Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15567 Location: On Earth

mendosan wrote: You see this is my problem you have to veiw your own values as superior and somthing thats worth defending (which is what muslims do) it would be nice if some PC people would take a leaf out of there book.

If Islam doesn't become western then it has no place here, hartsh but true.

Sorry, but we're not going to accept Western values. Western values are not necessarily better or worse than Islamic values, and both have their ups and downs from a third-person perspective. Islam will stay in its core an Eastern faith, just like Eastern Christianity and Eastern Judaism, and yes, it can live in the West. Islam as it is practiced in the West is peaceful. It's also peaceful in the Middle East. Also, don't assume that Muslims are violent because they're Muslim. Islam has nothing to do with their violence. It's their outrage against an outright attack against their faith or their people. You look at Iraq and Palestine and other places of the world, and now you're condemning them for being outraged?

While I believe Islam to be "the right choice" for me, I respect the convictions that other people have in their faiths. Sorry, buddy, but the "PC" way is the only humane alternative. If you seek to create divisions between people, then I must ask you to re-evaluate your stance.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Yrkoon wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Yrkoon wrote: Is Pakistan a middle east country?

Middle East defines a cultural area, so it does not have precise borders.

What a mass of BULL. The Middle east is a very precise geographic area, with clearly defined borders. Are you going to argue with the US government, specifically, the CIA world factbook?

Pakistan is not in the middle east. period.

CIA factbook!! What you mean like the one that said something about 45 minutes and WMD?!!!! :rotf:

Oh I used to live in the MIDDLE EAST so you can stick all your 'fact books' where the sun don't shine!!

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2501

Saracen wrote: mendosan wrote: You see this is my problem you have to veiw your own values as superior and somthing thats worth defending (which is what muslims do) it would be nice if some PC people would take a leaf out of there book.

If Islam doesn't become western then it has no place here, hartsh but true.

Sorry, but we're not going to accept Western values. Western values are not necessarily better or worse than Islamic values, and both have their ups and downs from a third-person perspective. Islam will stay in its core an Eastern faith, just like Eastern Christianity and Eastern Judaism, and yes, it can live in the West. Islam as it is practiced in the West is peaceful. It's also peaceful in the Middle East. Also, don't assume that Muslims are violent because they're Muslim. Islam has nothing to do with their violence. It's their outrage against an outright attack against their faith or their people. You look at Iraq and Palestine and other places of the world, and now you're condemning them for being outraged?

While I believe Islam to be "the right choice" for me, I respect the convictions that other people have in their faiths. Sorry, buddy, but the "PC" way is the only humane alternative. If you seek to create divisions between people, then I must ask you to re-evaluate your stance.

If Islam dosen't change then its people that live in the west will continue to feel alienated from western society and we will continue to have 7/7 attacks because of it, the question isn't can we tolerate each other but how much can we tolrate? Why do muslims feel aliented? because of there Islamic faith and there loyalty to other Muslims?. Western society isn't gonna change so Muslims can fit in, and we have no duty to do so.

Muslims choose to live in our society so they have to accept our laws and our values, or they can choose to live somewhere else, we will tolerate Islam but were not going to accept it, or pretend that it deserves respect without earning it.

Yrkoon

MoscowMatt wrote: Yrkoon wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Yrkoon wrote: Is Pakistan a middle east country?

Middle East defines a cultural area, so it does not have precise borders.

What a mass of BULL. The Middle east is a very precise geographic area, with clearly defined borders. Are you going to argue with the US government, specifically, the CIA world factbook?

Pakistan is not in the middle east. period.

CIA factbook!! What you mean like the one that said something about 45 minutes and WMD?!!!! :rotf:
What in the WORLD are you talking about? :?

The CIA world factbook is a geographic reference. An official one.

MoscowMatt wrote: Oh I used to live in the MIDDLE EAST so you can stick all your 'fact books' where the sun don't shine!!

I currently live in the middle east. The USA to be exact. Indeed, since there's no hard set borders (your claim) then any country can be in the middle east, therefore....

