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Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

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Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15676 Location: On Earth

Varyag wrote: Quote: EDIT: Saracen dont listen to Varyag, he is just hateful and filled with prejudice. you should just pity him for his ignorance and narrow mindedness.

Well I don't pity you for yours, in truth western civilzation has a history of culture, progress, intelligence and invention whilst Islam has been making people morons since 600AD. To which muslims like would ask about acceptance and diversity being a cornerstone of western civilization, to which I answer that western civilization is in no way compatible with the idiotism and illogic preached by your pedophilic prophet and perverted religion.

Yet, you have no idea about Muhammad (pbuh) himself. He was not a pedophile, and not a perverted person. If anything, Western culture has a lot of perversions, from my viewpoint. It's not perfect, as is everything in the world. All you're driven by is pure hate for Muslims and Arabs. If I were to use your language, it is known fact that Arabs and Muslims were building civilization while the Europeans, save for the Greeks and Romans, were literally scratching sticks.

Doesn't sound too nice, eh? Well, civilization is subjective, and I'd rather you do more careful research about Islam than come up with a ridiculous link like the one you presented, which has so many inaccuracies. Islam's paradise is very spiritual, as it is composed of a "materialism" that is unimaginable in Islam. Islam is 110% against homosexuality, as explained here. Furthermore, Islam is against mistreatment of women, as well as rape and plunder.

The only idiotism and illogic I see is your allegations against Islam.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Varyag wrote: Quote: EDIT: Saracen dont listen to Varyag, he is just hateful and filled with prejudice. you should just pity him for his ignorance and narrow mindedness.

Well I don't pity you for yours, in truth western civilzation has a history of culture, progress, intelligence and invention whilst Islam has been making people morons since 600AD. To which muslims like would ask about acceptance and diversity being a cornerstone of western civilization, to which I answer that western civilization is in no way compatible with the idiotism and illogic preached by your pedophilic prophet and perverted religion.

That's a bit rich coming from someone who is an apologist for violence towards homosexuals. And you talk about appreciating the acceptance and diversity of the Western civilization???!!! :-|

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15676 Location: On Earth

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: That's a bit rich coming from someone who is an apologist for violence towards homosexuals. And you talk about appreciating the acceptance and diversity of the Western civilization???!!!

Karma does have its way, doesn't it? ;)

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Saracen wrote: Islam is 110% against homosexuality, as explained here.

I won't comment on women's issues and other matters because I am not an expert on those, but I can comment on the homosexuality as I have been reading quite a bit on the subject:

quoting the source: "A common mistake among humans is that if they don't see any negative consequences for their actions they consider it harmless. Human experience has taught us that a source of superior knowledge can be of tremendous benefit to humans ..."

I see a great danger in such assertion: it basically seems to hover on the notion that the society needs to punish homosexuals to make everyone aware of the "harm" of homosexuality. The logic behind this is EXTREMELY dangerous as it is basically founded on the notion that homosexuality is in a way manifestation of the Satan himself. And to equate a person whose only "crime" is getting involved sexually with a consenting person of same sex to Satan is mind bugling.

I have heard many Muslims refer to them as "Mofsed al fel arz". I am horrified when a Muslim makes such a charge against someone for merely being a homosexual?!!

Quoting the sourse: "The Finally, our bodies are given to us in trust from God. One should not use his or her body contrary to the user guide provided by its Maker. Consenting adults also need God's consent."

And here is a big fallacy. If God's consent is required, then it is a matter between the homosexual individual and God, not the society. There is no case for the capital punishment, imprisonment, torture, or exclusion of homosexuals from society. Homosexuals can be productive members of society and make great contributions.

Kubz · Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Posts: 43 Location: Cairo

i dont care about homsexuals. they can do their thing, god will punish them and its none of my business.

you are right if it doesnt bother me then it doesnt matter.

Tepic · Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 1422

I wonder why some religious folk focus so much on homosexuality - is it considered more 'sinful' than the (heterosexual) premarital sex, adultery etc. which is probably more common in most societies?

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2539

Do Muslims have to follow Sharia? because the EU have ruled that "its incompatable with Democracy" which is why they keep upholding Turkeys headscarf ban, and the banning of Turkish political parties.
Quote:
Noting that the Welfare Party had pledged to set up a regime based on sharia law, the Court found that sharia was incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy as set forth in the Convention. It considered that sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it". According to the Court, it was difficult to declare one’s respect for democracy and human rights while at the same
time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverged from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervened in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with
religious precepts.

www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/29AC6DBD-C3F8-411C-9B97-B42BE466EE7A/0/2004__Wildhaber_Cancado_Trindade_BIL__opening_legal_year.pdf#search=%22%20eu%20court%20of%20human%20rights%20sharia%22

Its fairly clear that in this respect Islam is incompatible with the EU which is a big chunk of the "west".

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15676 Location: On Earth

mendosan, Muslims don't have to follow Sharia, but they should follow the laws that apply to themselves as individuals. These laws are the creed of the religion. That is, I can live under any state as long as I don't enforce my rules on others and I get to do my individual rites: I fast, I refrain from pork, I refrain from adultery, I pray, I give charity, etc. All these actions have nothing to do with legislation, yet they are part of Sharia.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2539

Saracen wrote: mendosan, Muslims don't have to follow Sharia, but they should follow the laws that apply to themselves as individuals. These laws are the creed of the religion. That is, I can live under any state as long as I don't enforce my rules on others and I get to do my individual rites: I fast, I refrain from pork, I refrain from adultery, I pray, I give charity, etc. All these actions have nothing to do with legislation, yet they are part of Sharia.

I wasn't sure.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Again, the issue is hot once again. This time in Britain about hejab ...

