Political Crossfire Forums

[prometeus]

I disagree with that, but we are getting off topic, this is the 'political forum'
Perhaps we can continue in the Islam section?

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: Nobody actually wants to reform Islam, its beyond reformation and will destroy itself eventually, my concern is keeping muslims out of Europe.

Islam doesn't need reformation. It just needs to be applied correctly... that's all.

No two muslims on Earth probably have the same opinion on what that is, technically speaking Osama or Nasrallah is applying more aspects of Islam than people like you, and thus is probably more correct.

Quote: Whether it will "destroy" itself is different. Hell will freeze over before Islam dies out.

Well Iraq is certainly providing an interesting case study on internal muslim relations, whether done by muslims or others, I doubt Islam has (on a historical timescale) alot of time left, not in the civilized parts of the world anyway.

Quote: Quote: Crime, 70% of France's prison population is muslim, welfare dependancy, juvenile delinquency and terrorism. Also many of these people do try quite unsuccessfuly to apply your uncivilized, barbarian religion to others who have no intrest in sharing in your barbarism.

In any case I would have no problems with muslims whatesoever if none of them were in Europe or the West.

No one's listening to you either, Varyag.

Wrong, sir, for at the very least, you are :wink:

Quote: Muslims have no intent on forcing others to convert.

:lol:, you are seriously joking here correct? I mean all you have to do is open a decent history book to disprove that :roll:

Quote: They just want to live in peace.

A select minority, perhaps, nothing to lose any sleep over though.

Quote: You can point out crime by these delinquents, but that's just what they are: delinquents.

But they are exponentially, disproportionately muslim delinquents.

Quote: Among them are Christians and Jews and Hindus and others, EVEN FRENCH PEOPLE. So, take this nonsense about associating my religion with such inferior qualities and throw it in the dustbin. There is NO PROOF that Islam encourages such behavior.

8% of the French population are muslims, 70% of the French prison population are muslims, all those car torchings a year or so back was done by muslims, and you say there is no correlation. I've seen equally poor immigrants in France from other religious groups, they're sure not torching cars or commiting rape on any scale these good muslims are.

Quote: Quote: Its been tried many times in many different ways, but you have been slaughered everytime and thats why you're all bitter. Muslim society will always be degenerate, uncreative and uncivilized, and thats the root of muslim rage, jealousy.

Nah, you're just too blind to look at what the Western powers have done to Muslims in the past,

And you likewise with muslim powers, all historical sides have questionable pasts, yet christians, jews, hindus aren't the ones burning churches, flags and blowing themselves up on school buses.

Quote: and how Muslims seriously brought about a better change in the past by bringing forth an Empire that rivalled the intolerance of the Crusaders in its tolerance and civilization.

Again that's psuedohistory, your precious Saladin was no better a man than the Crusaders he narrowly defeated, muslim empire? I'd rather live under Stalin, what a barren hellhole of barbarism and stupidity.

Quote: I could make a racist comment like you did and say that the crusaders were swinging from trees when the Arab Muslims and Jews brought forth new innovations in Maths and Philosophy, but then again, I'm not a bigot.

Plus that would make you look like moron, since history directly supports what I say while you have to make yours up just to make your uncivilized culture a little better, when I say the West pretty much discovered and invented eveything, its true, starting with Greece then continueing to Rome, Byzantium, the Renaissance across Europe, the Industrial age and finally the modern age. So yeah just be glad you didn't.

You seem set on calling me a bigot, yet it is the facts of history itself that you find so bigoted, whether you want to admit it or not.

Quote: Quote: I dont see how you can reform history, your prophet was a pedophile, promises the violation of young boys in heaven and your so called "holy book" is one of the worlds best collections of contradictions.

Contradictions because you believe them to be contradictions. You don't know how to read the Koran and understand it at the same time, apparently.

Ok, would you like to deny that the following passages do not exist in your holy book?

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/heaven.html

Quote: Quote: Or as we call it, 700AD till present in every islamic society. Such hypocricy.

You have no idea. Look at Malaysia and other East Asian nations with Muslim majorities. Better yet, take a look at developing MidEastern and North African countries. All have successful and rising economies, save for a few.

Just wait unitl the oil runs out :wink: Malaysia cant genuinly be called an Islamic country.

Quote: Quote: We don't, gays who do not repent go to hell, simple.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13. "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Romans 1:32.

And that by the way is from a real holy book, rather than your made up one of fantastic stories of pedophilia and rewards of young boys in heaven


I already disproved this silly link that you put up. There are no young boys in Islam's heaven... The link itself is corrupted.

They're sure in the Koran, try again.

Quote: Quote: Becuase for some reasons these people cant keep out of my country.

Just because they're living there, and you want them out? Where do you live?

Somewhere civilized where muslims have no place.

Quote: Quote: Yep, but to be fair its their choice to live with this dishonor, nobody makes their decisions for them.

That's not dishonor. A woman can honor herself and at the same time keep to her decisions and dignity. That part aside...

Well yeah, but not if she's doing porno's :lol:

Quote: Quote: Yes he is, what can you do, secualar progressive brainwashing.

Your ideas are quite conservative. I propose religious progressive brainwashing.

No, firstly becuase that implies that religion is a collective action (which it isn't, its a personal matter), secondly becuase holy texts must be interpreted to their word, not re-interpreted to fit in with homosexuality or anthing else (or the reverse with Islam).

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: No two muslims on Earth probably have the same opinion on what that is, technically speaking Osama or Nasrallah is applying more aspects of Islam than people like you, and thus is probably more correct.

