Political Crossfire Forums

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

So what do the Christian fundies make of this prophecy? The one about laying on your side for 390 days - one day for each year of Israel's sin.

For reference, the verses are:

Quote: 4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.

5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/eze004.htm

I think it's some pretty heavy prophesizing, and I've got my own ideas, but I'd like to see what the fundies have to say first.

Tetracide · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 4449 Location: California

I'm not a Christian, but I can tell you that many excerpts from the Bible and other religious texts from other religions are no longer adhered to in modern society. Our sense of right and wrong, as well as morality has developed over the years. For example, if someone steals, the punishment should not be the amputation of the hand.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Tetracide wrote: I'm not a Christian, but I can tell you that many excerpts from the Bible and other religious texts from other religions are no longer adhered to in modern society. Our sense of right and wrong, as well as morality has developed over the years. For example, if someone steals, the punishment should not be the amputation of the hand. Just because they aren't followed, doesn't mean its not right. Plus if I remember right to chop off a thief's hand isn't christian, but Hannibal's Code. Please don't confuse the two...

Tetracide · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 4449 Location: California

I didn't intend to. I'm just saying, some parts of every religion are not adhered to because they no longer fit into our modern sense of right and wrong.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8780

LetsGetReal wrote: Tetracide wrote: I'm not a Christian, but I can tell you that many excerpts from the Bible and other religious texts from other religions are no longer adhered to in modern society. Our sense of right and wrong, as well as morality has developed over the years. For example, if someone steals, the punishment should not be the amputation of the hand. Just because they aren't followed, doesn't mean its not right. Plus if I remember right to chop off a thief's hand isn't christian, but Hannibal's Code. Please don't confuse the two... The Code of Hammurabi

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Tetracide wrote: I didn't intend to. I'm just saying, some parts of every religion are not adhered to because they no longer fit into our modern sense of right and wrong.
I would argue that "right" and "wrong" transcends time..

There are certain things that are always right.. other things which are always wrong.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

What I'm trying to figure out this thread is what Christian fundies think of this prophecy (in Ezekiel).. Do they believe it's already been fulfilled? If so, who fulfilled it and when.. if not, then what does it mean? When will it be fulfilled?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

The way that I understood it (and I am a Jewish fundie) is that this is not a prophecy, it is a command from G-d. And Ezekiel did this. The purpose being two-fold. So that a righteous person like Ezekiel could "absord" some of the punishment that was meant for the Jews (and yes I can say Jews because we are talking about the Kingdom of Judah) so they should not be totally destroyed. The second is to teach by example. That is a very common theme in Ezekiel, that is found in some others as well, to do actions before the people, because actions speak louder than words.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Enoch wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Tetracide wrote: I'm not a Christian, but I can tell you that many excerpts from the Bible and other religious texts from other religions are no longer adhered to in modern society. Our sense of right and wrong, as well as morality has developed over the years. For example, if someone steals, the punishment should not be the amputation of the hand. Just because they aren't followed, doesn't mean its not right. Plus if I remember right to chop off a thief's hand isn't christian, but Hannibal's Code. Please don't confuse the two... The Code of Hammurabi Come on it was two early for me too get it right...

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Tetracide wrote: I didn't intend to. I'm just saying, some parts of every religion are not adhered to because they no longer fit into our modern sense of right and wrong. I would say that not all parts of Christianity are adhered to due to the iniquities of man, not Christianity. Right and Wrong have never changed, the only way it could would be to look at them with a jaded perception of reality.

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 20982 Location: Minnesota

Please stop using the term "fundies."

