Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

programmusic wrote: Hmm, that's why there were attacks before the occupation. Oh yeah, by occupation you mean the state of Israel itself.

Those attacks were caused because of the Zionist apartheid and treatment of the Palestinian workers who worked on those farms, along with the symptoms of colonialist oppression from a double-edged sword.

Varyag wrote: European society is not a utopia, nor is its current form anything to be proud of, aside from the obvious scientific, cultural and technological leverage it has over the lesser cultures, which have been products of Europe ever since the Greeks (and earlier)

Using your (il)logic, the culture of the Europeans at the time of Islam's rise AND at the time of the Kingdom of Israel was in fact a "lesser" culture, especially in the case of the former.

Quote: Europe isnt for muslims and jews, its for Europeans, I have no sympathy for the current plight of the muslims and jews, nor for any period of their histories. As examples like Rome showed, people who tolerate for too long end up dead and displaced.

Well, thanks for approving your not only anti-Muslim, but also anti-Semitic stance regarding inhabitance of Europe.

Quote: I would accord them due credit, unfortunately muslims have done very little of note in these kinds of terms, you know as well as me that when a cure for AIDS is found, its almost a guarantee that is was done somewhere in the West.

And yet many other cures were found in the East.

You're not fooling anyone, Varyag.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: Incase you haven't noticed, those two things are interchangeable in the middle east.

Not really. Most of the clergy that I know of are those who give my speech in the local mosque, and I have yet to hear them denounce "infidels".

No I'm talking about the acute mix of politics and islamic religion in general, apitomized by Iran, and most of the politics in the region.

Quote: Quote: True, but its not solely my opinion.

You're right. It's the opinion of every other person who just wants to see the Holocaust repeated on the Muslims.

I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there, incase you havent noticed most of you want to do a similar thing to the Jews.

Quote: Quote: Seriously the Islamic and Ottoman Empires were the two most oppressive, anti-civilized, anti-progress empires on Earth at the time they existed, that actually has a modern proof as well, look around your house at any item and ask yourself who invented it, chances are it was a Westerner.

- insert sympathetic pro-muslim propaganda here -

two things

1. Find a legitimate source :lol:
2. Take my challenge, look around at things in your house, or outside it, and ask whose inventive effort created it, your plumbing, the planes flying around in the sky, the electricity in your power points, the very screen you're staring at now :lol:

Quote: Quote: Well thats not certain, based on simple derivative fact, and the fact that the one linking factor of these people is religion, it would be very difficult for you to prove such a statement.

Done.

That doesent provide any answer as to why 70% of France's prison population is muslim :lol:

Quote: Quote: Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

Twisted interpretation. Islam forbids rape, forbids plunder and forbids loot.

And endorses it at the same time, in different passages.

Quote: Quote: Nations where everyone has a place do not last long, and I'm pretty sure countries in the ME are generally no nice places for people other than arab/muslim to live.

On the contrary: there are many foreigners who live peacefully here in the ME. Also, you should be more appreciative of multiculturalism: it destroys all those feelings of hate and discomfort and friction between people. Ain't it grand?

A few tenths of a percent are no problem, its when the percentage numbers become whole integers that it gets problematic, I don't mind most cultures actually, most immigrants in Europe don't cause trouble, just the muslims.

Quote: Quote: I have no need to read the Koran, only to read the actions of its followers, a lifetime of action is worth more than some empty rhetoric from the Koran , believe me.

Why the hell should I believe you?

Becuase action and rhetoric are two different, often contradictory things.

Quote: So, in short, you're judging Muslims on their actions, not their beliefs, even though Islam is totally against what these fanatical Muslims do, and that these fanatics are indeed an outspoken minority. Most cases, these fanatics don't even practice Islam to the extent that they can be labelled as "religious" extremists.

ALWAYS judge people on actions, remember the old saying, actions speak alot louder than words. Also I'm not sure you genuinely believe this, I surely do not believe there is a clear destintion between whom you call "fanatics" and what you would reguard yourself as, "moderate" I suspect. Its the degree to which one applies the text of the Koran, but far more broadly, its the deep undercurrent of muslim civilization (which I call uncivilized, you see differently), consistant bias and the use of the religion of Islam as a political leverage (and Islam suits this perfectly becuase within the Koran, Hadith and so forth one can find a passage or tale to justify almost any action), of which the Koran is a small part.