They're politicians, not clergy.

Quote: Well Iraq is certainly providing an interesting case study on internal muslim relations, whether done by muslims or others, I doubt Islam has (on a historical timescale) alot of time left, not in the civilized parts of the world anyway.

That's what you think.

Quote: , you are seriously joking here correct? I mean all you have to do is open a decent history book to disprove that

They may have done so in the past, but not so profusely. All those who lived under their rule were better off than those who lived under the Christendom in Europe at that time.

Quote: But they are exponentially, disproportionately muslim delinquents.

Their religion has nothing to do with what they do. They're punished, in the end.

Quote: And you likewise with muslim powers, all historical sides have questionable pasts, yet christians, jews, hindus aren't the ones burning churches, flags and blowing themselves up on school buses.

Following your logic, Christians, Jews and Hindus not only bulldoze homes and kill innocents, but destroy mosques, force their people to convert, raze the infrastructure of entire nations, and nuked a city full of innocent people in it. If you want to go over this senseless collective talk, be my guest.

Quote: Again that's psuedohistory, your precious Saladin was no better a man than the Crusaders he narrowly defeated, muslim empire? I'd rather live under Stalin, what a barren hellhole of barbarism and stupidity.

You mean the human Saladin?

Quote: Ok, would you like to deny that the following passages do not exist in your holy book?

I read the Koran over 6 times and have yet to find something perverted. The translations in the link you provided are not only way off but are incorrect. The boys are not for pedophilia, but are servants. Just because they are described as handsome doesn't make them objects of sex. Same as the women in paradise.

Quote: Somewhere civilized where muslims have no place.

I live somewhere civilized where everyone has a place. And because everyone has a place, it's civilized.

Quote: No, firstly becuase that implies that religion is a collective action (which it isn't, its a personal matter), secondly becuase holy texts must be interpreted to their word, not re-interpreted to fit in with homosexuality or anthing else (or the reverse with Islam).

Maybe Christianity, but not Islam. Islam is different. Plus, I really doubt you've read the entire Koran. The Koran contains only 5 commands to kill and TWELVE commands to fight. And these 5 commands to kill are only in cases when you're in war and you're in self-defense.

In the Koran, God wrote: 1. Respect and honour all human beings irrespective of their religion,
colour, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job
and so on [Qur'an17/70]

2. Talk straight, to the point, without any ambiguity or deception
[Qur'an33/70]

3. Choose best words to speak and say them in the best possible way
[Qur'an17/53, 2/83]

4. Do not shout. Speak politely keeping your voice low. [Qur'an31/19]

5. Always speak the truth. Shun words that are deceitful and
ostentatious [Qur'an22/30]

6. Do not confound truth with falsehood [Qur'an2/42]

7. Say with your mouth what is in your heart [Qur'an3/167]

8. Speak in a civilised manner in a language that is recognised by the
society and is commonly used [Qur'an4/5]

9. When you voice an opinion, be just, even if it is against a
relative [Qur'an6/152]

10. Do not be a bragging boaster [Qur'an31/18]

11. Do not talk, listen or do anything vain [Qur'an23/3, 28/55]

12. Do not participate in any paltry. If you pass near a futile play,
then pass by with dignity [Qur'an25/72]

13. Do not verge upon any immodesty or lewdness whether surreptitious
or overt [Qur'an6/151]

14. If, unintentionally, any misconduct occurs by you, then correct
yourself expeditiously [Qur'an3/134]

15. Do not be contemptuous or arrogant with people [Qur'an31/18]

16. Do not walk haughtily or with conceit [Qur'an17/37, 31/18]

17. Be moderate in thy pace [Qur'an31/19]

18. Walk with humility and sedateness [Qur'an25/63]

19. Keep your gazes lowered devoid of any lecherous leers and
salacious stares [Qur'an24/30-31, 40/19]

20. If you do not have complete knowledge about anything, it is better
to keep silent. You might think that speaking about something without
full knowledge is a trivial matter. But it might have grave
consequences
[Qur'an24/15-16]

21. When you hear something malicious about someone, keep a favourable
view about him/her until you attain full knowledge about the matter.
Consider others innocent until they are proven guilty with solid and
truthful evidence [Qur'an24/12-13]

22. Ascertain the truth of any news, lest you smite someone in
ignorance and afterwards repent of what you did [Qur'an49/6]

23. Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct
knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you
must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be
held
accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning
[Qur'an17/36]

24. Never think that you have reached the final stage of knowledge and
nobody knows more than yourself. Remember! Above everyone endowed with
knowledge is another endowed with more knowledge [Qur'an12/76]. Even
the Prophet [p.b.u.h] was asked to keep praying, "O My sustainer!
Advance
me in knowledge." [Qur'an20:114]

25. The believers are but a single Brotherhood. Live like members of
one family, brothers and sisters unto one another [Qur'an49/10]

26. Do not make mockery of others or ridicule others [Qur'an49/11]

27. Do not defame others [Qur'an49/11]

28. Do not insult others by nicknames [Qur'an49/11]

29. Avoid suspicion and guesswork. Suspicion and guesswork might
deplete your communal energy [Qur'an49/12]

30. Spy not upon one another [Qur'an49/12]

31. Do not backbite one another [Qur'an49/12]

32. When you meet each other, offer good wishes and blessings for
safety. One who conveys to you a message of safety and security and
also when a courteous greeting is offered to you, meet it with a
greeting
still more courteous or (at least) of equal courtesy [Qur'an4/86]