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 7331 Location: uk

Quote: If Islam dosen't change then its people that live in the west will continue to feel alienated from western society and we will continue to have 7/7 attacks because of it, the question isn't can we tolerate each other but how much can we tolrate? Why do muslims feel aliented? because of there Islamic faith and there loyalty to other Muslims?. Western society isn't gonna change so Muslims can fit in, and we have no duty to do so.

you ever wonder why muslims in the west might feel alienated??
i could give you examples of many things that have happened to me and others, which make me feel alienated, and it isnt even just events since 11th sept. i'm not going to change my beliefs to suit british beliefs i dont expect british belief to change to suit me. besides the fact that british society is made up of a huge number of people, more than 60 million, do they all believe the same thing? what does it mean to be british? what are we meant to believe? this country views itself as a christian country, yet a alrge majority dont really believe god exists, should they be alienated too? i accept the laws of this country, and follow them, thats what makes me a good citizen, i attend my daily buisness as a member of this society, i have been educated here, i respect evveryone elses right to their views on life and the way they wish to live. i dont expect much more than that. understand i beleive in something different, except that like many millions of others i have a different approach to life and move on.

Quote: Muslims choose to live in our society so they have to accept our laws and our values, or they can choose to live somewhere else, we will tolerate Islam but were not going to accept it, or pretend that it deserves respect without earning it.

so the actions of a few who happen to follow my religion will ultimately effect your view of me?? seriously, if more people thought like that, then no wonder we feel alienated if we need to 'earn' your respect for living in this country, a country i regard as being my home, not simple because i happen to be born here, but because my mother is british, my family are here and i've lived here for the best part of my life, but that is worth nothing obviously. no one is asking you to respect the actions of the bad just respect that people have different views to you, i didnt imagine that would actually be that difficult for someone bought up in a country where freedom of thought, of speech and the like are so valued....

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Pre-war on terror, the west did'nt really have a problem with Islam

Um Pre-war on terror the west was attacked many times by Islamic extremists... the war on terror was just the West (well atleast the US and the UK) admitting this...

As for Islam and the west I do not believe that hardcore Islam would really survive in the West. The West is all about this "freedom and equality" stuff. When I was in Iraq I'd see parents openly beat their children, talk down to women (whom didn't have near the rights of men), and even force some to wear clothing covering their whole body. Oh and one thing that I am not sure about is that in Iraq the men their felt "women were for reproduction, men are for pleasure" as far as sex goes. Now being gay is one thing but having sex with little boys is completely different. Something of which was widely accepted over there... Again Im not sure if this is a Muslim thing or Middle East thing... but thats how it goes.
The West is supposed to represent the ability for people to do as they choose. If a woman wants to live like that, fine by me. However they are not given the choice from what I experienced in Iraq. Now when I was in college I went to a very mutli ethnic school. One that had a LARGE population of muslims. Some of whom would hide their faces, others that were more moderate. I had no problem with either group, however the problem I would have is if someone was allowed to beat their wife/daughter or force a marriage.

The problem isn't being Muslim, its some of the rules that many live under. I know Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Christians, people that don't even believe in God.... but regardless of what they believe I would not stand for such harsh treatment of women for no other reason than their sex.
Any religion that does not treat both sexs with the same respect I believe is wrong.

Yrkoon · Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:12 am Post subject:

mendosan wrote:

If Islam doesn't become western then it has no place here, hartsh but true.
Harsh and FALSE

The time will come when Conservative Islam sits side by side with Christianity here in the states. When that happens, you'll have two giant religious groups calling themselves the "Religious Right" instead of just one. Both groups will try and dictate what we can watch on TV, what our teachers can teach their students, etc. The Christian anti-abortion crowd will now have a staunch ally to help it control a woman's reproductive freedoms. Gay Marriage opponents will now have twice as many in their numbers. And the fight to end secularism in America will be fought on two religious fronts, instead of just one.

All of this is great news to Religious Christians and Muslims. Bad news for everyone else.

There will be one minor conflict between the two, though: Religious Christians will continue to oppose important scientific advancements, like stem cell research, while Muslims will embrace it. But that's not anything surprizing or new. No one can ever accuse Christianity of being Pro-science.

