Political Crossfire Forums

[Venom]

Quote: those things are just ignorant mens ways of controlling their wives, but believe me it may be the case in countries like Iraq, where there has never been any real stability or real education on religion per se, most people i meet with such ideas about women have no clue about what islam really is all about
We'll I'm glad to hear that isn't what Islam is about, however there are a lot of followers of Islam that believe otherwise.

Quote: i know for a fact that if i was in my home country and was married there and my husband decided it was ok to beat me up, even if the shi**y gvt in power had no laws to protect i know for sure i have a whole family that would make sure he doesnt touch me ever again
Thats good that your family would stop that but thats your own family and not many in largely muslim countries that allow this action.

Quote: that doesnt mean they are following islamic teachings, far from it, they're just following old customs where men thinkt he only way he can be a man is by controlling the women in his life
I'll admit I do not know if Islam teaches to put women down so I'll take your word for it. However in my own personal experience people whom have taken part in this action attributed part of their justification to Islam.

Quote: i've been to Egypt it always seems to me that it's the women ruling the roost not the other way round, and have the freedoms that you assume they dont there, although i realize you're talking directly about your experience in iraq.
That good on Egypt for allowing women to be a force, that is a good example of why I believe that Islam and the West are compatible. However there is also a lot of followers of Islam that do not treat women as equals or even as people. Now I do realize there are people like this in every religion, however I believe it would be hard to argue that any religion has number of people treating women as objects as does Islam.

[Varyag]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Varyag wrote: Saracen wrote: "You have your own religion and I have mine."
-Koran 109:6

So why aren't the muslims keeping out of my country?

They all love to move to West for the economic benefits that it offers. Yet, they do not want to accept Western values of toleration and freedom. A great many of them don't value freedom of the "immoral" people and attempt to restrict freedom of people. They talk about "Islamophobia", yet they are some of the most homophobic people around.

Having said that, they resemble the Christian Conervatives and the Orthodox Jews.

I don't mind their social conservatism, indeed I welcome it in aspects like gays and abortion, we could use the votes to hasten the social rebalance of the West, nor do I mind their admiration of the capitalist economy (they are descendants of a races that were probably the greatest merchants in history). Its the crime (rape/murder/car burning), welfare dependancy, religious over-zealotry/superiority complex, extremist tendency and lack of respect for the main features of western civilization (ie. invention, language, culture) that gives me a negative view of them - as well as all the terrorism. If they consider their religion and arab culture to be so superior they should stay in their countries.

[Kubz]

the woman example has nothing to do with Islam. but asian, arab strict attitudes.

no where in the Quran does it say that women shouldnt get an education or walk alone outside.

learn and read the Quran and you will find all your answers. dont be confused the words "Muslim" and Islam. a said "muslim" could be undevoted and not religious and not aquainted with his faith. this would mean that he could commit aweful things (like many humans) and just blame it on Islam or justify it by Islam.

fact of the matter is Islam doesnt promote terrorism, misogyny or any other form of ill will. if you want to know about Islam and what a proper Muslim should act like, study it, read the Quran.

Quote: If they consider their religion and arab culture to be so superior they should stay in their countries.

i agree totally but such intolerance or hate isnt taught in Islam. it is something to do with the people themselves.
if they cant deal with a certain culture they shouldnt be there.

Quote: Anyone will tell you that women are opressed under Islam
did you read the Quran? if so give me a quote which backs up your statement.

Arab communties because of their ignorance results in misogny or other forms of predjudice or other forms of inequality.
its worst in rural communties. in Cairo for example, women are not treated badly. however, in the villages south it is very different.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Kubz wrote: did you read the Quran? if so give me a quote which backs up your statement.

Arab communties because of their ignorance results in misogny or other forms of predjudice or other forms of inequality.
its worst in rural communties. in Cairo for example, women are not treated badly. however, in the villages south it is very different.

Women in Islam resemble farms to be cultivated or like a baby producing factory.

I remember talking to this Islamic "scholar" who said to me in Islam, women should not be in positions of authority. I asked why ... he said to me women have lots of mood swings and are not very rational, so they can't take the right decision.