33. When you enter your own home or the home of somebody else,
compliment the inmates [Qur'an24/61]

34. Do not enter houses other than your own until you have sought
permission; and then greet the inmates and wish them a life of
blessing,purity and pleasure [Qur'an24/27]

35. Treat kindly: Your parents; Relatives; The orphans; And those who
have been left alone in the society [Qur'an4/36]

36. Take care of: The needy, The disabled, Those whose hard earned
income is insufficient to meet their needs; And those whose
businesses have stalled ; And those who have lost their jobs.
[Qur'an4/36]

37. Treat kindly: Your related neighbours, and unrelated neighbours;
Companions by your side in public gatherings, or public
transportation.[Qur'an4/36]

38. Be generous to the needy wayfarer, the homeless son of the
street,and the one who reaches you in a destitute condition
[Qur'an4/36]

39. Be nice to people who work under your care. [Qur'an4/36]

40. Do not follow up what you have given to others to afflict them
with reminders of your generosity [Qur'an2/262]

41. Do not expect a return for your good behaviour, not even thanks
[Qur'an76/9]

42. Cooperate with one another in good deeds and do not cooperate with
others in evil and bad matters [Qur'an5/2]

43. Do no try to impress people on account of self-proclaimed virtues
[Qur'an53/32]

44. You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways
first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good
deeds yourself, then preach [Qur'an2/44]

45. Correct yourself and your families first [before trying to correct
others] [Qur'an66/6]

46. Pardon gracefully if anyone among you who commits a bad deed out
of ignorance, and then repents and amends [Qur'an6/54, 3/134]

47. Divert and sublimate your anger and potentially virulent emotions
to creative energy, and become a source of tranquillity and comfort to
people [Qur'an3/134]

48. Call people to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful
exhortation. Reason with them most decently [Qur'an16/125]

49. Leave to themselves those who do not give any importance to the
Divine code and have adopted and consider it as mere play and
amusement [Qur'an6/70]

50. Sit not in the company of those who ridicule Divine Law unless
they engage in some other conversation [Qur'an4/140]

51. Do not be jealous of those who are blessed [Qur'an4/54]

52. In your collective life, make rooms for others [Qur'an58/11]

53. When invited to dine, Go at the appointed time. Do not arrive too
early to wait for the preparation of meal or linger after eating to
engage in bootless babble. Such things may cause inconvenience to the
host [Qur'an33/53]

54. Eat and drink [what is lawful] in moderation [Qur'an7/31]

55. Do not squander your wealth senselessly [Qur'an17/26]

56. Fulfil your promises and commitments [Qur'an17/34]

57. Keep yourself clean, pure [Qur'an9/108, 4/43, 5/6]

58. Dress-up in agreeable attire and adorn yourself with exquisite
character from inside out [Qur'an7/26]

59. Seek your provision only by fair endeavour [Qur'an29/17, 2/188]

60. Do not devour the wealth and property of others unjustly, nor
bribe the officials or the judges to deprive others of their
possessions
[Qur'an2/188]

Beat that, will you?

[superskippy]

Quote: And you likewise with muslim powers, all historical sides have questionable pasts, yet christians, jews, hindus aren't the ones burning churches, flags and blowing themselves up on school buses.

No but Christians and other faiths blood on their hands for religious violence that continues to this day.

Quote: Again that's psuedohistory, your precious Saladin was no better a man than the Crusaders he narrowly defeated, muslim empire? I'd rather live under Stalin, what a barren hellhole of barbarism and stupidity.

Here I must vehemently disagree, Saladin was far better then the Crusaders he spared the captured Christian cities, he saved thousands of Jews by hiding them behind his banner, and he allowed freedom of religion and destroyed no holy sites. The man was not blinded by religious intolerance and his Aid de Camp was a Jew and he awareded the greatest honors of his kingdom to him. Of course he was not pure and had sins but he was still a great man perhaps the greatest that has arisen in all the ages of the Arab world.

The Crusaders massacres hundreds of thousands of people including Jews, Christians, and Muslims, they burned holy sites, they razed cities, they perscuted to the utmost extreme all other faiths save perhaps some of the independent kings but only to an extent, they were brutal beyond anything that Saladin can be compared to.

As for trying to say you would rather live under Stalin that is a foolish thing to say.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: No two muslims on Earth probably have the same opinion on what that is, technically speaking Osama or Nasrallah is applying more aspects of Islam than people like you, and thus is probably more correct.

They're politicians, not clergy.

Incase you haven't noticed, those two things are interchangeable in the middle east.

Quote: Quote: Well Iraq is certainly providing an interesting case study on internal muslim relations, whether done by muslims or others, I doubt Islam has (on a historical timescale) alot of time left, not in the civilized parts of the world anyway.

That's what you think.

True, but its not solely my opinion.

Quote: Quote: , you are seriously joking here correct? I mean all you have to do is open a decent history book to disprove that

They may have done so in the past, but not so profusely. All those who lived under their rule were better off than those who lived under the Christendom in Europe at that time.

:lol:

Seriously the Islamic and Ottoman Empires were the two most oppressive, anti-civilized, anti-progress empires on Earth at the time they existed, that actually has a modern proof as well, look around your house at any item and ask yourself who invented it, chances are it was a Westerner.

Quote: Quote: But they are exponentially, disproportionately muslim delinquents.

Their religion has nothing to do with what they do. They're punished, in the end.

