Political Crossfire Forums

[MoscowMatt]

These two people's accounts of life as a Muslim are taken from BBC news on-line



NAGINA SHAH
I was born into a strict Pakistani Muslim background but, when I was 19, I decided to break away from my family.


My parents chose a husband for me - I was engaged at 14 and forced into marriage at 17

I have three brothers and three sisters, and am the youngest in the family. I'm the only one born in England, in 1972, a few years after my parents had emigrated from Pakistan.

My upbringing was very strict, even by Asian community standards. My family were Sunnis [the majority branch of Islam] and our faith and religion were largely influenced by - and intertwined with - our culture.

But it was backward, strict and suffocating. I was not allowed to go out on my own or even travel on buses.

I went to an all-girls school, although my father believed girls should not really be educated. Instead, all attention was focused on my brothers, who were expected to become doctors or lawyers.

My father preached one thing but did something else in practice. He said we needed to be pure and pious but was himself quite volatile. In contrast, my mother would never say boo to a goose.

The double standards really struck me. I always felt suppressed and suffocated by my father and brothers, who ran the household.

I was never able to accept or understand why my brothers were treated better than me. They were allowed to go out, mix with women, drive, go to college, have an opinion. I was allowed to do none of these things.

Turning point

My parents chose a husband for me. I was engaged to him at 14 and forced into marriage at 17. when I was 19, I had had enough and I decided to run away from home. On 8 August 1991, I packed my bags and went.

I have since put myself through college and university and now consider myself as an independent career woman.

At the time, I left with hardly anything. And having lived in a sheltered, reclusive environment, I suddenly had to face up to real life for the first time.

I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me

I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university.

When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess.

There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.

Torn identity

I went through the most enormous life-changing experience. I must have been numb and in shock for about two years.

I became a totally different person, and found I was also quite spiritual and could relate to many religions at different levels.


Since leaving home I have not been in touch with my family. I would not be able to live my life the way I choose if my family have anything to do with it. I do not blame my parents for not seeing my point of view. They both come from a very different culture.

There is a cultural clash between my parents' generation and mine. The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.

I believe my parents were so strict because they did not want to lose their identity, their Pakistani roots. But by doing this they did not allow me my own identity.

The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world.

I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs.

I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.



AFTAB MALIK
It was not until university that I began to think about what it meant to be a Muslim. Until then, life was pretty much plain sailing. I prayed and would fast in the month of Ramadan, but only half-heartedly.


Rather than architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life

Experiences at the mosque taught me that Islam was something that came from the sub-continent: backward and ritualistic.

But my perception and understanding of Islam changed as I soon discovered that Islam had an intellectual and spiritual tradition.

Little did I know that I'd become part of an increasing number of Muslims in the West who, in the past decade or so, have been seeking the revivification of an authentic, traditional wisdom; one that rises above sectarian divisions and discredits the angry rhetoric of the orphans of modernity.

Rather than being architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Some Muslims today, in their rhetoric or by their actions, portray a faith whose adherents want a religion to die for, as opposed to live for. These Muslims are replacing the legacy of that civilization with anger and hatred.

Confusion rife

Unfortunately, despite the huge upsurge of interest in Islam, there remains much confusion as to what it's really about.

A twisted and mutated offspring is wreaking havoc in the name of Islam

While "the war on terrorism" has shifted relations between Islam and the West in tectonic proportions, the responses by Muslims have been different.

Some argue that 9/11 signalled the ultimate showdown between Islam and the West; others reactively repeat the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace". And another segment of the community has decided it is time for some serious and critical reflection.

These messages have been mixed and confuse many people, who cannot understand why so many Muslims are angry.

Despite the immense suffering in the Muslim world, nothing can justify the heinous actions that result in the spilling of innocent blood.

Devoid of the necessary skills and tools to decipher the religious texts, minions of chaos have side-stepped over 1,000 years of scholasticism and Koranic exegesis [critical explanation of a text] to create their own deluded Sharia - a new law couched in Islamic terminology established solely to be the antithesis of the West.

Under this law, there is only hatred and rejection. Under this law, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are its victims.

Classical traditions

For the integrity of Islam, these individuals and their organisations need to be seen as they are: marginal and heretical.


Traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today

So far are they from classical notions of ethics and morality, manifestations of this extreme reading of Islam are more in line with "Islamicised" Marxist-Leninist notions of revolution and anti-imperialist struggle than with anything derived from the Koran and the Sunna through a classical legal tradition.