He went on to tell me this is actually a good a bonus for women as she is not charged with making important decisions. :roll:

Although having said that, this does confuse me as if I am not mistaken, Muhammad married a female merchant [although he had 5000 other wives .... ]

[Tepic]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Women in Islam resemble farms to be cultivated or like a baby producing factory.

I remember talking to this Islamic "scholar" who said to me in Islam, women should not be in positions of authority. I asked why ... he said to me women have lots of mood swings and are not very rational, so they can't take the right decision.

He went on to tell me this is actually a good a bonus for women as she is not charged with making important decisions. :roll:

Although having said that, this does confuse me as if I am not mistaken, Muhammad married a female merchant [although he had 5000 other wives .... ]
There were similar attitudes in the West around a century ago, before Women's Rights groups and the striving for enlightenment values moved society forward. Perhaps Muslim women could take a leaf from the Suffragettes' book.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Varyag wrote: I welcome it in aspects like gays

So you approve of hanging gay people, pushing them over the edge of a cliff, or crushing them under a toppled wall?

Do you also condone dragging 14 year old gay kids across the street and then shooting those "filthy bastards"?

And do you condone rounding up men and dragging them to the police station to clarify whether they are f**s or not?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0505-06.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3522457.stm

Holier than though people disgust me.

[Varyag]

I don't "support" it, but I sure wouldn't oppose it if it happned. :wink:

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: If they consider their religion and arab culture to be so superior they should stay in their countries.

Likewise to you. Those who travel to the West conform to Western values and stick to their own as well. No conflict. No hassle. Everyone's equal. Everyone has their own values. Stop thinking there are people superior to others and we'll all be fine.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: If they consider their religion and arab culture to be so superior they should stay in their countries.

Likewise to you. Those who travel to the West conform to Western values and stick to their own as well. No conflict. No hassle. Everyone's equal. Everyone has their own values. Stop thinking there are people superior to others and we'll all be fine.

I'll think whatever I want, as for travel, sure, there is nothing worthwhile in the middle east aside from oil, the last cultured civilization there resided in 600AD :lol:

[mendosan]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Varyag wrote: I welcome it in aspects like gays

So you approve of hanging gay people, pushing them over the edge of a cliff, or crushing them under a toppled wall?

Do you also condone dragging 14 year old gay kids across the street and then shooting those "filthy bastards"?

And do you condone rounding up men and dragging them to the police station to clarify whether they are f**s or not?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0505-06.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3522457.stm

Holier than though people disgust me.

Anyone who supports treating humans like that doesn't belong in "the West".

[ToonArmyIsComing]

emerald wrote: if the economic situation and benefits that you enjoy and take for granted in the west, no longer existed....instead it was those things which the muslim wolrd enjoyed, and the west had all those corrupt, pathetic, excuses for human beings that exist now in the muslim world, would you tell me that if the oppertunity arose for you to leave and have some of those economic benefits and make something out of yourself by travelling abroad and living there, that you wouldnt take it? and if you did, would you really change your whole perspective on life and your beliefs in order to suit the people you've come to live with?

Many Muslims in the West [at least from the oil rich nations] whom I have met are not poor. Many have great personal wealth. Yet, they are in the West, enjoying the freedoms and the tolerance that exist within the Western world [though this tolerance is not always perfect]. I personally find these people some of the most reviling human beings in the world ... freedom of the "immorals" mean very little to them as they often say it themselves.

However, as you say a great many of the Muslims are here to take advantage of the economic situation of the West. Many live in ghettos and are raised with messages of hatred towards the "immoral" people. Again, freedom means very little to them ... so long as they have it, that's all that matters to them. And that is what truly irritates me about the Muslim attitude in general.

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: I'll think whatever I want, as for travel, sure, there is nothing worthwhile in the middle east aside from oil, the last cultured civilization there resided in 600AD

Actually, think again. Before the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the Arabs were more uncivilized than they are today. Civilization is very subjective to many interpretive meanings, but by no means was the Arab society at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) onwards "uncivilized".

mendosan wrote: Anyone who supports treating humans like that doesn't belong in "the West".