Well thats not certain, based on simple derivative fact, and the fact that the one linking factor of these people is religion, it would be very difficult for you to prove such a statement.

Quote: Quote: And you likewise with muslim powers, all historical sides have questionable pasts, yet christians, jews, hindus aren't the ones burning churches, flags and blowing themselves up on school buses.

Following your logic, Christians, Jews and Hindus not only bulldoze homes and kill innocents, but destroy mosques, force their people to convert, raze the infrastructure of entire nations, and nuked a city full of innocent people in it. If you want to go over this senseless collective talk, be my guest.

All of the things you state were done for reasons other than religion, and always with provocation.

Quote: Quote: Again that's psuedohistory, your precious Saladin was no better a man than the Crusaders he narrowly defeated, muslim empire? I'd rather live under Stalin, what a barren hellhole of barbarism and stupidity.

You mean the human Saladin?

Well yes, everyone is human, what else would they be? Even your prophet was human

Quote: Quote: Ok, would you like to deny that the following passages do not exist in your holy book?

I read the Koran over 6 times and have yet to find something perverted. The translations in the link you provided are not only way off but are incorrect. The boys are not for pedophilia, but are servants. Just because they are described as handsome doesn't make them objects of sex. Same as the women in paradise.

Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

The relevant verses from the Koran are:

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

As mentioned in my previous article, famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality. As an example I am including a poem in 'Perfumed Garden' by Abu Nuwas:
O the joy of sodomy!
So now be sodomites, you Arabs.
Turn not away from it--
therein is wondrous pleasure.
Take some coy lad with kiss-curls
twisting on his temple
and ride as he stands like some gazelle
standing to her mate.
A lad whom all can see girt with sword
and belt not like your w**** who has
to go veiled.
Make for smooth-faced boys and do your
very best to mount them, for women are
the mounts of the devils

Need I say anything more after this colorful rendition by Abu Nuwas?

Quote: Quote: Somewhere civilized where muslims have no place.

I live somewhere civilized where everyone has a place. And because everyone has a place, it's civilized.

Nations where everyone has a place do not last long, and I'm pretty sure countries in the ME are generally no nice places for people other than arab/muslim to live.

Quote: Quote: No, firstly becuase that implies that religion is a collective action (which it isn't, its a personal matter), secondly becuase holy texts must be interpreted to their word, not re-interpreted to fit in with homosexuality or anthing else (or the reverse with Islam).

Maybe Christianity, but not Islam. Islam is different. Plus, I really doubt you've read the entire Koran. The Koran contains only 5 commands to kill and TWELVE commands to fight. And these 5 commands to kill are only in cases when you're in war and you're in self-defense.

I have no need to read the Koran, only to read the actions of its followers, a lifetime of action is worth more than some empty rhetoric from the Koran , believe me.

[superskippy]

Quote: Seriously the Islamic and Ottoman Empires were the two most oppressive, anti-civilized, anti-progress empires on Earth at the time they existed, that actually has a modern proof as well, look around your house at any item and ask yourself who invented it, chances are it was a Westerner.

You cant honestly beleive that? You can tell me with a straight face that it was better for people to live under the rule of the Frankish Kingdoms or the Hungarian States then to live under the banner of the Ottomans or the Calaphite? That just doesnt make any sense. The kingdoms of Europe were the epitomy of violence, brutality, oppression, and discord. The Venentian States for example the richest of the Christian Kingdoms were oppressive, intolorant, torn by discord with the Church and advances in Dalmatia that caused intence ethnic slaughter and conflict, religious persicution, and more. For several hundred years the Caliphite was the beacon of civilization in comparison to what the Europeon kingdoms were.

[Venom]

Quote: Neither can I. And by this, I mean the governments. I think it's best that interventionism should be put to a complete full stop.
Ok so don't ask for our money, food, or any other aid.... also don't ask for our help when someone invades one of your countries. Next time a disaster hits or whatever your on your own. Also as far as Israel the gloves are off, we don't care if they nuke all of you and we will not attempt to stop them because hey it's none of our business.

[emerald]

Quote: Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

:shock: seriously.........ignorance is really not a pretty sight, i really recommend you try reading some decent sites in future with at least some truth in it, that doesnt involve your facination with pedophiles and young boys........oh and which civilised country did you say you were from exactly???

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Varyag wrote: Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

Is this an attempt to bash Islam and homosexuality at the same time [kill two birds with one stone :roll: ]?

Firstly, homosexuals are not pedophiles. It is really typical that you attempt to connect the two together!

Secondly, [unfortunately] Islam does not condone homosexuality and even though homosexuality exists in Islamic countries, homosexuals are treated with contempt and discrimination a lot of times [if not with death sentences] in many Islamic countries. So, please look at how homosexuals are treated in the Islamic tradition before making ignorant comments.

Thirdly, [even though I am guilty of this myself] stop bashing Islam. Your beliefs are far more repressive than anything in Islam. I dare not think how you treat someone if you find out he/she is a homosexual!

Fourthly, with apologies to Saracen and other decent Muslims [who are virtuous people], I do not believe Islam is compatible with many of the core Western values, which is why the clash of these values with Islamic values are increasing both in magnitude and in quantity.

[Varyag]

emerald wrote: Quote: Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

:shock: seriously.........ignorance is really not a pretty sight,

Therefore all muslims are ugly?

Quote: i really recommend you try reading some decent sites in future with at least some truth in it,

I mostly don't read sites, I read books and then form my own opinion, you cant change what something like the Koran says, get over it.