Muslim reformers who dismantled and undermined the Islamic tradition with its legal philosophy, an apparatus of law and system of spirituality during the 19th and 20th Centuries, paved the way for a twisted and mutated offspring that is wreaking havoc on the Earth in the name of Islam.

So what is traditional Islam? It really means orthodoxy, consisting of the four Sunni legal schools of thought (madhahibs), two schools of doctrine (aqida) and the science of ihsan (excellence or perfection), otherwise known as tasawwuf.

Traditional Islam teaches how to view tribulation and oppression through prophetic eyes and not how to contribute to it.

By restoring the equilibrium between the heart and soul, the intellect and creation, traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today and, once again, marginalise and eject extremism from the Muslim discourse.


So what does everybody think?

I think Islam needs to modernise especially in it's attitudes towards women if it is ever to be truely compatible with the West.

[Plato & Socrates]

The first example you could replace Muslim woman for Hindu, and it would still be applicable. Moscow I am first to acknowledge that Islam needs to reform. Has a born and raised atheist, I believe that 99% of religions are f**ked to begin with. The more conservative strains of Islam and their treatment of women in the modern world, is nothing short of repressive and backwards in my own opinion.

But lets hold on a minute here. I grew up in Stamford Hill from 1980, which is hardcore Orthodox Jewry. My partner(since 1990) is a mitzvah (unorthadox) as are my kids. Are you trying to palm off to me, that the repression of women is only a Islamic tradition? What role do Jewish Orthodox women play in there communities? Without being offensive, I could argue that they are no more than breeding chambers to bear children. Has for the role in the Synagogue? Please don't even make me laugh at that one. As a Brit I could argue at the practice of married women having to cut off there hair, as utterly repressive. To me that is just has sad as the Burka or the Hijab. I am sure a counter arguement could be made for that practice to be seen as tradition.

Lets debate about Orthodox Jewery assimilation in there local community. :lol: That's the biggest joke going. Its has bad in Stamford Hill, as the Muslims in Bradford. There are many Jews whos grasp of English is non-esistant, who have lived here for most of there lives. Wheres the public outrage at that group? There is absolutely none. The only contact and interaction they make in general, is only if it is commerce based, and even then generally as a last resort, if they cant find a Jewish provider, of the service they need.
Would you want to talk about Orthodox women, who would like to date outside of the orthodoxy circle? If it happens, there is absolutely NO coming back in, and you know what I mean. Orthodox Jewish women, are just slightly better off in my opinion. Stop bashing other religions without looking at your own first.

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: The first example you could replace Muslim woman for Hindu, and it would still be applicable. Moscow I am first to acknowledge that Islam needs to reform. Has a born and raised atheist, I believe that 99% of religions are f**ked to begin with. The more conservative strains of Islam and their treatment of women in the modern world, is nothing short of repressive and backwards in my own opinion.

But lets hold on a minute here. I grew up in Stamford Hill from 1980, which is hardcore Orthodox Jewry. My partner(since 1990) is a mitzvah (unorthadox) as are my kids. Are you trying to palm off to me, that the repression of women is only a Islamic tradition? What role do Jewish Orthodox women play in there communities? Without being offensive, I could argue that they are no more than breeding chambers to bear children. Has for the role in the Synagogue? Please don't even make me laugh at that one. As a Brit I could argue at the practice of married women having to cut off there hair, as utterly repressive. To me that is just has sad as the Burka or the Hijab. I am sure a counter arguement could be made for that practice to be seen as tradition.

Lets debate about Orthodox Jewery assimilation in there local community. :lol: That's the biggest joke going. Its has bad in Stamford Hill, as the Muslims in Bradford. There are many Jews whos grasp of English is non-esistant, who have lived here for most of there lives. Wheres the public outrage at that group? There is absolutely none. The only contact and interaction they make in general, is only if it is commerce based, and even then generally as a last resort, if they cant find a Jewish provider, of the service they need.
Would you want to talk about Orthodox women, who would like to date outside of the orthodoxy circle? If it happens, there is absolutely NO coming back in, and you know what I mean. Orthodox Jewish women, are just slightly better off in my opinion. Stop bashing other religions without looking at your own first.

Well if you want to debate about Orthodox Jewery then by all means start a thread!! This ones asking is Islam compatible with the West?!! The opinions of the two people I've quoted are theirs not mine, and from BBC news.

Further more the comment stop bashing other religions without looking at your own first is rather amusing as I do not follow any religion!!!

Anyone will tell you that women are opressed under Islam, but as I say if you want to draw attention to the treatment of women in other religions then by all means start a thread!