The generality of muslims (youth especially) in Europe is alot more worrying than the occasional Al Queda member bombing a train. All people in the world have a place, many non-Europeans are perfectly civilized and capable of leading regular lives here in Europe, the Indians, various East Asians and Russians all come to mind, muslims however, on the whole are not.

[quote] Quote: I tell you something: if anything, it's FASCISM that is a threat to society.

Fascism has never threatened Europe, nationalism can never threated the nation it represents, the threats to Europe are the same ones that have been for centuries, socialism and Islam, they have evolved in various ways, socialism is menacing European society, and Islam has begun to do so too, opposing both of these is in the intrest of any European who wishes to see their children grow up in an acceptable society.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: European society is not a utopia, nor is its current form anything to be proud of, aside from the obvious scientific, cultural and technological leverage it has over the lesser cultures, which have been products of Europe ever since the Greeks (and earlier)

Using your (il)logic, the culture of the Europeans at the time of Islam's rise AND at the time of the Kingdom of Israel was in fact a "lesser" culture, especially in the case of the former.

European civilization has always had an unyielding progression in terms of culture and civilization, this being

The Etruscans, Minoans and Greeks, followed by the Romans, followed by the Charlemagne and Byzantium, to the continent-wide distribution we have today.

Quote: Quote: Europe isnt for muslims and jews, its for Europeans, I have no sympathy for the current plight of the muslims and jews, nor for any period of their histories. As examples like Rome showed, people who tolerate for too long end up dead and displaced.

Well, thanks for approving your not only anti-Muslim, but also anti-Semitic stance regarding inhabitance of Europe.

No, I just believe that borders exist for a reason, no "anti-semite" would support Israel against what they did against Lebanon, I do, becuase I believe in the sanctity of the nation and of the state, that should be defended with all measures if necessary.

Quote: Quote: I would accord them due credit, unfortunately muslims have done very little of note in these kinds of terms, you know as well as me that when a cure for AIDS is found, its almost a guarantee that is was done somewhere in the West.

You're not fooling anyone, Varyag.

Correct, only you are trying to do that.

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: No I'm talking about the acute mix of politics and islamic religion in general, apitomized by Iran, and most of the politics in the region.

Never mind that Iran's regime is a Shi'ite mullahcracy, and that Iran isn't even part of the MidEast.

Quote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there, incase you havent noticed most of you want to do a similar thing to the Jews.

What threat do they pose? Nada.

Quote: two things

1. Find a legitimate source
2. Take my challenge, look around at things in your house, or outside it, and ask whose inventive effort created it, your plumbing, the planes flying around in the sky, the electricity in your power points, the very screen you're staring at now

Muslims have contributed many material advancements to medicine, economics, sociology and mathematics among many other scientists. In fact, it was actually much later Western scientists in the post-medieval period who "reinvented the wheel", so to speak.

And contribution doesn't have to be material.

By the way, Islam contributed to the Renaissance, just so you know.

Quote: That doesent provide any answer as to why 70% of France's prison population is muslim

Why is 70% of France's prison population Muslim? Why did they just happen to be Muslim? Science Blog wrote: The supposed neutrality of the prison service in France towards the ethnic and religious backgrounds of prisoners is widely blamed by Muslim inmates as a prime cause of racist and discriminatory treatment, according to new research. In contrast, the fact that Christian chaplaincy has been a central feature of prisons in England and Wales for more than 200 years has created opportunities for religious activities from which Muslims have increasingly come to benefit, says a new study. ''We might expect that French prisons, as institutions of a religiously neutral republic, would offer better treatment to Muslims than those of England and Wales, where the Church of England and other mainstream Christian denominations have considerable influence. We found that this was not so.''From Economic Research Council:

Religious 'neutrality' in French gaols fosters racism and discrimination for Muslim prisoners

The supposed neutrality of the prison service in France towards the ethnic and religious backgrounds of prisoners is widely blamed by Muslim inmates as a prime cause of racist and discriminatory treatment, according to new research sponsored by the ESRC.

In contrast, the fact that Christian chaplaincy has been a central feature of prisons in England and Wales for more than 200 years has created opportunities for religious activities from which Muslims have increasingly come to benefit, says a study led by Professors Danielle Joly and Jim Beckford of the University of Warwick.