Quote: that doesnt involve your facination with pedophiles and young boys

The fascination is not mine, its the Koran's and the pedo who inspired it :lol:

[Varyag]

superskippy wrote: Quote: Seriously the Islamic and Ottoman Empires were the two most oppressive, anti-civilized, anti-progress empires on Earth at the time they existed, that actually has a modern proof as well, look around your house at any item and ask yourself who invented it, chances are it was a Westerner.

You cant honestly beleive that? You can tell me with a straight face that it was better for people to live under the rule of the Frankish Kingdoms or the Hungarian States then to live under the banner of the Ottomans or the Calaphite?

Yes, note what the Ottomans did to the Greeks for centuries or to the citizens of Constantinople.

Quote: The kingdoms of Europe were the epitomy of violence, brutality, oppression, and discord. The Venentian States for example the richest of the Christian Kingdoms were oppressive, intolorant, torn by discord with the Church and advances in Dalmatia that caused intence ethnic slaughter and conflict, religious persicution, and more.

Oppressive and intolerant towards whom?

Yes European States were not perfect, nobody is saying that they were.

Quote: For several hundred years the Caliphite was the beacon of civilization in comparison to what the Europeon kingdoms were.

Maybe a beacon for your own twisted views on history, but modernity speaks alot more about history than your attempts to make a barbaric peoples look civilized.

[Varyag]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Varyag wrote: Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

Is this an attempt to bash Islam and homosexuality at the same time [kill two birds with one stone :roll: ]?

Well neither can be viewed positively in a true European society, so take your pick.

Quote: Firstly, homosexuals are not pedophiles. It is really typical that you attempt to connect the two together!

No they're not, just seven times more likely to be

Quote: Secondly, [unfortunately]

No, fortunately, and neither does christianity or any decent minded person.

Quote: Islam does not condone homosexuality and even though homosexuality exists in Islamic countries, homosexuals are treated with contempt and discrimination a lot of times [if not with death sentences] in many Islamic countries. So, please look at how homosexuals are treated in the Islamic tradition before making ignorant comments.

We're not talking about homosexuality in public, but in private, and as posted above, the rates are startling.

Quote: Thirdly, [even though I am guilty of this myself] stop bashing Islam. Your beliefs are far more repressive than anything in Islam. I dare not think how you treat someone if you find out he/she is a homosexual!

Its not the indavidual gay I oppose (really I dont care if a guy prefers another guys colon to what is natural), its the gay collective. And my beliefs don't even come close to Islam, I highly doubt a country run by me would have the death penalty for homosexuality.

Quote: Fourthly, with apologies to Saracen and other decent Muslims [who are virtuous people], I do not believe Islam is compatible with many of the core Western values, which is why the clash of these values with Islamic values are increasing both in magnitude and in quantity.

Funny thing is, neither are yours.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Varyag wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Is this an attempt to bash Islam and homosexuality at the same time [kill two birds with one stone :roll: ]?

Well neither can be viewed positively in a true European society, so take your pick.

Ha! A "true" European society? Do you mean the feudal European society? At that time, the Muslims were making great discoveries while the great "true" Europeans were running around catching witches!!! :roll:

Varyag wrote: Quote: Firstly, homosexuals are not pedophiles. It is really typical that you attempt to connect the two together!

No they're not, just seven times more likely to be

The "Family" Research Institute makes me laugh. They should be re-labelled anti-gay Research Institute as they blame homosexuality for all the ills of the society and they are so obssesed by it that it is sometimes borderline paranoia.

Anyhow, as for the charge you are raising, this study makes a dishonest use of labels. A pedophile is a person who has a condition where he/she has "a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners". Now, the fact is such person is sexually aroused by a young person. I do NOT see how one can honestly label pedophilia as homosexual or heterosexual, which are totally different alltogether.

Varyag wrote: Quote: Secondly, [unfortunately]

No, fortunately, and neither does christianity or any decent minded person.

"Decent" minded people? I am not sure if that is a label that I apply to the "holier than though" people or the righteous people. Such people are not decent minded. In fact, they are arrogant if anything in that they are so caught up in their own interpretation of their religious text that decent is the last thing that could be used to describe them.

Varyag wrote: Quote: Islam does not condone homosexuality and even though homosexuality exists in Islamic countries, homosexuals are treated with contempt and discrimination a lot of times [if not with death sentences] in many Islamic countries. So, please look at how homosexuals are treated in the Islamic tradition before making ignorant comments.

We're not talking about homosexuality in public, but in private, and as posted above, the rates are startling.

Take your pick ... are you talking about homosexuality or pedophilia? And are you talking about Islam's condoning such acts or you talking about some people doing it on their own?

You are so caught up in your hatred of Islam that you just hurl ANYTHING at it.

Are you just making claims because you don't like homosexuals and since homosexuals are "filthy b*stards", then it must be an Islamic phenomenon!!!

Varyag wrote: Quote: Thirdly, [even though I am guilty of this myself] stop bashing Islam. Your beliefs are far more repressive than anything in Islam. I dare not think how you treat someone if you find out he/she is a homosexual!

Its not the indavidual gay I oppose (really I dont care if a guy prefers another guys colon to what is natural), its the gay collective.

Yeah, you just accuse them of being pedophiles [and causing almost all other ills in the society] ... no big deal. :roll:

And don't talk about natural. How do you know what is natural? Just because Bible says something doesn't make something natural. If anything, homosexuality occurs in the nature as you can observe it in animals.