[Plato & Socrates]

MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: The first example you could replace Muslim woman for Hindu, and it would still be applicable. Moscow I am first to acknowledge that Islam needs to reform. Has a born and raised atheist, I believe that 99% of religions are f**ked to begin with. The more conservative strains of Islam and their treatment of women in the modern world, is nothing short of repressive and backwards in my own opinion.

But lets hold on a minute here. I grew up in Stamford Hill from 1980, which is hardcore Orthodox Jewry. My partner(since 1990) is a mitzvah (unorthadox) as are my kids. Are you trying to palm off to me, that the repression of women is only a Islamic tradition? What role do Jewish Orthodox women play in there communities? Without being offensive, I could argue that they are no more than breeding chambers to bear children. Has for the role in the Synagogue? Please don't even make me laugh at that one. As a Brit I could argue at the practice of married women having to cut off there hair, as utterly repressive. To me that is just has sad as the Burka or the Hijab. I am sure a counter arguement could be made for that practice to be seen as tradition.

Lets debate about Orthodox Jewery assimilation in there local community. :lol: That's the biggest joke going. Its has bad in Stamford Hill, as the Muslims in Bradford. There are many Jews whos grasp of English is non-esistant, who have lived here for most of there lives. Wheres the public outrage at that group? There is absolutely none. The only contact and interaction they make in general, is only if it is commerce based, and even then generally as a last resort, if they cant find a Jewish provider, of the service they need.
Would you want to talk about Orthodox women, who would like to date outside of the orthodoxy circle? If it happens, there is absolutely NO coming back in, and you know what I mean. Orthodox Jewish women, are just slightly better off in my opinion. Stop bashing other religions without looking at your own first.

Well if you want to debate about Orthodox Jewery then by all means start a thread!! This ones asking is Islam compatible with the West?!! The opinions of the two people I've quoted are theirs not mine, and from BBC news.

Further more the comment stop bashing other religions without looking at your own first is rather amusing as I do not follow any religion!!!

Anyone will tell you that women are opressed under Islam, but as I say if you want to draw attention to the treatment of women in other religions then by all means start a thread!

Pre-war on terror, the west did'nt really have a problem with Islam. I agree that Islam in some forms is repressive, but it must be seen in its context. What are the circumstances which has allowed the more conservative and orthodox strains of Islam to thrive? What can we do to help moderate progressive Islam to thrive? Islam is getting a bad name and in some instances rightly so. Do you know about Honor killings? Islam gets a bad name for this practice, buts its just as prevalent in the Hindu community, but largely ignored by the press.

[the sane voice]

then explain this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0BiwanZgPM

[Plato & Socrates]

the sane voice wrote: then explain this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0BiwanZgPM

Hatred towards Jewish people, held by Arabs spilling hate filled bile? Is that what your putting forward has incompatibility in the west? Wow Wee! I can find the equivalent passage from the BNP or by members of Combat 18, and their British. Are there fascist views also incompatible with the west, or are these traits of the west?

The voice of a hate filled Imam? :shock: Well that's new. These idiots spill hate hate towards me to, calling for the death of infidels like me. But that is'nt Islam has a whole. Just has you cant take every white male with there heads shaven and members of the BNP, as a standard for British attitudes. Where is your perspective boy?
If you can shown me any type of evidence and pattern, of Islamic scholars/Imams, preaching this type of bile and hate pre 1945, just one tenth of how much I see today. Then I'll join you and agree that Islam is incompatible, and for f**k sake, please don't source the Jewish virtual library.

But I'll bet you, you cant do that, or prove that to be the case. This view or Islam not being compatible with the west, is unintellectual propaganda. Radical Islam is incompatible, I might even concede Wahhabism is incompatible. The same could be argued about puritanical Christianity in its time, whats your historical view on those uncompromising religious fundamentalist bigots?

[Rankor and Pissing]

Plato & Socrates wrote: The more conservative strains of Islam and their treatment of women in the modern world, is nothing short of repressive and backwards in my own opinion. Wow... I mean, wow. See I look at Southern Baptists and say... yep, they're repressive and backwards. Definately the Poligamists in Utah... not only backwards but "cultish" and very repressive to their women. Conservative strains of Islam? They're not repressive and backwards... they're out and out sadists. The worse of those conservative strains are bald faced murderers.

[Plato & Socrates]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: The more conservative strains of Islam and their treatment of women in the modern world, is nothing short of repressive and backwards in my own opinion. Wow... I mean, wow. See I look at Southern Baptists and say... yep, they're repressive and backwards. Definately the Poligamists in Utah... not only backwards but "cultish" and very repressive to their women. Conservative strains of Islam? They're not repressive and backwards... they're out and out sadists. The worse of those conservative strains are bald faced murderers.