Professor Joly said: ''We might expect that French prisons, as institutions of a religiously neutral republic, would offer better treatment to Muslims than those of England and Wales, where the Church of England and other mainstream Christian denominations have considerable influence. We found that this was not so.

''The French state strives towards not only the legal equality of all citizens but also their assimilation into a single, indivisible culture. So, religious or ethnic minorities get very little official recognition.

''Britain, however, tends to favour integration of ethnic or religious minorities into a 'community of communities', fostering diversity as a basis for social cohesion. The development of facilities for the 5,500 Muslim prisoners in our prisons flows from such policies.''

The study says the UK's almost two million Muslims appear to be nearly three times over-represented in prisons. However, the statistics conceal the high number of foreign nationals registered as of that faith.

There are no official statistics in France about religion, but informal estimates agree that Muslims - about five million in all -- are heavily over-represented there. Again, however, the proportion of foreign nationals is thought to be high.

Muslim inmates in both countries had deep-seated concerns over not receiving halal food. In Britain, the situation was significantly better, but there were still allegations that supposedly halal food was suspect.

There was also irritation that sharing cells with non-Muslims, particularly when toilets were not separated from the rest of the cell, offended Muslim notions of hygiene and decency.

However, while Muslim prisoners tend to feel that Islam is despised in France, in England and Wales they were at least aware that official policies show respect for their religion, even if not always implemented to their satisfaction.

Provision for religious activity in French gaols depends heavily on voluntary efforts and meagre resources from the public purse. Muslims say the availability of imams and opportunities for collective prayer vary widely and are rarely adequate.

In some cases, absence of qualified imams or Muslim visitors in France allows prisoners with extremist views to exercise undue influence.

While opportunities for collective worship are patchy and poor in French prisons, they are extensive and improving in England and Wales. Publicly funded services include the presence of 17 full-time and 121 occasional Muslim chaplains.

Muslims in French gaols were particularly outspoken about racism from prison officers and other prisoners.

In England and Wales there is extensive use of religious and ethnic categories in analysing the prison population, making provision for minorities, and framing regulations against discrimination.

Nevertheless, Muslim inmates here report incidents of racism and anti-Islamic sentiment among prison officers. At the same time, they are well aware that officers can be severely punished for overt racism.

So, in short, when Muslims are being threatened in European jails, you can expect their Muslim friends outside of jail to get radicalized and commit some stupid crime, etc. My point is that these Muslims weren't thrown in jail because they were Muslim, but because of institutionalized anti-Muslim racism in France.

Quote: And endorses it at the same time, in different passages.

It does not.

Quote: A few tenths of a percent are no problem, its when the percentage numbers become whole integers that it gets problematic, I don't mind most cultures actually, most immigrants in Europe don't cause trouble, just the muslims.

Read above.

Quote: ALWAYS judge people on actions, remember the old saying, actions speak alot louder than words. Also I'm not sure you genuinely believe this, I surely do not believe there is a clear destintion between whom you call "fanatics" and what you would reguard yourself as, "moderate" I suspect. Its the degree to which one applies the text of the Koran, but far more broadly, its the deep undercurrent of muslim civilization (which I call uncivilized, you see differently), consistant bias and the use of the religion of Islam as a political leverage (and Islam suits this perfectly becuase within the Koran, Hadith and so forth one can find a passage or tale to justify almost any action), of which the Koran is a small part.

The silly poetry you pasted wasn't even part of Islamic literature. The Koran and Hadith do not justify actions of plunder, loot and rape. Varyag, I lived my religion for over my entire life and have yet to find a single verse in the Koran or Hadith that justifies any of these sacrilegeous actions. Well, I'll tell ya something: I'm not a blind follower. I know my religion, and while I may not be the most devout Muslim, I'm certainly more devout than those who commit terrorism, plunder and rape.

It's not because of Islam.

And yes, I know that actions speak louder than words. It's just that the "words" that their actions represent are more personal and social, not religious. There is a clear line between moderates and radicals, because radicals have taken the religion for their own ends.

Quote: The generality of muslims (youth especially) in Europe is alot more worrying than the occasional Al Queda member bombing a train. All people in the world have a place, many non-Europeans are perfectly civilized and capable of leading regular lives here in Europe, the Indians, various East Asians and Russians all come to mind, muslims however, on the whole are not.

You can keep repeating the same mantra, but humanity excludes nothing.