Varyag wrote: And my beliefs don't even come close to Islam, I highly doubt a country run by me would have the death penalty for homosexuality.

Of course not. You will just marginalize and insult homosexuals and belittle them as much as you can, so that they take their own "filthy" lives themselves by committing sucide. Or better yet, you might start up a camp for "curing" these "morally diseased" people. :roll:

Varyag wrote: Quote: Fourthly, with apologies to Saracen and other decent Muslims [who are virtuous people], I do not believe Islam is compatible with many of the core Western values, which is why the clash of these values with Islamic values are increasing both in magnitude and in quantity.

Funny thing is, neither are yours.

Of course, I am not part of any "true" European society and I don't want to be anyhow. If I had a choice between a "true" European society and the Islamic society, I'd rather lived in an Islamic society. At least in most Islamic societies, people are hospitable for the most parts to their guests and they are honourable.

Actually, now looking at this, I really have to qualify what I stated earlier about the compatability of Islam and the West: the political and communal form of Islam is what is not compatible with the West. Islam as a personal route to salvation is indeed compatible with the West.

[Varyag]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Varyag wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Is this an attempt to bash Islam and homosexuality at the same time [kill two birds with one stone :roll: ]?

Well neither can be viewed positively in a true European society, so take your pick.

Ha! A "true" European society? Do you mean the feudal European society? At that time, the Muslims were making great discoveries while the great "true" Europeans were running around catching witches!!! :roll:

1. No they were not.
2. There is no such thing as a unitary "feudal society"

I'm talking about the history of European society and the advances it made all inclusive.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Firstly, homosexuals are not pedophiles. It is really typical that you attempt to connect the two together!

No they're not, just seven times more likely to be

The "Family" Research Institute makes me laugh. They should be re-labelled anti-gay Research Institute as they blame homosexuality for all the ills of the society and they are so obssesed by it that it is sometimes borderline paranoia.

Oh suddenly the Regent University Law Review and the Council for National Policy in Washington are "anti gay research institutes" and must be "re-labelled." It seems that anyone who asks the relevant questions about homosexuality suddenly must be "condemed" and "branded." Homsexuals promote a lifestyle and culture that is at its core incompatible with western survival.

Quote: Anyhow, as for the charge you are raising, this study makes a dishonest use of labels. A pedophile is a person who has a condition where he/she has "a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners". Now, the fact is such person is sexually aroused by a young person. I do NOT see how one can honestly label pedophilia as homosexual or heterosexual, which are totally different alltogether.

Male-male pedophilia or female-female pedophilia would be classed as homosexual.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Secondly, [unfortunately]

No, fortunately, and neither does christianity or any decent minded person.

"Decent" minded people?

Yes decent people who dont believe this homo bs shouldnt be shovelled into our school and governmental system.

Quote: I am not sure if that is a label that I apply to the "holier than though" people or the righteous people. Such people are not decent minded. In fact, they are arrogant if anything in that they are so caught up in their own interpretation of their religious text that decent is the last thing that could be used to describe them.

What makes you think I'm religious? Would you be surprised if I told you I was agnostic? Or is it only christians now who want to protect their children, families and government?

Quote: You are so caught up in your hatred of Islam that you just hurl ANYTHING at it.

Not anything, everything relevant :wink:
Quote: Are you just making claims because you don't like homosexuals and since homosexuals are "filthy b*stards", then it must be an Islamic phenomenon!!!

I certainly wish it were, but unfortunately homoesexuality is a worldwide problem.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Thirdly, [even though I am guilty of this myself] stop bashing Islam. Your beliefs are far more repressive than anything in Islam. I dare not think how you treat someone if you find out he/she is a homosexual!

Its not the indavidual gay I oppose (really I dont care if a guy prefers another guys colon to what is natural), its the gay collective.

Yeah, you just accuse them of being pedophiles [and causing almost all other ills in the society] ... no big deal. :roll:

Well they are seven times more likely to be pedophiles, I'm not going to withhold that, I'm not PC.

Quote: And don't talk about natural. How do you know what is natural? Just because Bible says something doesn't make something natural. If anything, homosexuality occurs in the nature as you can observe it in animals.

Dont bring the bible into this (see above), the bible has its own opinion, and I have mine. what is natural is what has purpose and of regular occurance.


Quote: Varyag wrote: And my beliefs don't even come close to Islam, I highly doubt a country run by me would have the death penalty for homosexuality.

Of course not. You will just marginalize and insult homosexuals and belittle them as much as you can, so that they take their own "filthy" lives themselves by committing sucide. Or better yet, you might start up a camp for "curing" these "morally diseased" people. :roll:

Nah the camp thing is a little hitleresque, people shouldnt have to spend a dollar of tax on homosexuals, the suicide suggestion would sure make things easier though :lol: Again I dont care about homosexuals per se, but rather their activism that is trying to destroy society (they're not the only group though), like in Philidelphia and their "gay history month" in school districts, nobody should have to learn about gays or have positive falsities about gays imposed on them, especially the minds of children.

Anyway why with all the radical defence of homosexuality, a little of that inclination yourself?

Quote: Actually, now looking at this, I really have to qualify what I stated earlier about the compatability of Islam and the West: the political and communal form of Islam is what is not compatible with the West. Islam as a personal route to salvation is indeed compatible with the West.

Yep, leftism and islamism come together like a knife and fork :wink:

[superskippy]

Quote: Yes, note what the Ottomans did to the Greeks for centuries or to the citizens of Constantinople.