Then, surely, these guys don't belong in the West either, eh?

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Again, freedom means very little to them ... so long as they have it, that's all that matters to them. And that is what truly irritates me about the Muslim attitude in general.

How do you know that? Freedom means a lot to me, but many people in the Muslim world are too disinterested in politics, etc. to be caring about their personal freedoms more than they care about their daily lives.

Btw, nice to see you again, ToonArmy. :)

[mendosan]

Quote: Then, surely, these guys don't belong in the West either, eh?

Nope they don't belong in "the west" IMO.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: I'll think whatever I want, as for travel, sure, there is nothing worthwhile in the middle east aside from oil, the last cultured civilization there resided in 600AD

Actually, think again. Before the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the Arabs were more uncivilized than they are today. Civilization is very subjective to many interpretive meanings, but by no means was the Arab society at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) onwards "uncivilized".

Maybe arab soviety, certainly not peoples subjugated under islam such as the Lebanese, former Babylonians or Persians. And I wouldn't call what Islam did to the Bedowins "civilizational", just gave them a different, more violent form of barbarism.

[Saracen]

mendosan wrote: Nope they don't belong in "the west" IMO.

They don't belong in the East either.

Varyag wrote: Maybe arab soviety, certainly not peoples subjugated under islam such as the Lebanese, former Babylonians or Persians. And I wouldn't call what Islam did to the Bedowins "civilizational", just gave them a different, more violent form of barbarism.

You have no idea, Varyag. No idea, whatsoever. Arab civilization came about as a result of Islamic civilization. It's just that your extreme hate for Islam makes you think that Muslims are just barbarians.

And what are you talking about? The Lebanese were not subjugated under Islam. The former Babylonians didn't even live under Islamic rule. The Persians... the Persians were persecuting Muslims at the time.

All this talk about barbarism, etc. is nothing but racist hatred towards Arabs and Muslims.

[Kubz]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote:
Women in Islam resemble farms to be cultivated or like a baby producing factory.

baseless and without proof. show me a quote from the Quran that backs your statement.

ToonArmyIsComing wrote:
I remember talking to this Islamic "scholar" who said to me in Islam, women should not be in positions of authority. I asked why ... he said to me women have lots of mood swings and are not very rational, so they can't take the right decision.

most Islamic 'scholars' are ignorant. only a very few select 'relgious men' you should listen to regarding relgious clarifications. one of them is the Mufti at El Azhar. if you want to know Islam read the Quran and cut the crap.

EDIT: Saracen dont listen to Varyag, he is just hateful and filled with prejudice. you should just pity him for his ignorance and narrow mindedness.

[mendosan]

Saracen wrote: mendosan wrote: Nope they don't belong in "the west" IMO.

They don't belong in the East either.

Im not sure what your point is? was Homosexuality allowed in the Islamic golden age?

Quote: "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."
bullet "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to."
bullet "Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them."
www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla1.htm

In your opinion are they authentic Hadiths?

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Saracen wrote: mendosan wrote: Anyone who supports treating humans like that doesn't belong in "the West".

Then, surely, these guys don't belong in the West either, eh?

Such people are the source of intolerance and social exclusion.

Saracen wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Again, freedom means very little to them ... so long as they have it, that's all that matters to them. And that is what truly irritates me about the Muslim attitude in general.

How do you know that? Freedom means a lot to me, but many people in the Muslim world are too disinterested in politics, etc. to be caring about their personal freedoms more than they care about their daily lives.

I do not mean to generalize, but my interactions with "moderate" Muslims have been extremely negative [I will give it a two thumbs down] because in their minds, they seem unable to grasp the fact that what they call "Islamophobia" for example happens in a far more extreme form to the homosexuals in the form of homophobia. I consider this to be taking advantage of liberalism: they want to be included in the society, but they don't have any problem with perscribing social exclusion for others. [I am just using homosexuality as an example here]

Saracen, I have always tried to be fairly open-minded and respectful towards Muslims as I do believe that they face discrimination in the Western society, but I am finding it extremely difficult to continue doing so because I don't see ANY point to tolerating the so-called moderates of Islam who are vehemently intolerant. And please note: I do not mean tolerance as just letting someone else live without the government punishing him/her. I mean tolerance as social inclusion and acceptance.