Quote: Fascism has never threatened Europe, nationalism can never threated the nation it represents, the threats to Europe are the same ones that have been for centuries, socialism and Islam, they have evolved in various ways, socialism is menacing European society, and Islam has begun to do so too, opposing both of these is in the intrest of any European who wishes to see their children grow up in an acceptable society.

Islam is far from menacing. It's only menacing to you because Islam is against racist ideologies like fascism. And following your logic, ideologies don't kill people, but people do. Also, using your (il)logic once more, more than 6,000,000 people in the history of Man have lost their lives to fascists. The numner of people who lost their lives to Muslims have never reached even 1/6th of that number.

Fascists have not been a threat to their own nations, and that's granted. However, they've been a threat to humanity more than the Muslims have.

Quote: European civilization has always had an unyielding progression in terms of culture and civilization, this being

The Etruscans, Minoans and Greeks, followed by the Romans, followed by the Charlemagne and Byzantium, to the continent-wide distribution we have today.

Charlemagne and Byzantium were not as advanced as you think they were. And yet the Muslims advanced as much. It was with the advent of Islam that the Arabs and their non-Arab Muslim counterparts were taught what civilization truly was: Islam.

But here's the thing: both were, from a neutral perspective, civilizations, and I refer to the Islamic and European civilizations. What one contributed over the other doesn't make the other backward, and it would be increasingly childish to argue so.

Quote: No, I just believe that borders exist for a reason, no "anti-semite" would support Israel against what they did against Lebanon, I do, becuase I believe in the sanctity of the nation and of the state, that should be defended with all measures if necessary.

Israel has no defined borders. It keeps taking in more and more of the West Bank and terrorizes innocent Muslims and Christians.

And then again, you believe that the ends justifies the means, and that is wrong.

Quote: Correct, only you are trying to do that.

Listen, I don't know why I bother debating with you. You obviously believe in inequality amongst men, and that itself is unChristian.

[slitedeviance]

Varyag wrote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there

So.... the Muslims who live next door to me and who were born in the same hospital as me should go where exactly?

Quote: European civilization has always had an unyielding progression in terms of culture and civilization, this being

Dark Ages?

Quote: I believe in the sanctity of the nation and of the state, that should be defended with all measures if necessary.

Iraq?

Quote: nationalism can never threated the nation it represents

Germany?

Quote: That doesent provide any answer as to why 70% of France's prison population is muslim

Sources for those stats? Also perhaps you could take a look at the poverty and ethnicity figures and correlation between the two.

[programmusic]

slitedeviance wrote: programmusic wrote: the civilians for standing around with gunmen(or, more likely, not being civilians at all)

So by your logic any Israeli that died as a result of the Katyusha rocket attacks by Hizbollah has only themselves to blame. I mean, they knew Haifa was going to be hit after day one so why did they stay?

i mean, literally standing around gunmen. As in literally surrounding them.

[programmusic]

Saracen wrote: programmusic wrote: Hmm, that's why there were attacks before the occupation. Oh yeah, by occupation you mean the state of Israel itself.

Those attacks were caused because of the Zionist apartheid and treatment of the Palestinian workers who worked on those farms, along with the symptoms of colonialist oppression from a double-edged sword.



In other words, because of the existence of Israel. There were no settlements in gaza or the west bank. And the palestinian workers were in no way being mistreated.

[emerald]

Quote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there

my, i'm so glad you're not ruling any country. you see the problem with 'us muslims' going back to where we come from is that you always seem to follow one way or another

[Venom]

Quote: I'm talking about the Muslims in Europe who are less fortunate. I know what the others are doing.
Why are Muslims in Europe less fortunate? They're plenty of them using terrorism. Look at the Subway attacks in the UK, carried about by middle class Muslims that were from the UK.
In Africa, muslims are committing genocide.
In the Middle East, they are of course carrying out terrorism, suicide bombings, etc.
Indonesia, more muslim terrorism.
North America, Muslim terrorist attacks.
It appears a good portion of the religion has been hijacked.

Quote: The I"D"F's presence is the reason for these attacks. No occupation => no attacks. That simple.
Why is this the case? Because the people of Palestine believe the occupied land is stolen land, etc?
Don't they say the same thing about all of Israel? Why yes they do.
So a military buffer zone to attempt to minimize attacks is a common sense move.
Also if you all are so worried about the occupation you could have gone through with peace talks instead of launching an onslaught of terrorist attacks.
Actions speak louder than words, and Palestines actions say they are only interested in the annhilation of Israel.