Quote: Straw: I'd rather no one wore veils

The row over whether Muslim women should wear veils today intensified when Jack Straw said he would rather they were not worn at all.
Mr Straw, the leader of the Commons, insisted he did not want to be "prescriptive" of Muslim women's dress, but said the increasing trend towards covering facial features was "bound to make better, positive relations between the two communities more difficult".

The row ignited yesterday after the Blackburn MP said he had made clear to women wearing the niqab (full veil) at constituency surgeries that he would prefer them to remove the facial garment because face to face conversations were of "greater value".

....

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,1889173,00.html

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 928

saracen, why does your link say that girls of 3 years old were raped by moses? Interesting that you're linking to such a hate filled anti christian and anti semetic site.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 928

oh, blood libels too, how nice.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15676 Location: On Earth

programmusic wrote: saracen, why does your link say that girls of 3 years old were raped by moses? Interesting that you're linking to such a hate filled anti christian and anti semetic site.

I don't agree with that BS. I agree with the defense of Islam, not the attack of Christianity and Judaism.

However, even though I am not anti-Judaic, there is something called anti-Judaism, which is like anti-Islam: against the religion, not the race. Just a heads up...

Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Varyag wrote: Quote: EDIT: Saracen dont listen to Varyag, he is just hateful and filled with prejudice. you should just pity him for his ignorance and narrow mindedness.

Well I don't pity you for yours, in truth western civilzation has a history of culture, progress, intelligence and invention whilst Islam has been making people morons since 600AD. To which muslims like would ask about acceptance and diversity being a cornerstone of western civilization, to which I answer that western civilization is in no way compatible with the idiotism and illogic preached by your pedophilic prophet and perverted religion.

That's a bit rich coming from someone who is an apologist for violence towards homosexuals. And you talk about appreciating the acceptance and diversity of the Western civilization???!!! :-|

Apologist? :lol: I don't care about homosexuals at all or what happens to them, I'm not a homosexual, why should I? In no way is homosexuality a part of western civilization, nor is diversity or acceptance. Western civlization is a cultural identity, not your secular progressive homo-hugging bs.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

Varyag wrote: Western civlization is a cultural identity

:rofl:

That's weird because we're both from western cultures...... and there ain't a hell of alot in common between us.

Unless you meant to say "a broad variety of cultural identities"?

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 7404 Location: uk

Quote: Many Muslims in the West [at least from the oil rich nations] whom I have met are not poor. Many have great personal wealth. Yet, they are in the West, enjoying the freedoms and the tolerance that exist within the Western world [though this tolerance is not always perfect]. I personally find these people some of the most reviling human beings in the world ... freedom of the "immorals" mean very little to them as they often say it themselves.

maybe we dont mix with the same type of muslims then. the majority i know are only here because of fear or persecution or in order to work and study to be able to provide themselves with a better future as well as help their families back home. i dont deny that many, especially from the khaleej just like being in the west even though they are financially very well off. and honestly i agree with you, i find many arabs and muslims inable to appreciate what they have, pretend to believe in very consetrvative islamic issues yet cannot even follow the basics of islam, and dont really have any, i cant think of the word in english! any 'tarbiyah' , the way someone is bought up, in islam there are certain ways youre meant to behave, such as with compassion, truth, honesty, no back biting, no causing trouble between people, the way you treat neighbours, family friends etc, theres like an etiquette for behaviour that many seem to miss. and i see it even when going abroad, like one time i was at the beach and bunch of kids were beating a dog, it isnt considered a huge issue there, theres limited human rights let alone animal rights but hurting another living thing is wrong islamically, but then again i've seen kids do the same thing in the uk. i know muslims themselves are not generallly the best examples of islam, believe me i know, for years i went against islam because of the people i saw around me and how they behaved, to me if that was islam then i dont want it. but theyre not, they follow their own cultural wants and their own desires of how they want their life to be, mixed in with what can match from islam.

Quote: However, as you say a great many of the Muslims are here to take advantage of the economic situation of the West. Many live in ghettos and are raised with messages of hatred towards the "immoral" people. Again, freedom means very little to them ... so long as they have it, that's all that matters to them. And that is what truly irritates me about the Muslim attitude in general.

i think freedom means a lot more to people than you think. i was never taught hatred towards anyone, you take people as they come and judge them accordingly once you know them, not by a religion, or race or how theyre dressed or whatever......at the very least, thats what i try to do as a 'moderate muslim' ( i hate labels :? )

Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

slitedeviance wrote: Varyag wrote: Western civlization is a cultural identity

:rofl:

That's weird because we're both from western cultures...... and there ain't a hell of alot in common between us.

Unless you meant to say "a broad variety of cultural identities"?

No its a common culture bound by historical experience, such as the Treaty of Westphalia, a minority opinion within a culture does not reflect on the culture as a whole.

prometeus · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject:

Plato & Socrates wrote:
If you can shown me any type of evidence and pattern, of Islamic scholars/Imams, preaching this type of bile and hate pre 1945, just one tenth of how much I see today. Then I'll join you and agree that Islam is incompatible, and for f**k sake, please don't source the Jewish virtual library.

"Allah's damnation be on the Jews and the Christians who made the graves of their prophets objects of worship."

I'll let you figure who is being quoted...

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: "Allah's damnation be on the Jews and the Christians who made the graves of their prophets objects of worship
That was clearly a comment by George W Bush, developed by Dick Cheney (hey he is really the President) and was then quoted by a Islamic leader in a plan developed by the US to draw the US into a war with Afghanistan and Iraq for all their oil. That is precisly why today we have taken over Iraqi's oil and Afghainstan's oil pumping it and bringing it to the US to keep prices down..