust "denial".. The people who are jailed don't DENY that the Holocaust occured, they merely deny or question certain "facts" concerning the Holocaust.. and for this they are sent to prison.

[to_frankie]

cap'n queasy wrote: I guess anti-semitism is happening in South America now too.

It's spreading rapidly.

maybe you should see how the Jewish community treats others in Peru and elsewhere in South America. There you will find the roots of your so-called anti-semitism.

[JimT]

In The Netherlands, where I live, holocaust denial is not allowed. However, people are not jailed for holocaust denial.

If someone wants to find out about the Holocaust, he/she can easily check the facts – it is well-documented. And if he/she wants to see with his/her own eyes what happened, he/she can easily visit one of the many preserved infamous Holocaust death camps like Sobibor; Auschwitz-Birkenau; Treblinka; Belzec; Mauthausen; Bergen-Belsen, Chelmno, etc.

If you are serious investigating, you can find the proof is everywhere. There's no need whatsoever to openly question the experiences of the Holocaust and its survivors who are living in the countries of Europe. Holocaust denial is not just a denial – it unnecessarily hurts people. However, as far as I know, in The Netherlands people are not jailed for holocaust denial.

[cap'n queasy]

to_frankie wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I guess anti-semitism is happening in South America now too.

It's spreading rapidly.

maybe you should see how the Jewish community treats others in Peru and elsewhere in South America. There you will find the roots of your so-called anti-semitism.

Maybe you should give me a link or something. I've never heard of any atrocities committed by Jewish folks in South America.

Quite a few committed against them I know about, though.

[Todd D.]

I find it absolutely deplorable that many European nations have banned anti-semetic speech, claiming that it does not fall under the concept of "free speech". The Gayssot Act makes it illegal to deny the Holocaust in France, it's illegal to discuss or own a copy of Mein Kampf in Germany, etc.

From the Wiki:
Quote: Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries: Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), the Czech Republic under section 261, France (Loi Gayssot), Germany (§ 130 (3) of the penal code) also the Auschwitzlüge law section 185, Lithuania, The Netherlands under articles 137c and 137e, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code). In addition, under Law 5710-1950 it is also illegal in Israel.

The following punishments are used with regards to Holocaust Denial Laws: Austria (min: six months, max: twenty years (violent), ten years (non-violent)), Belgium (min: fine, max: one year), Czech Republic (min: six months, max: two years), France (min: fine/one month, max: two years), Germany (min: fine/six months max: five years), Israel (min: one year, max: five years), Lithuania (min: fine/two years, max: ten years (violent)), Poland (min: fine/three months, max: three years), Romania (min: six months, max: three years (public offender), five years (public servant offender)), Slovakia (min: fine/one month, max: three years) and Switzerland (min: fine/one year, max: fifteen months).

So there you go, the penalties range from a fine to improsnment for non-violent holocaust denial.

Make no mistake, Anti-Semitism is both a morally bankrupt and intellectually devoid ideology that attracts only the ignorant and the idiotic. That, however, doesn't mean that you should persecute or charge with a crime anyone that dare espous such views.

[John]

Quote: So there you go, the penalties range from a fine to improsnment for non-violent holocaust denial.

Make no mistake, Anti-Semitism is both a morally bankrupt and intellectually devoid ideology that attracts only the ignorant and the idiotic. That, however, doesn't mean that you should persecute or charge with a crime anyone that dare espous such views.

I dunno. It seems pretty criminal to me to deny and spread the lie that the Holocaust didn't happen. It's so terrible what happened I think it should be a crime to treat what happened with such disrespect. It's worse than desecrating a grave in my opinion.

Freedom of speech has it’s limits.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: So there you go, the penalties range from a fine to improsnment for non-violent holocaust denial.

Make no mistake, Anti-Semitism is both a morally bankrupt and intellectually devoid ideology that attracts only the ignorant and the idiotic. That, however, doesn't mean that you should persecute or charge with a crime anyone that dare espous such views.

I dunno. It seems pretty criminal to me to deny and spread the lie that the Holocaust didn't happen. It's so terrible what happened I think it should be a crime to treat what happened with such disrespect. It's worse than desecrating a grave in my opinion.

Freedom of speech has it’s limits.
Freedom of speech has limits in the sense that you're not supposed to run into a theater and shout "fire"..

It doesn't have limits in terms of free expressions of ideas and concepts.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: Quote: So there you go, the penalties range from a fine to improsnment for non-violent holocaust denial.

Make no mistake, Anti-Semitism is both a morally bankrupt and intellectually devoid ideology that attracts only the ignorant and the idiotic. That, however, doesn't mean that you should persecute or charge with a crime anyone that dare espous such views.

I dunno. It seems pretty criminal to me to deny and spread the lie that the Holocaust didn't happen. It's so terrible what happened I think it should be a crime to treat what happened with such disrespect. It's worse than desecrating a grave in my opinion.

Freedom of speech has it’s limits.
Freedom of speech has limits in the sense that you're not supposed to run into a theater and shout "fire"..

It doesn't have limits in terms of free expressions of ideas and concepts.

We teach history to prevent repeating the same mistakes. Lying about something as horrible as the Holocaust is a criminal act against humanity. I'm sorry that you can't see something so basic.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: you're not supposed to run into a theater and shout "fire"..


I would put Holocaust denial in pretty much the same category of abusing free speech as running into a building and starting shouting "fire".

It disturbs the peace, it's inflammatory, and furthermore it's an attempt to rehabilitate the image of the Nazi regime. I can see why Europeans want it banned. It's their country, if that's how they want it, who are we to say otherwise? It's a horrible chapter in history and they want to get past it, not have it resurrected over and over. This I can understand.