Quote: i know that Bush tries to make it really simple by putting 2 different groups, 'the good guys' (America, it's allies and all those who agree with them) and 'the bad guys' (the rest of the world who dont), but sadly the world is not simple and it is not so black and white, you'd be suprised by how much grey there is inbetween
Well if your allowing terrorist camps in your nation, their money flow, etc to go through because your "neutral" your helping them are you not? It's pretty simple.

Quote: there is always a 'but' in reasoned arguments, because with every action there is a reason, no matter what the topic, no matter how vile, there is always a 'but', doesnt mean you have to agree but theres always a reason, and unless you're willing to understand those reasons (not agree with them) then we'll just stay with 'good guy' and 'bad guy' scenario killing each other and we can endlessly debate it on here.
No if you understand why these people can convince their own children to blow themselves up in order to kill a few innocent Jews there is something wrong. The word but is not part of any reasoned argument. That is the word of someone giving an acceptance to the action. While they might not like it, they accept it. Which is wrong.

Quote: Those attacks were caused because of the Zionist apartheid and treatment of the Palestinian workers who worked on those farms, along with the symptoms of colonialist oppression from a double-edged sword.
So basically the Palestinians are the kids that have been beat up forever? Maybe if Palestine could figure out a different answer than "lets use more horrific violence" then they possibly could achieve a goal (well besides a goal of killing as many Jews as possible).

Quote: Well, thanks for approving your not only anti-Muslim, but also anti-Semitic stance regarding inhabitance of Europe.
He is anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim because he believes Europe should be a melting pot that doesn't label someone based up their religion, color, race, etc but rather upon where they are from? Hey I'm an American, plain and simple. I wish everyone was like this.

Quote: What threat do they pose? Nada.

If you do not follow the values of a group and intend to move there then you will create problems. Just like some Muslim women in the US that have requested to have their driver's license picture taken with all of head gear on....

Quote: because of institutionalized anti-Muslim racism in France.

Yes France, the country that refuses to act against any Muslim country due to fear.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

emerald wrote: Quote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there

my, i'm so glad you're not ruling any country. you see the problem with 'us muslims' going back to where we come from is that you always seem to follow one way or another

He has a big list: Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, feminists, liberals, etc are probably already on his list!!!

[Varyag]

emerald wrote: Quote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there

my, i'm so glad you're not ruling any country. you see the problem with 'us muslims' going back to where we come from is that you always seem to follow one way or another


Racist and generally intentionally offensive comments are against forum rules. Do not engage in this practice.

Leftneckredwing

[Varyag]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: emerald wrote: Quote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there

my, i'm so glad you're not ruling any country. you see the problem with 'us muslims' going back to where we come from is that you always seem to follow one way or another

He has a big list: Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, feminists, liberals, etc are probably already on his list!!!

Muslims mostly actually, most jews live respectful lives, and the other rabble you mention we can deal with internally.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: No I'm talking about the acute mix of politics and islamic religion in general, apitomized by Iran, and most of the politics in the region.

Never mind that Iran's regime is a Shi'ite mullahcracy, and that Iran isn't even part of the MidEast.

Alright pick most other muslim countries, it doesen't matter.

Quote: Quote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there, incase you havent noticed most of you want to do a similar thing to the Jews.

What threat do they pose? Nada.

I have no time for leftwing bleeding hearts, remember Hitler posed no threat to Britain in 1938 either :wink:

Quote: Quote: two things

1. Find a legitimate source
2. Take my challenge, look around at things in your house, or outside it, and ask whose inventive effort created it, your plumbing, the planes flying around in the sky, the electricity in your power points, the very screen you're staring at now

Muslims have contributed many material advancements to medicine, economics, sociology and mathematics among many other scientists. In fact, it was actually much later Western scientists in the post-medieval period who "reinvented the wheel", so to speak.

Look, peoples like the Minoans and Greeks were around thousands of years before your religion was made up by some bored camel hearder, there are no legitimate muslim claims to any invention, if muslims were truly inventive, they wouldnt have to get every piece of technology from the West.

Quote: By the way, Islam contributed to the Renaissance, just so you know.

I have no time for your psuedohistory sites.

Quote: Quote: That doesent provide any answer as to why 70% of France's prison population is muslim

Why is 70% of France's prison population Muslim? Why did they just happen to be Muslim? rs Danielle Joly and Jim Beckford of the University of Warwick.