Yrkoon · Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:17 am Post subject:

Venom wrote: Quote: Pre-war on terror, the west did'nt really have a problem with Islam

Um Pre-war on terror the west was attacked many times by Islamic extremists... the war on terror was just the West (well atleast the US and the UK) admitting this...
And they were seen as isolated incidents...not at all worthy of a change of foreign policy and therefore, no one ever gave the issue much thought. At least not here in the US, where our minds were more focussed on NON-Islamic terrorism, like Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazinski, the Montana Freemen, WACO, etc. The point stands.

Venom wrote: The West is all about this "freedom and equality" stuff. When I was in Iraq I'd see parents openly beat their children, talk down to women (whom didn't have near the rights of men), and even force some to wear clothing covering their whole body. Oh and one thing that I am not sure about is that in Iraq the men their felt "women were for reproduction, men are for pleasure" as far as sex goes. Now being gay is one thing but having sex with little boys is completely different.
With the possible exception of covering from head to toe, you are describing a typical trailor park in Alabama. period.

The notion that Islam is ANY different than Christianity when it comes to a topic such as treatment of women is pure demonstrative nonsense.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: And they were seen as isolated incidents...not at all worthy of a change of foreign policy and therefore, no one ever gave the issue much thought. At least not here in the US, where our minds were more focussed on NON-Islamic terrorism, like Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazinski, the Montana Freemen, WACO, etc. The point stands.
They seen as isolated incidents by many at the time. They were wrong. There were attacks against the United States that have indeed been shown not to be isolated incidents...

Quote: With the possible exception of covering from head to toe, you are describing a typical trailor park in Alabama. period.
Most trailor parks in Alabama wouldn't be too big on homosexual sex with little boys or homosexuals at all.... most of these types of people are pretty narrow minded. As for saying that they also line up be just like followers of Islam expect for the covering of head to toe you'd be wrong. Women there are allowed to work, drive a car, talk to other men, and numerous other little tid bits that many Muslim women are not afforded.

Quote: The notion that Islam is ANY different than Christianity when it comes to a topic such as treatment of women is pure demonstrative nonsense.
Really? Then why has the United States, which many people consider a largely Christian nation, had women's rights movements? To pretend that women over here are treated on par with Muslim women in Iraq is demonstrative nonsense.

Yrkoon · Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:24 am Post subject:

Venom wrote:
Most trailor parks in Alabama wouldn't be too big on homosexual sex with little boys or homosexuals at all.... most of these types of people are pretty narrow minded. As for saying that they also line up be just like followers of Islam expect for the covering of head to toe you'd be wrong. Women there are allowed to work, drive a car, talk to other men, and numerous other little tid bits that many Muslim women are not afforded.
Excuse me, but this was your experience when you went to Iraq?

You can go ahead and blame the US for that. Saddam used to keep such things from occuring. When we deposed him, we allowed the mullah's and the Ayatollah's to become more powerful and infuential. Thus, you're getting what you're seeing today.

Venom wrote:
Quote: The notion that Islam is ANY different than Christianity when it comes to a topic such as treatment of women is pure demonstrative nonsense.
Really? Then why has the United States, which many people consider a largely Christian nation, had women's rights movements? To pretend that women over here are treated on par with Muslim women in Iraq is demonstrative nonsense.

Um no. There is one reason and one reason ONLY, that women have freedom and equal rights in the USA: The US government has supressed Christian influence here. Make no mistake about this, bud. We are a free society here INSPITE of Christianity, not because of it. Or are you blind to the constant battles against the religious right that groups like the ACLU and the Federal government have to fight every friggin day?

logic-rules · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 1789 Location: MINNEAPOLIS

religion in general is not compatible with the "west"

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2501

Quote: you ever wonder why muslims in the west might feel alienated??
i could give you examples of many things that have happened to me and others, which make me feel alienated, and it isnt even just events since 11th sept. i'm not going to change my beliefs to suit british beliefs i dont expect british belief to change to suit me. besides the fact that british society is made up of a huge number of people, more than 60 million, do they all believe the same thing? what does it mean to be british? what are we meant to believe? this country views itself as a christian country, yet a alrge majority dont really believe god exists, should they be alienated too? i accept the laws of this country, and follow them, thats what makes me a good citizen, i attend my daily buisness as a member of this society, i have been educated here, i respect evveryone elses right to their views on life and the way they wish to live. i dont expect much more than that. understand i beleive in something different, except that like many millions of others i have a different approach to life and move on.