Your displaying bits and pieces of a very complex history and even the Ottomans worse crimes in the Balkans paled in comparison to the Christian Kingdoms atrocities and oppression. The Balkans has always known violence and atrocity, from the Bulgarian slaughter of the Ottomans when they crossed the straits, to the Ottoman revenge as they defeated the Slavic kings.

For every Ottoman or Caliphite sin or crime you can name 20 from the Christian Kingdoms of those ages and always worse atroticities to be found.

Quote: Oppressive and intolerant towards whom?

Yes European States were not perfect, nobody is saying that they were.

To whom? To Jews, other Christians, Muslims, Pagans, and in general everyone especially Jews though. THe Europeon states werent perfect, werent good, and werent fair. They were horrible their only trait is that they lay the foundations for the future of Europe and the might of their feudal armies and warlords kept Europe afloat and several enlightened idea did get bult upon.

Quote: Maybe a beacon for your own twisted views on history, but modernity speaks alot more about history than your attempts to make a barbaric peoples look civilized.

For my own twisted views of history? I view history in it's full length and Europe fell into a horrendous dark age after the fall of Rome and was quickly eclipsed in both civilization, and culture by the Caliphite and Ottomans of those days. They lacked a shred of tolerance and committed atrocities on a constant and immense scale.

As for attempting to make a barbaric people look civilized, you are trying to make a Christian world of horror and constant warfare look like a beacon of civilization in comparison to the realtivly peaceful lands of the Caliphite and the Ottomans as well as their mighty cities that rose from the deserts.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Varyag wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Varyag wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Is this an attempt to bash Islam and homosexuality at the same time [kill two birds with one stone :roll: ]?

Well neither can be viewed positively in a true European society, so take your pick.

Ha! A "true" European society? Do you mean the feudal European society? At that time, the Muslims were making great discoveries while the great "true" Europeans were running around catching witches!!! :roll:

1. No they were not.
2. There is no such thing as a unitary "feudal society"

I'm talking about the history of European society and the advances it made all inclusive.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Firstly, homosexuals are not pedophiles. It is really typical that you attempt to connect the two together!

No they're not, just seven times more likely to be

The "Family" Research Institute makes me laugh. They should be re-labelled anti-gay Research Institute as they blame homosexuality for all the ills of the society and they are so obssesed by it that it is sometimes borderline paranoia.

Oh suddenly the Regent University Law Review and the Council for National Policy in Washington are "anti gay research institutes" and must be "re-labelled." It seems that anyone who asks the relevant questions about homosexuality suddenly must be "condemed" and "branded." Homsexuals promote a lifestyle and culture that is at its core incompatible with western survival.

Quote: Anyhow, as for the charge you are raising, this study makes a dishonest use of labels. A pedophile is a person who has a condition where he/she has "a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners". Now, the fact is such person is sexually aroused by a young person. I do NOT see how one can honestly label pedophilia as homosexual or heterosexual, which are totally different alltogether.

Male-male pedophilia or female-female pedophilia would be classed as homosexual.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Secondly, [unfortunately]

No, fortunately, and neither does christianity or any decent minded person.

"Decent" minded people?

Yes decent people who dont believe this homo bs shouldnt be shovelled into our school and governmental system.

Quote: I am not sure if that is a label that I apply to the "holier than though" people or the righteous people. Such people are not decent minded. In fact, they are arrogant if anything in that they are so caught up in their own interpretation of their religious text that decent is the last thing that could be used to describe them.

What makes you think I'm religious? Would you be surprised if I told you I was agnostic? Or is it only christians now who want to protect their children, families and government?

Quote: You are so caught up in your hatred of Islam that you just hurl ANYTHING at it.

Not anything, everything relevant :wink:
Quote: Are you just making claims because you don't like homosexuals and since homosexuals are "filthy b*stards", then it must be an Islamic phenomenon!!!

I certainly wish it were, but unfortunately homoesexuality is a worldwide problem.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Thirdly, [even though I am guilty of this myself] stop bashing Islam. Your beliefs are far more repressive than anything in Islam. I dare not think how you treat someone if you find out he/she is a homosexual!

Its not the indavidual gay I oppose (really I dont care if a guy prefers another guys colon to what is natural), its the gay collective.

Yeah, you just accuse them of being pedophiles [and causing almost all other ills in the society] ... no big deal. :roll:

Well they are seven times more likely to be pedophiles, I'm not going to withhold that, I'm not PC.

Quote: And don't talk about natural. How do you know what is natural? Just because Bible says something doesn't make something natural. If anything, homosexuality occurs in the nature as you can observe it in animals.

Dont bring the bible into this (see above), the bible has its own opinion, and I have mine. what is natural is what has purpose and of regular occurance.


Quote: Varyag wrote: And my beliefs don't even come close to Islam, I highly doubt a country run by me would have the death penalty for homosexuality.

Of course not. You will just marginalize and insult homosexuals and belittle them as much as you can, so that they take their own "filthy" lives themselves by committing sucide. Or better yet, you might start up a camp for "curing" these "morally diseased" people. :roll:

Nah the camp thing is a little hitleresque, people shouldnt have to spend a dollar of tax on homosexuals, the suicide suggestion would sure make things easier though :lol: Again I dont care about homosexuals per se, but rather their activism that is trying to destroy society (they're not the only group though), like in Philidelphia and their "gay history month" in school districts, nobody should have to learn about gays or have positive falsities about gays imposed on them, especially the minds of children.