Thats like saying that the crusaders didnt go on the crusades becuase of christianity, they just happned to be chrstians :wink:

Quote: Quote: And endorses it at the same time, in different passages.

It does not.

Again your problem, reality vs opinion, learn the difference.

Quote: Quote: ALWAYS judge people on actions, remember the old saying, actions speak alot louder than words. Also I'm not sure you genuinely believe this, I surely do not believe there is a clear destintion between whom you call "fanatics" and what you would reguard yourself as, "moderate" I suspect. Its the degree to which one applies the text of the Koran, but far more broadly, its the deep undercurrent of muslim civilization (which I call uncivilized, you see differently), consistant bias and the use of the religion of Islam as a political leverage (and Islam suits this perfectly becuase within the Koran, Hadith and so forth one can find a passage or tale to justify almost any action), of which the Koran is a small part.

The Koran and Hadith do not justify actions of plunder, loot and rape. Varyag

... reality v opinion, remember that one?

Quote: I lived my religion for over my entire life and have yet to find a single verse in the Koran or Hadith that justifies any of these sacrilegeous actions.

Well most of your fellow muslims have, maybe you should read a little harder :lol:

Quote: Well, I'll tell ya something: I'm not a blind follower. I know my religion, and while I may not be the most devout Muslim, I'm certainly more devout than those who commit terrorism, plunder and rape.

I dont see how one can be a muslim, yet not be "devout."

Quote: And yes, I know that actions speak louder than words. It's just that the "words" that their actions represent are more personal and social, not religious. There is a clear line between moderates and radicals, because radicals have taken the religion for their own ends.

And if you read your own post, so have you :wink: The piece may be different, but the cloth is the same.

Quote: Quote: The generality of muslims (youth especially) in Europe is alot more worrying than the occasional Al Queda member bombing a train. All people in the world have a place, many non-Europeans are perfectly civilized and capable of leading regular lives here in Europe, the Indians, various East Asians and Russians all come to mind, muslims however, on the whole are not.

You can keep repeating the same mantra, but humanity excludes nothing.

I do not think in such a way, humanity is far too broad to define a real identity, or to write an acceptable history. I care only for a select group of humanity, with whom I share a certain history and identity.

Quote: Quote: Fascism has never threatened Europe, nationalism can never threated the nation it represents, the threats to Europe are the same ones that have been for centuries, socialism and Islam, they have evolved in various ways, socialism is menacing European society, and Islam has begun to do so too, opposing both of these is in the intrest of any European who wishes to see their children grow up in an acceptable society.

Islam is far from menacing.

See: Ottoman empire, the moors in Spain, current muslim immigration to Europe.

Quote: Quote: European civilization has always had an unyielding progression in terms of culture and civilization, this being

The Etruscans, Minoans and Greeks, followed by the Romans, followed by the Charlemagne and Byzantium, to the continent-wide distribution we have today.

Charlemagne and Byzantium were not as advanced as you think they were.

They were far more advanced than any muslim at the time.

Quote: But here's the thing: both were, from a neutral perspective, civilizations, and I refer to the Islamic and European civilizations. What one contributed over the other doesn't make the other backward, and it would be increasingly childish to argue so.

You can keep saying that the moon is pink too, you can say it a million times, type it on this forum in your replies to my posts another million, will the moon then be pink then?

Quote: Quote: No, I just believe that borders exist for a reason, no "anti-semite" would support Israel against what they did against Lebanon, I do, becuase I believe in the sanctity of the nation and of the state, that should be defended with all measures if necessary.

Israel has no defined borders. It keeps taking in more and more of the West Bank and terrorizes innocent Muslims and Christians.

Israel has one of the most well defined borders on earth, one of military patrols and stone walls, Israels land grabbing days are over, they seem to ceding bits of it today, shame.

Quote: And then again, you believe that the ends justifies the means, and that is wrong.

Once the end is achieved, one wont have to worry about the means :wink:

Quote: Quote: Correct, only you are trying to do that.

Listen, I don't know why I bother debating with you. You obviously believe in inequality amongst men, and that itself is unChristian.

Labels are stupid, how do you even know whether I'm christian, or a jew, or even a former muslim, if we're going to have this debate, we have to realize these are screen names on a forum, here we are nothing more.

