Political Crossfire Forums

[Venom]

Quote: Now, Muslims are being accused along the same lines.
Ya Muslims are being accused of things they don't do... well sure they blow themselves up, target innocents, preach genocide, spread hate, carryout terrorism all over the globe. Hey but goodness lets not call these people "bad" or any other name that is derogitory (regardless that these same muslims that are committing this terrorism will call you "bad" names).
Saracen
Why not try to get your country and you religion to get a grip on the radical wings it has been carrying? Muslims across the globe largely ignore terrorism, and when they do condem it it's followed by a "but...".
If your radical muslim countrymen weren't so hell bent on killing Jews you might actually have a country at this point in time. Instead you all carry out terrorist attacks during the most promising peace talks you've had and continue to think of new ways to kill those Jews.. I wonder why they have troops patrolling parts of Palestine???????
Take some responsibility.

[slitedeviance]

Venom wrote: Ya Muslims are being accused of things they don't do... well sure they blow themselves up, target innocents, preach genocide, spread hate, carryout terrorism all over the globe. Hey but goodness lets not call these people "bad" or any other name that is derogitory.

Sure.... your government relies on lies to coerce support from a massively fearful and ignorant population, has no problems with supporting corrupt regimes around the world, is staffed with politicians who seem to find it really really hard to say no to little brown envelopes, and who has no issues with supplying an armed force conducting an illegal occupation. But hey, lets not stop calling you guys "The voice of freedom and liberty".

Equivolance.

[programmusic]

seriously, I'd say the vast majority of wars and violence in the world right now is being done by muslims. For them to blame jews for it is crazy.

[slitedeviance]

programmusic wrote: seriously, I'd say the vast majority of wars and violence in the world right now is being done by muslims. For them to blame jews for it is crazy.

Really? I want a statistical breakdown if you're going to make those claims. I want a list of every active conflict that is ongoing in the world. Who the involved parties are and attrition rates on both sides.

Yes, I will admit it is crazy to place the blame solely on Jews, but it's also equally crazy to place the blame solely with the Muslims. You cannot attack bigotry on one hand whilst dishing it out with the other.

[programmusic]

http://www.historyguy.com/new_and_recent_conflicts.html

[slitedeviance]

programmusic wrote: http://www.historyguy.com/new_and_recent_conflicts.html

That site is very out of date, and doesn't seem to mention things like... the Iraq war which would seem to me to be a biggie.

[programmusic]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873849.html

[slitedeviance]

programmusic wrote: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873849.html

Fair enough I will admit that on their list of ongoing conflicts 2006 a good 85% or so involve Muslims.

Will you in turn admit that in both the Iraqi and Afghan conflict the Muslims involved were not the aggressors?

[programmusic]

that has nothing to do with the argument. The militants actually say that it's Israel's fault that they are killing Israeli civilians.

Meanwhile they're doing the same thing all over the world.

[slitedeviance]

programmusic wrote: that has nothing to do with the argument.

Actually I'd say it has everything to do with the argument if you're aiming to be fair in your assesment of worldwide conflict.

Quote: The militants actually say that it's Israel's fault that they are killing Israeli civilians.

Meanwhile they're doing the same thing all over the world.

Would you not argue that it is the Palestinians fault that the IDF are killing Palestinians? Wasn't it Hizbollahs fault that Lebanese civilians died?

[programmusic]

no, because unlike hamas and their ilk. the I.D.F. aren't going in trying to kill civilians.

[slitedeviance]

programmusic wrote: no, because unlike hamas and their ilk. the I.D.F. aren't going in trying to kill civilians.

...and yet somehow still manage it...

So who would you argue is responsible for these civilian deaths if it's not Hamas etc or the IDF?

[programmusic]

the civilians for standing around with gunmen(or, more likely, not being civilians at all)

[Saracen]

Venom wrote: Ya Muslims are being accused of things they don't do... well sure they blow themselves up, target innocents, preach genocide, spread hate, carryout terrorism all over the globe. Hey but goodness lets not call these people "bad" or any other name that is derogitory (regardless that these same muslims that are committing this terrorism will call you "bad" names).

I'm talking about the Muslims in Europe who are less fortunate. I know what the others are doing.

Quote: Saracen
Why not try to get your country and you religion to get a grip on the radical wings it has been carrying? Muslims across the globe largely ignore terrorism, and when they do condem it it's followed by a "but...".
If your radical muslim countrymen weren't so hell bent on killing Jews you might actually have a country at this point in time. Instead you all carry out terrorist attacks during the most promising peace talks you've had and continue to think of new ways to kill those Jews.. I wonder why they have troops patrolling parts of Palestine???????
Take some responsibility.