Anyway why with all the radical defence of homosexuality, a little of that inclination yourself?

I don't want to derail this thread, so please feel free to continue this discussion, here:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67782&highlight=

Varyag wrote: Quote: Actually, now looking at this, I really have to qualify what I stated earlier about the compatability of Islam and the West: the political and communal form of Islam is what is not compatible with the West. Islam as a personal route to salvation is indeed compatible with the West.

Yep, leftism and islamism come together like a knife and fork :wink:

The ills of the "true" European society are well documented. Your utopia isn't all that great. Muslims for many years were tolerant of people like Jews while the "true" Europe was creating ghettos for them. Now that the "true" Europe is tired of going after the Jews, it seems that it is merely trying to go after the Muslims.

Of course, even if a Muslim cured AIDS and ended the world hunger, I doubt that you're going to give him/her credit for doing so. It is really sad in a way how you are caught up in your moral dogma.

[emerald]

Quote: Therefore all muslims are ugly?

Quote: i really recommend you try reading some decent sites in future with at least some truth in it,


I mostly don't read sites, I read books and then form my own opinion, you cant change what something like the Koran says, get over it.

Quote: that doesnt involve your facination with pedophiles and young boys


The fascination is not mine, its the Koran's and the pedo who inspired it

you'd make a great specimen for any psychology student :lol: and i mean that in the nicest possible way :)

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: Incase you haven't noticed, those two things are interchangeable in the middle east.

Not really. Most of the clergy that I know of are those who give my speech in the local mosque, and I have yet to hear them denounce "infidels".

Quote: True, but its not solely my opinion.

You're right. It's the opinion of every other person who just wants to see the Holocaust repeated on the Muslims.

Shame on you.

Quote: Seriously the Islamic and Ottoman Empires were the two most oppressive, anti-civilized, anti-progress empires on Earth at the time they existed, that actually has a modern proof as well, look around your house at any item and ask yourself who invented it, chances are it was a Westerner.

Blah blah blah... yada yada yada... Muslims were uncivilized... they were barbarians. Yes, they were barbarians. Damn them for being such stupid scientists, damn them for reinventing economic proofs, damn them for institutionalizing modern hispotals, damn them for being so uncivilized. They're also so technologically incompetent... And who would've thought those simple Jew-hating Muslims would have been so intolerant? Those conservative barbarians really ought to know better...

Quote: :lol:

The only person you're kidding is yourself.

Quote: Well thats not certain, based on simple derivative fact, and the fact that the one linking factor of these people is religion, it would be very difficult for you to prove such a statement.

Done.

Quote: All of the things you state were done for reasons other than religion, and always with provocation.

I agree that they were done in the name of religion, but not because of it. However, they weren't done in provocation.

Quote: Well yes, everyone is human, what else would they be? Even your prophet was human

I meant HUMANE. He was humane.

Quote: Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

Twisted interpretation. Islam forbids rape, forbids plunder and forbids loot.

Quote: Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

Are you reading these verses properly? It's clear that these boys are servants, not sexual slaves.

If anything, it's you who is perverting those verses.

Quote: As mentioned in my previous article, famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality. As an example I am including a poem in 'Perfumed Garden' by Abu Nuwas:

That's just a poem. It's not Islamic literature.

And another thing: sodomy is forbidden in Islam.

Quote: Need I say anything more after this colorful rendition by Abu Nuwas?

Yes: congratulations on copy-pasting the poem from a much-scorned unIslamic poet who has no link with Islam whatsoever, considering that his style of poetry is not only UNISLAMIC, but PRE-ISLAMIC.

Sorry, you ain't convincing me.

Quote: Nations where everyone has a place do not last long, and I'm pretty sure countries in the ME are generally no nice places for people other than arab/muslim to live.

On the contrary: there are many foreigners who live peacefully here in the ME. Also, you should be more appreciative of multiculturalism: it destroys all those feelings of hate and discomfort and friction between people. Ain't it grand?

Quote: I have no need to read the Koran, only to read the actions of its followers, a lifetime of action is worth more than some empty rhetoric from the Koran , believe me.

Why the hell should I believe you?

So, in short, you're judging Muslims on their actions, not their beliefs, even though Islam is totally against what these fanatical Muslims do, and that these fanatics are indeed an outspoken minority. Most cases, these fanatics don't even practice Islam to the extent that they can be labelled as "religious" extremists.

I tell you something: if anything, it's FASCISM that is a threat to society.

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Actually, now looking at this, I really have to qualify what I stated earlier about the compatability of Islam and the West: the political and communal form of Islam is what is not compatible with the West. Islam as a personal route to salvation is indeed compatible with the West.

You mean political Islam as it is today? Perhaps...

Quote: Now that the "true" Europe is tired of going after the Jews, it seems that it is merely trying to go after the Muslims.

Haven't you heard, ToonArmy? Muslims are the new Jews of Europe.

[programmusic]

yeah, they've certainly been having routine massacres of muslim communities. And also rounded up and gassed 2/3rd of them.

[Saracen]

programmusic wrote: yeah, they've certainly been having routine massacres of muslim communities. And also rounded up and gassed 2/3rd of them.

You're misquoting me: I mentioned that the mentality exhibited by much of Europe's rightwing is the same line of thinking that lead to the Holocaust.

Jews were accused of being Communists, enemies of Christ, "untermenschen" (look it up), etc. Now, Muslims are being accused along the same lines.