Then your not actualy opposing what I say, im not saying people can't live there lives diffrently can't worship whom ever they want, thats there choice, all we ever hear are Muslims moaning about British foregin policy as if the tiny percent of the population that is Islamic should dictate foregin policy for the whole 60 million poeple on this country.
Quote:
so the actions of a few who happen to follow my religion will ultimately effect your view of me?? seriously, if more people thought like that, then no wonder we feel alienated if we need to 'earn' your respect for living in this country, a country i regard as being my home, not simple because i happen to be born here, but because my mother is british, my family are here and i've lived here for the best part of my life, but that is worth nothing obviously. no one is asking you to respect the actions of the bad just respect that people have different views to you, i didnt imagine that would actually be that difficult for someone bought up in a country where freedom of thought, of speech and the like are so valued....

Im free to think what I want as you have pointed out, and it was the "moderate" Muslim organisations which were lobbying to curtail those freedoms with the "Racial and religious hatred" bill and im not going to blindly respect any faith or any ideology thats my veiw.

thatisnotme · Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 452

[quote="Yrkoon"] Venom wrote:

The notion that Islam is ANY different than Christianity when it comes to a topic such as treatment of women is pure demonstrative nonsense.

True if you are comparing individuals. But here we are talking about government policies. The West has accepted that men and women are equal before the law, in the work place, etc. True, there are pockets of resistance, nevertheless, women can fare better in a system in which the laws are on their side.

In the Muslim world, there is a total different picture. The laws are fashioned such that a woman can hardly get any justice. For example, in some Muslim countries, a woman needs four males as witnesses that she was raped, AND if she fails to do so, she can be prosecuted for aldultery. The cards are so stacked against women that men in those countries can rape women with total impunity.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Yrkoon wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Yrkoon wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Yrkoon wrote: Is Pakistan a middle east country?

Middle East defines a cultural area, so it does not have precise borders.

What a mass of BULL. The Middle east is a very precise geographic area, with clearly defined borders. Are you going to argue with the US government, specifically, the CIA world factbook?

Pakistan is not in the middle east. period.

CIA factbook!! What you mean like the one that said something about 45 minutes and WMD?!!!! :rotf:
What in the WORLD are you talking about? :?

The CIA world factbook is a geographic reference. An official one.

MoscowMatt wrote: Oh I used to live in the MIDDLE EAST so you can stick all your 'fact books' where the sun don't shine!!

I currently live in the middle east. The USA to be exact. Indeed, since there's no hard set borders (your claim) then any country can be in the middle east, therefore....

'official' :rotf:

Yeah like I said just like Iraq officially had WMD!

The question asked was Islam compatible with the West. The people quoted were Pakistani's. Their geographical origin is irrelevant because the question is talking about Islam which orginated from the Middle East.

The title of this forum is Middle East politics not Middle East geography!!

Most Middle East policy is highly influenced by the teachings of Islam. Heance why I felt it reasonable to post here.

If you look at many of the threads on this site then you will find there are several forums where they could be posted.

But feel free to carry on as it's funny watching people p***ing into the wind!!

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Excuse me, but this was your experience when you went to Iraq?

You can go ahead and blame the US for that. Saddam used to keep such things from occuring. When we deposed him, we allowed the mullah's and the Ayatollah's to become more powerful and infuential. Thus, you're getting what you're seeing today.
We can blame ourselves for Iraqi's molesting boys? That happened before the invasion.... and continues after.
As for Saddam keeping such things from occuring, that's again incorrect. Saddam did not have control over much of the country prior to the invasion. Fullejha was a no go for him, other places were not locked down like you seem to believe.
Saddam allowed his sons to go pick women and rape then murder them. He murdered all sorts of people and here your saying he kept the country under control?
Child molesting and a religion that force women to be more than mules and punching bags is the United State's fault? No that came from the people of Iraq...

Quote: Um no. There is one reason and one reason ONLY, that women have freedom and equal rights in the USA: The US government has supressed Christian influence here. Make no mistake about this, bud. We are a free society here INSPITE of Christianity, not because of it. Or are you blind to the constant battles against the religious right that groups like the ACLU and the Federal government have to fight every friggin day?
No I am not blind to the fight to keep church and state seperate. However, is most of the United States not a denomination of Christianity? Why yes they are.
The difference is that in a largely ISLAMIC society you do not seem to have many free societies compared to Christians.
Would it be a free society if beating your wife, women not being allowed to drive, show their face, etc was the norm? Make no mistake bud, it would not be.