Yeah i'll agree with your assessment. I cant put forward a case to defend those guys, neither would I want to.

[XxMorningStarxX]

MoscowMatt wrote: These two people's accounts of life as a Muslim are taken from BBC news on-line



NAGINA SHAH
I was born into a strict Pakistani Muslim background but, when I was 19, I decided to break away from my family.


My parents chose a husband for me - I was engaged at 14 and forced into marriage at 17

I have three brothers and three sisters, and am the youngest in the family. I'm the only one born in England, in 1972, a few years after my parents had emigrated from Pakistan.

My upbringing was very strict, even by Asian community standards. My family were Sunnis [the majority branch of Islam] and our faith and religion were largely influenced by - and intertwined with - our culture.

But it was backward, strict and suffocating. I was not allowed to go out on my own or even travel on buses.

I went to an all-girls school, although my father believed girls should not really be educated. Instead, all attention was focused on my brothers, who were expected to become doctors or lawyers.

My father preached one thing but did something else in practice. He said we needed to be pure and pious but was himself quite volatile. In contrast, my mother would never say boo to a goose.

The double standards really struck me. I always felt suppressed and suffocated by my father and brothers, who ran the household.

I was never able to accept or understand why my brothers were treated better than me. They were allowed to go out, mix with women, drive, go to college, have an opinion. I was allowed to do none of these things.

Turning point

My parents chose a husband for me. I was engaged to him at 14 and forced into marriage at 17. when I was 19, I had had enough and I decided to run away from home. On 8 August 1991, I packed my bags and went.

I have since put myself through college and university and now consider myself as an independent career woman.

At the time, I left with hardly anything. And having lived in a sheltered, reclusive environment, I suddenly had to face up to real life for the first time.

I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me

I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university.

When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess.

There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.

Torn identity

I went through the most enormous life-changing experience. I must have been numb and in shock for about two years.

I became a totally different person, and found I was also quite spiritual and could relate to many religions at different levels.


Since leaving home I have not been in touch with my family. I would not be able to live my life the way I choose if my family have anything to do with it. I do not blame my parents for not seeing my point of view. They both come from a very different culture.

There is a cultural clash between my parents' generation and mine. The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.

I believe my parents were so strict because they did not want to lose their identity, their Pakistani roots. But by doing this they did not allow me my own identity.

The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world.

I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs.

I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.



AFTAB MALIK
It was not until university that I began to think about what it meant to be a Muslim. Until then, life was pretty much plain sailing. I prayed and would fast in the month of Ramadan, but only half-heartedly.


Rather than architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life

Experiences at the mosque taught me that Islam was something that came from the sub-continent: backward and ritualistic.

But my perception and understanding of Islam changed as I soon discovered that Islam had an intellectual and spiritual tradition.

Little did I know that I'd become part of an increasing number of Muslims in the West who, in the past decade or so, have been seeking the revivification of an authentic, traditional wisdom; one that rises above sectarian divisions and discredits the angry rhetoric of the orphans of modernity.

Rather than being architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Some Muslims today, in their rhetoric or by their actions, portray a faith whose adherents want a religion to die for, as opposed to live for. These Muslims are replacing the legacy of that civilization with anger and hatred.

Confusion rife

Unfortunately, despite the huge upsurge of interest in Islam, there remains much confusion as to what it's really about.

A twisted and mutated offspring is wreaking havoc in the name of Islam

While "the war on terrorism" has shifted relations between Islam and the West in tectonic proportions, the responses by Muslims have been different.

Some argue that 9/11 signalled the ultimate showdown between Islam and the West; others reactively repeat the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace". And another segment of the community has decided it is time for some serious and critical reflection.

These messages have been mixed and confuse many people, who cannot understand why so many Muslims are angry.

Despite the immense suffering in the Muslim world, nothing can justify the heinous actions that result in the spilling of innocent blood.

Devoid of the necessary skills and tools to decipher the religious texts, minions of chaos have side-stepped over 1,000 years of scholasticism and Koranic exegesis [critical explanation of a text] to create their own deluded Sharia - a new law couched in Islamic terminology established solely to be the antithesis of the West.

Under this law, there is only hatred and rejection. Under this law, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are its victims.

Classical traditions

For the integrity of Islam, these individuals and their organisations need to be seen as they are: marginal and heretical.


Traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today

So far are they from classical notions of ethics and morality, manifestations of this extreme reading of Islam are more in line with "Islamicised" Marxist-Leninist notions of revolution and anti-imperialist struggle than with anything derived from the Koran and the Sunna through a classical legal tradition.

Muslim reformers who dismantled and undermined the Islamic tradition with its legal philosophy, an apparatus of law and system of spirituality during the 19th and 20th Centuries, paved the way for a twisted and mutated offspring that is wreaking havoc on the Earth in the name of Islam.

So what is traditional Islam? It really means orthodoxy, consisting of the four Sunni legal schools of thought (madhahibs), two schools of doctrine (aqida) and the science of ihsan (excellence or perfection), otherwise known as tasawwuf.

Traditional Islam teaches how to view tribulation and oppression through prophetic eyes and not how to contribute to it.

By restoring the equilibrium between the heart and soul, the intellect and creation, traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today and, once again, marginalise and eject extremism from the Muslim discourse.


So what does everybody think?

I think Islam needs to modernise especially in it's attitudes towards women if it is ever to be truely compatible with the West.

Never knew u were female(MOscow Matt??)

Well it really depends on how fundamentalist you're going to be. Obviously we all have friends who are "muslim" who never go to worship and who are on a diet of hamburgers and french fries.

All Abrahamic religions, when taken literally, can be viewed as "socially backward" and yes i agree with you fundamentalists must modernize because if they dont they will negatively affect people around them.

For instance, the Christian Bible essentially attributes woman's pain in childbirth to the fact that Eve was gulled into eating the apple. I have met Christians to date who still believe this. Woman in the BIble and in the Koran are also clearly placed in a subordinate position to men, because this is the way it is, and anything else is contra natura.

Really, the answer is a No. If you are the "ideal" follower of an Abrahamic faith as taught in the holy books, the west will not be a compatible place for assimilation, but of course this doesn't mean you can't LIVE there, Jesus hung out with sinners you know.

The west is viewed by many Muslims, including christians and muslims living IN the west as the New Babylon where sin is rife.

The United States, of course, is the w**** of Babylon = P.

[XxMorningStarxX]

OH and plus, i feel you on everything u said. Yeah religions do preach exclusivity, and thats not even half of it! Single denominations claim the rightful place (every church i have seen has claimed themselves as the most faithful to Christianity) DIvisions in Christiandom are much more prolific than divisions in Islam, and this can be attribute dto the fact that culture in the Middle east is still in a very traditional medium, while Christiandom has been steeped in western "freedom."

Thats not even counting the fact that Christians think muslims are going to hell, and muslims think Christians are going to hell. Its ridiculous.

[emerald]

my own experience as a muslim woman in the west, is a bit of both those stories you mention.

my father is very culturally bound, and relatively strict religiously. and although i rebelled....a lot....in my teens against islam, agaisnt all religions basically, and became somewhat of an agnostic, because my father restricted us, me , my sister and my brothers...there wasnt a rule for them and a different rule for us....we were all the same, and my dad made sure of it. he wanted us to do well in school, always praising us when we did well academically, always making us stand up for ourselves, being strong and having our own opinion on the world....although when it differed too much to his he wouldnt be prepared to listen too long :lol: and he made some major mistakes especially with regards to me, but when i look back on it now, i can understand why he did, i can see where he's coming from, i actually appreciate my cultural background now, whereas in my teens i was trying to move away from it, and instead of just one cultural background i have two, but i feel more comfortable with the Arabic culture, i appreciate it more, and instead of brushing off islam completely i am able to understand it, and formulate my own ideas and opinions on it, from a moderate perspective.

[the truth]

XxMorningStarxX wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: These two people's accounts of life as a Muslim are taken from BBC news on-line



NAGINA SHAH
I was born into a strict Pakistani Muslim background but, when I was 19, I decided to break away from my family.


My parents chose a husband for me - I was engaged at 14 and forced into marriage at 17

I have three brothers and three sisters, and am the youngest in the family. I'm the only one born in England, in 1972, a few years after my parents had emigrated from Pakistan.

My upbringing was very strict, even by Asian community standards. My family were Sunnis [the majority branch of Islam] and our faith and religion were largely influenced by - and intertwined with - our culture.

But it was backward, strict and suffocating. I was not allowed to go out on my own or even travel on buses.

I went to an all-girls school, although my father believed girls should not really be educated. Instead, all attention was focused on my brothers, who were expected to become doctors or lawyers.

My father preached one thing but did something else in practice. He said we needed to be pure and pious but was himself quite volatile. In contrast, my mother would never say boo to a goose.