Of course, in America I do not think Holocaust denial should be banned. That would be against our constitutionally protected right to free speech.

But, I think it is an uncouth opinion not deserving of any credibility.

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: Quote: So there you go, the penalties range from a fine to improsnment for non-violent holocaust denial.

Make no mistake, Anti-Semitism is both a morally bankrupt and intellectually devoid ideology that attracts only the ignorant and the idiotic. That, however, doesn't mean that you should persecute or charge with a crime anyone that dare espous such views.

I dunno. It seems pretty criminal to me to deny and spread the lie that the Holocaust didn't happen. It's so terrible what happened I think it should be a crime to treat what happened with such disrespect. It's worse than desecrating a grave in my opinion.

Freedom of speech has it’s limits.
Freedom of speech has limits in the sense that you're not supposed to run into a theater and shout "fire"..

It doesn't have limits in terms of free expressions of ideas and concepts.

We teach history to prevent repeating the same mistakes. Lying about something as horrible as the Holocaust is a criminal act against humanity. I'm sorry that you can't see something so basic.
What you think you know about the Holocaust is not "history" .. it would probably be better described as part fantasy and part fable, w/ some elements of truth mixed it for good measure. This is all the more appalling when you consider that there are any number of similar Holocausts, which have both occurred in history and which are currently ongoing, which totally and completely escape your attention b/c of all this undue attention paid to the "Jewish" Holocaust of WWII, even though they are going on right now under your nose.

I have in mind for instance the recent case of Bayer Pharmaceuticals which got caught KNOWINGLY -- and that has be stressed, KNOWINGLY -- mixing in HIV and Hepatitis and a range of other blood-born diseases into some of the blood drugs/products that the company sells. At least 100,000 people worldwide have been murdered so far in this corporate plan for genocide, and I'm sure those figures are being underreported. So it's not clear to me that you've learned much of anything from history or the Holocaust. More especially when Bayer even to this day names one of their top corporate prizes for "good research" after the Bayer employee who just happened to run the Auschwitz camp during WWII.

Besides, Jews were not the only victims of the Nazis in WWII anyway.

And it's not clear to me that Hitler was, in the grand scheme of things, much worse than Stalin and the mass murders that Stalin committed.. and bear in mind that Stalin was operating w/in a political structure that had historically speaking been dominated and controlled by Jews.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: you're not supposed to run into a theater and shout "fire"..


I would put Holocaust denial in pretty much the same category of abusing free speech as running into a building and starting shouting "fire".
Of course you would.

Even though by believing that, you've managed to completely contradict the point I was trying to make.. Good work.

Quote: It disturbs the peace, it's inflammatory, and furthermore it's an attempt to rehabilitate the image of the Nazi regime. I can see why Europeans want it banned. It's their country, if that's how they want it, who are we to say otherwise? It's a horrible chapter in history and they want to get past it, not have it resurrected over and over. This I can understand.
It's only inflammatory to liars and bigots.

If you know the truth, and you're comfortable w/ the truth, then why should lies matter? You know the truth, and you can easily peirce through the lies w/ your truth. It seems to me that people who get their feathers ruffled over this or any other issue for that matter, are precisely the ones who hold convinctions which they subconsciously know are false and incorrect.

Quote: Of course, in America I do not think Holocaust denial should be banned. That would be against our constitutionally protected right to free speech.

But, I think it is an uncouth opinion not deserving of any credibility.
Strictly speaking, free speech should not be banned anywhere. And strictly speaking, the Constitution doesn't protect any rights to free speech. It only makes sure that Congress will not attempt to pass laws abridging the free expression of speech. It's up to you to hold Congress to this standard, and make sure that the President, the courts, the States and any international authorities don't try to tread on that right.

Besides, free speech is a God-given right, not a civil right.

[Mailech]

psholtz wrote: Besides, free speech is a God-given right, not a civil right.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that G-d himself puts limits on free speech.

[psholtz]

Mailech wrote: psholtz wrote: Besides, free speech is a God-given right, not a civil right.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that G-d himself puts limits on free speech.
In the Jewish system, I believe there are laws concerning what may be "lawfully" spoken and what may not be.. what comes to my mind are the commandments not to blasphemesize the name of God, not to use the Lord's name in vain, to respect your mother and father (i.e., don't speak disrespectfully of them, etc).

Modern Jews even observe a prohibition against pronouncing the Tetragrammaton, although I'm not certain there's a Scriptural basis for this.

On the other hand, man does have Free Will. Man *may* use his gift of speech to blasphemize God if he so chooses, although man will in turn be forced to pay for such infractions against the Law of God even unto the uttermost farthing (i.e., eye for an eye, and so forth).

[programmusic]

No, Holocaust denial shouldn't be illegal in my opinion. But it doesn't have to do with the ADL and it's not the Jews making it illegal.

[psholtz]

programmusic wrote: No, Holocaust denial shouldn't be illegal in my opinion. But it doesn't have to do with the ADL and it's not the Jews making it illegal.
Did you see what the JDL did to David Cole after he published his research into the Holocaust?

[programmusic]

though they do rhyme, the JDL and the ADL are no the same thing.

And though they are Jews, they are not making Holocaut denial illegal in some European countries.

[psholtz]

programmusic wrote: though they do rhyme, the JDL and the ADL are no the same thing.

And though they are Jews, they are not making Holocaut denial illegal in some European countries.
Someone is making discussion of the facts concerning the Holocaust illegal in Europe.

The JDL and ADL generally speaking operate in America, however..