The I"D"F's presence is the reason for these attacks. No occupation => no attacks. That simple.

slitedeviance wrote: Sure.... your government relies on lies to coerce support from a massively fearful and ignorant population, has no problems with supporting corrupt regimes around the world, is staffed with politicians who seem to find it really really hard to say no to little brown envelopes, and who has no issues with supplying an armed force conducting an illegal occupation. But hey, lets not stop calling you guys "The voice of freedom and liberty".

Equivolance.

:tu:

[emerald]

Quote: Muslims across the globe largely ignore terrorism, and when they do condem it it's followed by a "but...".


i know that Bush tries to make it really simple by putting 2 different groups, 'the good guys' (America, it's allies and all those who agree with them) and 'the bad guys' (the rest of the world who dont), but sadly the world is not simple and it is not so black and white, you'd be suprised by how much grey there is inbetween. there is always a 'but' in reasoned arguments, because with every action there is a reason, no matter what the topic, no matter how vile, there is always a 'but', doesnt mean you have to agree but theres always a reason, and unless you're willing to understand those reasons (not agree with them) then we'll just stay with 'good guy' and 'bad guy' scenario killing each other and we can endlessly debate it on here.

[Saracen]

emerald wrote: Quote: Muslims across the globe largely ignore terrorism, and when they do condem it it's followed by a "but...".


i know that Bush tries to make it really simple by putting 2 different groups, 'the good guys' (America, it's allies and all those who agree with them) and 'the bad guys' (the rest of the world who dont), but sadly the world is not simple and it is not so black and white, you'd be suprised by how much grey there is inbetween. there is always a 'but' in reasoned arguments, because with every action there is a reason, no matter what the topic, no matter how vile, there is always a 'but', doesnt mean you have to agree but theres always a reason, and unless you're willing to understand those reasons (not agree with them) then we'll just stay with 'good guy' and 'bad guy' scenario killing each other and we can endlessly debate it on here.

I 100% agree.

[programmusic]

Saracen wrote:


The I"D"F's presence is the reason for these attacks. No occupation => no attacks. That simple.



Hmm, that's why there were attacks before the occupation. Oh yeah, by occupation you mean the state of Israel itself.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

emerald wrote: Quote: Muslims across the globe largely ignore terrorism, and when they do condem it it's followed by a "but...".


i know that Bush tries to make it really simple by putting 2 different groups, 'the good guys' (America, it's allies and all those who agree with them) and 'the bad guys' (the rest of the world who dont), but sadly the world is not simple and it is not so black and white, you'd be suprised by how much grey there is inbetween. there is always a 'but' in reasoned arguments, because with every action there is a reason, no matter what the topic, no matter how vile, there is always a 'but', doesnt mean you have to agree but theres always a reason, and unless you're willing to understand those reasons (not agree with them) then we'll just stay with 'good guy' and 'bad guy' scenario killing each other and we can endlessly debate it on here.

That is true. However, the Muslims are fascinating at times with the ways they invent to view the world. In fact, I have lost count of the times that I've heard a Muslim explain something in terms of some type of Western conspiracy ranging from how "homosexuality is a Western plot to recruit Arab kids" [I recently had a chance to look at an Egyptian novel called "emaret yacoubian" or something like that, which in effect claims that homosexuality is a Western "disease"] :roll: to how "the Zionist elements have decided to harm the economy of the country"!!!

I have to give it to them for their creativity. :lol:

[slitedeviance]

programmusic wrote: the civilians for standing around with gunmen(or, more likely, not being civilians at all)

So by your logic any Israeli that died as a result of the Katyusha rocket attacks by Hizbollah has only themselves to blame. I mean, they knew Haifa was going to be hit after day one so why did they stay?

[Varyag]

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Actually, now looking at this, I really have to qualify what I stated earlier about the compatability of Islam and the West: the political and communal form of Islam is what is not compatible with the West. Islam as a personal route to salvation is indeed compatible with the West.

Yep, leftism and islamism come together like a knife and fork :wink:

The ills of the "true" European society are well documented. Your utopia isn't all that great.

European society is not a utopia, nor is its current form anything to be proud of, aside from the obvious scientific, cultural and technological leverage it has over the lesser cultures, which have been products of Europe ever since the Greeks (and earlier)

Quote: Muslims for many years were tolerant of people like Jews while the "true" Europe was creating ghettos for them. Now that the "true" Europe is tired of going after the Jews, it seems that it is merely trying to go after the Muslims.

Europe isnt for muslims and jews, its for Europeans, I have no sympathy for the current plight of the muslims and jews, nor for any period of their histories. As examples like Rome showed, people who tolerate for too long end up dead and displaced.

Quote: Of course, even if a Muslim cured AIDS and ended the world hunger, I doubt that you're going to give him/her credit for doing so. It is really sad in a way how you are caught up in your moral dogma.

I would accord them due credit, unfortunately muslims have done very little of note in these kinds of terms, you know as well as me that when a cure for AIDS is found, its almost a guarantee that is was done somewhere in the West.