The double standards really struck me. I always felt suppressed and suffocated by my father and brothers, who ran the household.

I was never able to accept or understand why my brothers were treated better than me. They were allowed to go out, mix with women, drive, go to college, have an opinion. I was allowed to do none of these things.

Turning point

My parents chose a husband for me. I was engaged to him at 14 and forced into marriage at 17. when I was 19, I had had enough and I decided to run away from home. On 8 August 1991, I packed my bags and went.

I have since put myself through college and university and now consider myself as an independent career woman.

At the time, I left with hardly anything. And having lived in a sheltered, reclusive environment, I suddenly had to face up to real life for the first time.

I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me

I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university.

When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess.

There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.

Torn identity

I went through the most enormous life-changing experience. I must have been numb and in shock for about two years.

I became a totally different person, and found I was also quite spiritual and could relate to many religions at different levels.


Since leaving home I have not been in touch with my family. I would not be able to live my life the way I choose if my family have anything to do with it. I do not blame my parents for not seeing my point of view. They both come from a very different culture.

There is a cultural clash between my parents' generation and mine. The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.

I believe my parents were so strict because they did not want to lose their identity, their Pakistani roots. But by doing this they did not allow me my own identity.

The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world.

I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs.

I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.



AFTAB MALIK
It was not until university that I began to think about what it meant to be a Muslim. Until then, life was pretty much plain sailing. I prayed and would fast in the month of Ramadan, but only half-heartedly.


Rather than architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life

Experiences at the mosque taught me that Islam was something that came from the sub-continent: backward and ritualistic.

But my perception and understanding of Islam changed as I soon discovered that Islam had an intellectual and spiritual tradition.

Little did I know that I'd become part of an increasing number of Muslims in the West who, in the past decade or so, have been seeking the revivification of an authentic, traditional wisdom; one that rises above sectarian divisions and discredits the angry rhetoric of the orphans of modernity.

Rather than being architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Some Muslims today, in their rhetoric or by their actions, portray a faith whose adherents want a religion to die for, as opposed to live for. These Muslims are replacing the legacy of that civilization with anger and hatred.

Confusion rife

Unfortunately, despite the huge upsurge of interest in Islam, there remains much confusion as to what it's really about.

A twisted and mutated offspring is wreaking havoc in the name of Islam

While "the war on terrorism" has shifted relations between Islam and the West in tectonic proportions, the responses by Muslims have been different.

Some argue that 9/11 signalled the ultimate showdown between Islam and the West; others reactively repeat the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace". And another segment of the community has decided it is time for some serious and critical reflection.

These messages have been mixed and confuse many people, who cannot understand why so many Muslims are angry.

Despite the immense suffering in the Muslim world, nothing can justify the heinous actions that result in the spilling of innocent blood.

Devoid of the necessary skills and tools to decipher the religious texts, minions of chaos have side-stepped over 1,000 years of scholasticism and Koranic exegesis [critical explanation of a text] to create their own deluded Sharia - a new law couched in Islamic terminology established solely to be the antithesis of the West.

Under this law, there is only hatred and rejection. Under this law, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are its victims.

Classical traditions

For the integrity of Islam, these individuals and their organisations need to be seen as they are: marginal and heretical.


Traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today

So far are they from classical notions of ethics and morality, manifestations of this extreme reading of Islam are more in line with "Islamicised" Marxist-Leninist notions of revolution and anti-imperialist struggle than with anything derived from the Koran and the Sunna through a classical legal tradition.

Muslim reformers who dismantled and undermined the Islamic tradition with its legal philosophy, an apparatus of law and system of spirituality during the 19th and 20th Centuries, paved the way for a twisted and mutated offspring that is wreaking havoc on the Earth in the name of Islam.

So what is traditional Islam? It really means orthodoxy, consisting of the four Sunni legal schools of thought (madhahibs), two schools of doctrine (aqida) and the science of ihsan (excellence or perfection), otherwise known as tasawwuf.

Traditional Islam teaches how to view tribulation and oppression through prophetic eyes and not how to contribute to it.

By restoring the equilibrium between the heart and soul, the intellect and creation, traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today and, once again, marginalise and eject extremism from the Muslim discourse.


So what does everybody think?

I think Islam needs to modernise especially in it's attitudes towards women if it is ever to be truely compatible with the West.

Never knew u were female(MOscow Matt??)

Well it really depends on how fundamentalist you're going to be. Obviously we all have friends who are "muslim" who never go to worship and who are on a diet of hamburgers and french fries.