[superskippy]

Quote: They were far more advanced than any muslim at the time.

Perhaps Byzantium but not Charlamegne, his great social achievement was bringing back literacy to his Kingdom. Not exactly a massive leap forward if he had to spend his legacy making sure an ample part of his upper citizenry could read again.

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: Alright pick most other muslim countries, it doesen't matter.

But it does: most countries with a Muslim majority are secular.

Quote: I have no time for leftwing bleeding hearts, remember Hitler posed no threat to Britain in 1938 either

I have no time for your psuedohistory sites.

You have no time for the truth. That's why.

Quote: Thats like saying that the crusaders didnt go on the crusades becuase of christianity, they just happned to be chrstians

That's true. The Crusades were really more about trade routes and political influence more than about religion.

Quote: Again your problem, reality vs opinion, learn the difference.

... reality v opinion, remember that one?

You're not bringing up anything. The Koran and Hadith are clear that rape is forbidden. When a Muslim commits rape, it's not because he's Muslim.

Quote: Well most of your fellow muslims have, maybe you should read a little harder

Yes, they did.

Quote: I dont see how one can be a muslim, yet not be "devout."

It's like having a Christian who is not devout, but commits all sorts of sin. Al Qaeda in Islam = Ku Klux Klan in Christianity. Neither group represents their religion.

Quote: And if you read your own post, so have you The piece may be different, but the cloth is the same.

Why don't you read more?

Quote: I do not think in such a way, humanity is far too broad to define a real identity, or to write an acceptable history. I care only for a select group of humanity, with whom I share a certain history and identity.

And screw the rest, right?

Pathetic.

Quote: See: Ottoman empire, the moors in Spain, current muslim immigration to Europe.

Ottoman Empire was because of political ends, and the Ottomans, while brutal, were still better than the intolerant Crusaders. In Spain, Muslims and Jews co-existed peacefully, save for a few incidents. As for Muslim immigration to Europe, there is nothing threatening.

Quote: They were far more advanced than any muslim at the time.

Sorry, you have no evidence. It is clear-cut that Muslims lead a more technologically and educationally advanced society at that time.

Quote: You can keep saying that the moon is pink too, you can say it a million times, type it on this forum in your replies to my posts another million, will the moon then be pink then?

Doesn't fit. Try again.

Quote: Israel has one of the most well defined borders on earth, one of military patrols and stone walls, Israels land grabbing days are over, they seem to ceding bits of it today, shame.

No, not really. Israel keeps taking land through the wall, and through the evictions of Palestinians from THEIR LAND.

But this topic is about Islam.

Quote: Once the end is achieved, one wont have to worry about the means

Actually, you have to worry about the means, because you alone are responsible for your actions and must accept responsibility.

Quote: Labels are stupid, how do you even know whether I'm christian, or a jew, or even a former muslim, if we're going to have this debate, we have to realize these are screen names on a forum, here we are nothing more.

Let's see... you claimed that a verse in the New Testament was from a "real Holy Book", so therefore I assumed that you were Christian.

Quote: No-one in the West wants to live in the middle east its an oppressive sh*thole filled with worthless people and an even more worthless religion, its annahilation would be irrelevant to the world save for its oil.

As for ruling a country, not yet, but wait a few more years until some muslim ape burns one too many cars or rapes one too many women, muslims think they're snug here, wishful thinking

And now you wonder why Muslims are doing this? It's because you fascists were the ones who started discriminating against Muslims.

You make me sick.

[Venom]

Quote: And screw the rest, right?

Pathetic.
Why is this pathetic? Is it not exactly what everyone that is against the war in Iraq has said? Screw all the oppressed Iraqi people. Are you not against the war in Iraq? I figure for someone who was so interested in the peace and prosperity of every group of people you'd be all for Saddam being ousted. Instead your side of the argument states that containment was working (well for you, but not for anyone living in Iraq).

Quote: Al Qaeda in Islam = Ku Klux Klan in Christianity. Neither group represents their religion
While that seems like a fair comparison, the part that isn't there is a group of millions of Christians taking up the Bible as a tool to commit terorrism at every single corner of the globe.

Quote: Actually, you have to worry about the means, because you alone are responsible for your actions and must accept responsibility
Something Palestine is unable to do, nor apparently much of the Arab world.