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 7331 Location: uk

Quote: No I am not blind to the fight to keep church and state seperate. However, is most of the United States not a denomination of Christianity? Why yes they are.
The difference is that in a largely ISLAMIC society you do not seem to have many free societies compared to Christians.
Would it be a free society if beating your wife, women not being allowed to drive, show their face, etc was the norm? Make no mistake bud, it would not be.

those things are just ignorant mens ways of controlling their wives, but believe me it may be the case in countries like Iraq, where there has never been any real stability or real education on religion per se, most people i meet with such ideas about women have no clue about what islam really is all about, and i know for a fact that if i was in my home country and was married there and my husband decided it was ok to beat me up, even if the shi**y gvt in power had no laws to protect i know for sure i have a whole family that would make sure he doesnt touch me ever again. there may not be the laws there in those countries yet, but that doesnt mean they are following islamic teachings, far from it, they're just following old customs where men thinkt he only way he can be a man is by controlling the women in his life. all of the above things you mentioned are in no way things which are accepted by islamic teachings. and that needs to change in the muslims world, theres no debating that, even though at least the vast number of times i've been to Egypt it always seems to me that it's the women ruling the roost not the other way round, and have the freedoms that you assume they dont there, although i realize you're talking directly about your experience in iraq.

Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

Saracen wrote: "You have your own religion and I have mine."
-Koran 109:6

So why aren't the muslims keeping out of my country?

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Varyag wrote: Saracen wrote: "You have your own religion and I have mine."
-Koran 109:6

So why aren't the muslims keeping out of my country?

They all love to move to West for the economic benefits that it offers. Yet, they do not want to accept Western values of toleration and freedom. A great many of them don't value freedom of the "immoral" people and attempt to restrict freedom of people. They talk about "Islamophobia", yet they are some of the most homophobic people around.

Having said that, they resemble the Christian Conervatives and the Orthodox Jews.

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 7331 Location: uk

Quote: They all love to move to West for the economic benefits that it offers. Yet, they do not want to accept Western values of toleration and freedom. A great many of them don't value freedom of the "immoral" people and attempt to restrict freedom of people. They talk about "Islamophobia", yet they are some of the most homophobic people around.

if the economic situation and benefits that you enjoy and take for granted in the west, no longer existed....instead it was those things which the muslim wolrd enjoyed, and the west had all those corrupt, pathetic, excuses for human beings that exist now in the muslim world, would you tell me that if the oppertunity arose for you to leave and have some of those economic benefits and make something out of yourself by travelling abroad and living there, that you wouldnt take it? and if you did, would you really change your whole perspective on life and your beliefs in order to suit the people you've come to live with?
and i've known a lot of british people who go to UAE for work, and continue living ther life as they do here with no real problems, they follow the laws of that country but they certainly dont change themselve to suit the muslim population there.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15567 Location: On Earth

mendosan wrote: If Islam dosen't change then its people that live in the west will continue to feel alienated from western society and we will continue to have 7/7 attacks because of it, the question isn't can we tolerate each other but how much can we tolrate? Why do muslims feel aliented? because of there Islamic faith and there loyalty to other Muslims?. Western society isn't gonna change so Muslims can fit in, and we have no duty to do so.

No. They can attain their own identity and co-exist with the West. However, the 7/7 attacks occurred because of the war on Iraq. As far as I know, many Muslims living in the West co-exist with their peers, but many feel alienated because they find Western society new. It's a general case, called "culture shock". Muslims don't want to change Western society to fit their norms, and neither would I.

Quote: Muslims choose to live in our society so they have to accept our laws and our values, or they can choose to live somewhere else, we will tolerate Islam but were not going to accept it, or pretend that it deserves respect without earning it.

I agree that no religion deserves "special treatment". However, they can accept your laws, but your values... they can personally not accept them, but socially, they shouldn't mind. For example, I don't like having a girlfriend, but I wouldn't mind if others had girlfriends, because it's not my business. And having a girlfriend, according to many Islamic scholars, is unIslamic.