All Abrahamic religions, when taken literally, can be viewed as "socially backward" and yes i agree with you fundamentalists must modernize because if they dont they will negatively affect people around them.

For instance, the Christian Bible essentially attributes woman's pain in childbirth to the fact that Eve was gulled into eating the apple. I have met Christians to date who still believe this. Woman in the BIble and in the Koran are also clearly placed in a subordinate position to men, because this is the way it is, and anything else is contra natura.

Really, the answer is a No. If you are the "ideal" follower of an Abrahamic faith as taught in the holy books, the west will not be a compatible place for assimilation, but of course this doesn't mean you can't LIVE there, Jesus hung out with sinners you know.

The west is viewed by many Muslims, including christians and muslims living IN the west as the New Babylon where sin is rife.

The United States, of course, is the w**** of Babylon = P.

I think its hard to look at 30,000 years of human evolution and behavior and say our "modern thinking" makes past culture 100% wrong. I think men do have a place at the head of the household. You should respect and love women period, but I do believe men and women should have some kind of roles in society. I think a man should provide for his wife and kids, not the other way around. I don't mind women in profession, but how many people on this earth would vote for a female candidate? 10-15%. Maybe I'm socialy backwards, but I think there is a certain order to human nature that has trickled down through human behavior.

[XxMorningStarxX]

the truth wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: These two people's accounts of life as a Muslim are taken from BBC news on-line



NAGINA SHAH
I was born into a strict Pakistani Muslim background but, when I was 19, I decided to break away from my family.


My parents chose a husband for me - I was engaged at 14 and forced into marriage at 17

I have three brothers and three sisters, and am the youngest in the family. I'm the only one born in England, in 1972, a few years after my parents had emigrated from Pakistan.

My upbringing was very strict, even by Asian community standards. My family were Sunnis [the majority branch of Islam] and our faith and religion were largely influenced by - and intertwined with - our culture.

But it was backward, strict and suffocating. I was not allowed to go out on my own or even travel on buses.

I went to an all-girls school, although my father believed girls should not really be educated. Instead, all attention was focused on my brothers, who were expected to become doctors or lawyers.

My father preached one thing but did something else in practice. He said we needed to be pure and pious but was himself quite volatile. In contrast, my mother would never say boo to a goose.

The double standards really struck me. I always felt suppressed and suffocated by my father and brothers, who ran the household.

I was never able to accept or understand why my brothers were treated better than me. They were allowed to go out, mix with women, drive, go to college, have an opinion. I was allowed to do none of these things.

Turning point

My parents chose a husband for me. I was engaged to him at 14 and forced into marriage at 17. when I was 19, I had had enough and I decided to run away from home. On 8 August 1991, I packed my bags and went.

I have since put myself through college and university and now consider myself as an independent career woman.

At the time, I left with hardly anything. And having lived in a sheltered, reclusive environment, I suddenly had to face up to real life for the first time.

I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me

I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university.

When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess.

There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.

Torn identity

I went through the most enormous life-changing experience. I must have been numb and in shock for about two years.

I became a totally different person, and found I was also quite spiritual and could relate to many religions at different levels.


Since leaving home I have not been in touch with my family. I would not be able to live my life the way I choose if my family have anything to do with it. I do not blame my parents for not seeing my point of view. They both come from a very different culture.

There is a cultural clash between my parents' generation and mine. The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.

I believe my parents were so strict because they did not want to lose their identity, their Pakistani roots. But by doing this they did not allow me my own identity.

The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world.

I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs.

I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.



AFTAB MALIK
It was not until university that I began to think about what it meant to be a Muslim. Until then, life was pretty much plain sailing. I prayed and would fast in the month of Ramadan, but only half-heartedly.


Rather than architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life

Experiences at the mosque taught me that Islam was something that came from the sub-continent: backward and ritualistic.

But my perception and understanding of Islam changed as I soon discovered that Islam had an intellectual and spiritual tradition.

Little did I know that I'd become part of an increasing number of Muslims in the West who, in the past decade or so, have been seeking the revivification of an authentic, traditional wisdom; one that rises above sectarian divisions and discredits the angry rhetoric of the orphans of modernity.

Rather than being architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Some Muslims today, in their rhetoric or by their actions, portray a faith whose adherents want a religion to die for, as opposed to live for. These Muslims are replacing the legacy of that civilization with anger and hatred.

Confusion rife

Unfortunately, despite the huge upsurge of interest in Islam, there remains much confusion as to what it's really about.

A twisted and mutated offspring is wreaking havoc in the name of Islam

While "the war on terrorism" has shifted relations between Islam and the West in tectonic proportions, the responses by Muslims have been different.