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: The way that I understood it (and I am a Jewish fundie) is that this is not a prophecy, it is a command from G-d. And Ezekiel did this. The purpose being two-fold. So that a righteous person like Ezekiel could "absord" some of the punishment that was meant for the Jews (and yes I can say Jews because we are talking about the Kingdom of Judah) so they should not be totally destroyed. The second is to teach by example. That is a very common theme in Ezekiel, that is found in some others as well, to do actions before the people, because actions speak louder than words.
Do you think that Alexander the Great fulfilled this prophecy?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: The way that I understood it (and I am a Jewish fundie) is that this is not a prophecy, it is a command from G-d. And Ezekiel did this. The purpose being two-fold. So that a righteous person like Ezekiel could "absord" some of the punishment that was meant for the Jews (and yes I can say Jews because we are talking about the Kingdom of Judah) so they should not be totally destroyed. The second is to teach by example. That is a very common theme in Ezekiel, that is found in some others as well, to do actions before the people, because actions speak louder than words.
Do you think that Alexander the Great fulfilled this prophecy?
How so?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: The way that I understood it (and I am a Jewish fundie) is that this is not a prophecy, it is a command from G-d. And Ezekiel did this. The purpose being two-fold. So that a righteous person like Ezekiel could "absord" some of the punishment that was meant for the Jews (and yes I can say Jews because we are talking about the Kingdom of Judah) so they should not be totally destroyed. The second is to teach by example. That is a very common theme in Ezekiel, that is found in some others as well, to do actions before the people, because actions speak louder than words.
Do you think that Alexander the Great fulfilled this prophecy?
How so?
The prophecy states that Israel will suffer for 390 years.

Israel (northern kingdom) fell in 721 BC.

721 BC + 390 = 331 BC, which is the year that Alexander the Great defeated the Persians.. Presumably, if the northern Israelite tribes had been deported into Assyria, they would sooner or later have come under the control of the Persians.

I'm not a big fan of Biblical prophecy, but I must confess that in this particular example, the years do seem to add up quite nicely.

Goggalor · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 18 Location: California

Tetracide wrote: I'm not a Christian, but I can tell you that many excerpts from the Bible and other religious texts from other religions are no longer adhered to in modern society. Our sense of right and wrong, as well as morality has developed over the years. For example, if someone steals, the punishment should not be the amputation of the hand.

That mode of thinking is basically a denial of Jesus, our Lord; and the commandmants God has set upon us, as to defer your own sins and to point blame to society. People can follow the divine word of God today just as they have for thousands of years, nothing has changed, except our perception of society and the rules in which we must live together as a community.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: The way that I understood it (and I am a Jewish fundie) is that this is not a prophecy, it is a command from G-d. And Ezekiel did this. The purpose being two-fold. So that a righteous person like Ezekiel could "absord" some of the punishment that was meant for the Jews (and yes I can say Jews because we are talking about the Kingdom of Judah) so they should not be totally destroyed. The second is to teach by example. That is a very common theme in Ezekiel, that is found in some others as well, to do actions before the people, because actions speak louder than words.
Do you think that Alexander the Great fulfilled this prophecy?
How so?
The prophecy states that Israel will suffer for 390 years.

Israel (northern kingdom) fell in 721 BC.

721 BC + 390 = 331 BC, which is the year that Alexander the Great defeated the Persians.. Presumably, if the northern Israelite tribes had been deported into Assyria, they would sooner or later have come under the control of the Persians.

I'm not a big fan of Biblical prophecy, but I must confess that in this particular example, the years do seem to add up quite nicely.
That is interesting, but the way I look at it, is that the 390 years are the years that the kingdom of Israel was occupied before they where expelled. The additional 40 years for the kingdom of Judah was for the addition 40 years befor they where exiled by Nebachadnetzar

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: That is interesting, but the way I look at it, is that the 390 years are the years that the kingdom of Israel was occupied before they where expelled. The additional 40 years for the kingdom of Judah was for the addition 40 years befor they where exiled by Nebachadnetzar
So you're saying that Israel was first occupied in 721 BC + 390 years = 1111 BC?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: That is interesting, but the way I look at it, is that the 390 years are the years that the kingdom of Israel was occupied before they where expelled. The additional 40 years for the kingdom of Judah was for the addition 40 years befor they where exiled by Nebachadnetzar
So you're saying that Israel was first occupied in 721 BC + 390 years = 1111 BC?
A little before that like 150 years. around 1270's

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: That is interesting, but the way I look at it, is that the 390 years are the years that the kingdom of Israel was occupied before they where expelled. The additional 40 years for the kingdom of Judah was for the addition 40 years befor they where exiled by Nebachadnetzar
So you're saying that Israel was first occupied in 721 BC + 390 years = 1111 BC?
A little before that like 150 years. around 1270's
So.... where are you going with the 390 years in the Ezekiel verse.. :think:

Just trying to follow you.. :-D

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

The 390 years are years where there was sin. There where good years in there. This is not a prophesy, it is a commandment. G-d is telling Ezekiel to afflict himself so as to mitigate the punishment that will be inflicted on the rest of the Jews.