And I am not saying all this as someone who knows nothing about Islam, Arab culture, etc. I am saying this as someone who does interact with various groups.

Saracen wrote: Btw, nice to see you again, ToonArmy. :)

Nice to see you Saracen. :)

[Saracen]

Kubz wrote: EDIT: Saracen dont listen to Varyag, he is just hateful and filled with prejudice. you should just pity him for his ignorance and narrow mindedness.

Don't worry. I'm not too occupied with his hateful trash either.

mendosan wrote: Im not sure what your point is? was Homosexuality allowed in the Islamic golden age?

As far as I'm concerned, yes. Nobody really cared: poets came out who apostasized in public and made fun of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). While their language was despicable, they were still allowed to do it.

Quote: In your opinion are they authentic Hadiths?

I really doubt them, but in Islam, as in Christianity and Judaism, lesbian intercourse and sodomy are actually forbidden. However, as a liberal, I don't mind others doing it, so as long as they do it in private and that I am not involved. With regards to Islam however, God will judge them in the end.

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Such people are the source of intolerance and social exclusion.

I agree.

Quote: I do not mean to generalize, but my interactions with "moderate" Muslims have been extremely negative [I will give it a two thumbs down] because in their minds, they seem unable to grasp the fact that what they call "Islamophobia" for example happens in a far more extreme form to the homosexuals in the form of homophobia. I consider this to be taking advantage of liberalism: they want to be included in the society, but they don't have any problem with perscribing social exclusion for others. [I am just using homosexuality as an example here]

I understand your point. I was attending this seminar on Islamophobia the other day, and I was surprised that one of the speakers came out to the extent that he wanted all "racist references" to Muslims and Arabs in Classic English literature (William Shakespeare's occurrent use of the word "Saracen" to defile Muslims, but I wear this name in pride) eliminated! I disagreed, of course, because that was just literature. I fully understand what you mean, ToonArmy. I may be a liberal, but I'm no hypocrite. And yes, if such a person came out to say such a thing, I would be the first to correct him.

Quote: Saracen, I have always tried to be fairly open-minded and respectful towards Muslims as I do believe that they face discrimination in the Western society, but I am finding it extremely difficult to continue doing so because I don't see ANY point to tolerating the so-called moderates of Islam who are vehemently intolerant. And please note: I do not mean tolerance as just letting someone else live without the government punishing him/her. I mean tolerance as social inclusion and acceptance.

I understand fully. You didn't have to bolden your words. :)

Quote: And I am not saying all this as someone who knows nothing about Islam, Arab culture, etc. I am saying this as someone who does interact with various groups.

Understood, friend.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: Maybe arab soviety, certainly not peoples subjugated under islam such as the Lebanese, former Babylonians or Persians. And I wouldn't call what Islam did to the Bedowins "civilizational", just gave them a different, more violent form of barbarism.

You have no idea, Varyag. No idea, whatsoever. Arab civilization came about as a result of Islamic civilization. It's just that your extreme hate for Islam makes you think that Muslims are just barbarians.

That and the everyday things muslims, muslim states and muslim organizations do. But yes, muslims are barbarians and have no place anywhere where knowledge or history resides.

Quote: And what are you talking about? The Lebanese were not subjugated under Islam. The former Babylonians didn't even live under Islamic rule. The Persians... the Persians were persecuting Muslims at the time.

I'm talking about great historical civilizations becoming backward as soon as Islam arrived and festered their once advanced civilizations.

Quote: All this talk about barbarism, etc. is nothing but racist hatred towards Arabs and Muslims.

You cant be "racist" towards a religion, I don't dislike arabs, just muslims arabs and muslims in general.