Quote: Sorry, you have no evidence. It is clear-cut that Muslims lead a more technologically and educationally advanced society at that
I am curious as to why the Middle East is such a focus of extreme views, poverty and lack of development equal to the West. They do have a large portion of the world's #1 natural resource.

Quote: Ottoman Empire was because of political ends, and the Ottomans, while brutal, were still better than the intolerant Crusades
Arabs in this world have proven pretty inolerant.

Quote: In Spain, Muslims and Jews co-existed peacefully, save for a few incidents
So they didn't co-exist peacefully if they were fighting.

Quote: incidents. As for Muslim immigration to Europe, there is nothing threatening
I guess the UK Subway system and double decker buses blew themselves up?

[agentkgb]

Should this be in the Islam forum?

[Saracen]

Venom wrote: Why is this pathetic? Is it not exactly what everyone that is against the war in Iraq has said? Screw all the oppressed Iraqi people. Are you not against the war in Iraq? I figure for someone who was so interested in the peace and prosperity of every group of people you'd be all for Saddam being ousted. Instead your side of the argument states that containment was working (well for you, but not for anyone living in Iraq).

I am against the war in Iraq, but I was all for Saddam being ousted. However, I wanted his own people to oust him, not some foreign invader.

Quote: While that seems like a fair comparison, the part that isn't there is a group of millions of Christians taking up the Bible as a tool to commit terorrism at every single corner of the globe.

You're missing the point. Muslims are not "everywhere", and most reasons that they are radicalized are political ones.

Quote: Something Palestine is unable to do, nor apparently much of the Arab world.

Oh, please. The same can be said for Israel.

Quote: I am curious as to why the Middle East is such a focus of extreme views, poverty and lack of development equal to the West. They do have a large portion of the world's #1 natural resource.

It's because of corrupted governments that don't allow for such development.

Quote: Arabs in this world have proven pretty inolerant.

That's a big generalization. A lot of Arabs are very tolerant.

Quote: So they didn't co-exist peacefully if they were fighting.

They weren't fighting. They were living together. A few isolated incidents over a span of 500+ years still makes the coexistence peaceful.

Quote: I guess the UK Subway system and double decker buses blew themselves up?

It's not because of Muslim immigration.

[leftneckredwing]

Varyag wrote: emerald wrote: Quote: I want muslims to go back to wherever they came from and stay there

my, i'm so glad you're not ruling any country. you see the problem with 'us muslims' going back to where we come from is that you always seem to follow one way or another


Racist and generally intentionally offensive comments are against forum rules. Do not engage in this practice.

Leftneckredwing

[Venom]

Quote: I am against the war in Iraq, but I was all for Saddam being ousted. However, I wanted his own people to oust him, not some foreign invader.
This has been attempted and failed due to lack of a foreign invader's help. Saddam controlled the military along with his two sons, using chemical weapons on any revolt.
So your for using failed attempts time and time again?

Quote: You're missing the point. Muslims are not "everywhere"
Muslims are all over the globe, so they are "everywhere".

Quote: most reasons that they are radicalized are political ones
So that means it's ok because they are terrorists because of political issues? They smear and distort Islam with every attack and every terror/hate speech.

Quote: Oh, please. The same can be said for Israel.
Can it? Does Israel not bring their offenders to court? Does Israel not allow even Palestinians to file complaints to their courts? Your own article about the illegal evictions shows that they were filing in court against these actions. Meanwhile Palestine dances in the streets when there is an attack on the West.
What would you all do if you saw millions of Americans doing a jig in the streets upon a large strike on Palestine?

Quote: That's a big generalization. A lot of Arabs are very tolerant.
I meant to type "area of the world", however is this not a war of generalizations? Does your side of the argument not generalize against the Isreali people, the IDF, etc? Yes you do. Again a two way street.
I do realize that there are tolerant Arab muslims in this world, however in the Middle East they would appear to be the minority. The leaders of this part of the world allow terrorism to reach out across the globe, allow for all sorts of anti-semite, anti-west preaching even some of this done by the leaders themselves. These are "elected" leaders in many countries and thus are the voice of the people voting apparently.

Quote: It's because of corrupted governments that don't allow for such development
Which governments are corrupt?

Quote: It's not because of Muslim immigration
Well a Muslim has to migrate there to blow himself up there. Unless those crazy terrorists have made some sort of weird Star Wars type crazy suicide system where they can blow themselves up in Palestine and transfer the effects to the UK.