Some argue that 9/11 signalled the ultimate showdown between Islam and the West; others reactively repeat the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace". And another segment of the community has decided it is time for some serious and critical reflection.

These messages have been mixed and confuse many people, who cannot understand why so many Muslims are angry.

Despite the immense suffering in the Muslim world, nothing can justify the heinous actions that result in the spilling of innocent blood.

Devoid of the necessary skills and tools to decipher the religious texts, minions of chaos have side-stepped over 1,000 years of scholasticism and Koranic exegesis [critical explanation of a text] to create their own deluded Sharia - a new law couched in Islamic terminology established solely to be the antithesis of the West.

Under this law, there is only hatred and rejection. Under this law, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are its victims.

Classical traditions

For the integrity of Islam, these individuals and their organisations need to be seen as they are: marginal and heretical.


Traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today

So far are they from classical notions of ethics and morality, manifestations of this extreme reading of Islam are more in line with "Islamicised" Marxist-Leninist notions of revolution and anti-imperialist struggle than with anything derived from the Koran and the Sunna through a classical legal tradition.

Muslim reformers who dismantled and undermined the Islamic tradition with its legal philosophy, an apparatus of law and system of spirituality during the 19th and 20th Centuries, paved the way for a twisted and mutated offspring that is wreaking havoc on the Earth in the name of Islam.

So what is traditional Islam? It really means orthodoxy, consisting of the four Sunni legal schools of thought (madhahibs), two schools of doctrine (aqida) and the science of ihsan (excellence or perfection), otherwise known as tasawwuf.

Traditional Islam teaches how to view tribulation and oppression through prophetic eyes and not how to contribute to it.

By restoring the equilibrium between the heart and soul, the intellect and creation, traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today and, once again, marginalise and eject extremism from the Muslim discourse.


So what does everybody think?

I think Islam needs to modernise especially in it's attitudes towards women if it is ever to be truely compatible with the West.

Never knew u were female(MOscow Matt??)

Well it really depends on how fundamentalist you're going to be. Obviously we all have friends who are "muslim" who never go to worship and who are on a diet of hamburgers and french fries.

All Abrahamic religions, when taken literally, can be viewed as "socially backward" and yes i agree with you fundamentalists must modernize because if they dont they will negatively affect people around them.

For instance, the Christian Bible essentially attributes woman's pain in childbirth to the fact that Eve was gulled into eating the apple. I have met Christians to date who still believe this. Woman in the BIble and in the Koran are also clearly placed in a subordinate position to men, because this is the way it is, and anything else is contra natura.

Really, the answer is a No. If you are the "ideal" follower of an Abrahamic faith as taught in the holy books, the west will not be a compatible place for assimilation, but of course this doesn't mean you can't LIVE there, Jesus hung out with sinners you know.

The west is viewed by many Muslims, including christians and muslims living IN the west as the New Babylon where sin is rife.

The United States, of course, is the w**** of Babylon = P.

I think its hard to look at 30,000 years of human evolution and behavior and say our "modern thinking" makes past culture 100% wrong. I think men do have a place at the head of the household. You should respect and love women period, but I do believe men and women should have some kind of roles in society. I think a man should provide for his wife and kids, not the other way around. I don't mind women in profession, but how many people on this earth would vote for a female candidate? 10-15%. Maybe I'm socialy backwards, but I think there is a certain order to human nature that has trickled down through human behavior.

Slavery has existed since forever worldwide up until the late 19th century.

Are you going to try to justify slavery just becuse it was a long standing tradition?

Might've been an "extreme" example, but yes I know where you're coming from, and I Know there are obviously limits to the gender roles, like a man can obviously not give birth to a child, and thus the female is enburdened with nurturing child because the child is attached to whoever it sees first / breastfeeds it. When i was a baby even when my dad wanted to take care of me alone or carry me around, i refused.

[the truth]

XxMorningStarxX wrote: the truth wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: These two people's accounts of life as a Muslim are taken from BBC news on-line



NAGINA SHAH
I was born into a strict Pakistani Muslim background but, when I was 19, I decided to break away from my family.


My parents chose a husband for me - I was engaged at 14 and forced into marriage at 17

I have three brothers and three sisters, and am the youngest in the family. I'm the only one born in England, in 1972, a few years after my parents had emigrated from Pakistan.

My upbringing was very strict, even by Asian community standards. My family were Sunnis [the majority branch of Islam] and our faith and religion were largely influenced by - and intertwined with - our culture.

But it was backward, strict and suffocating. I was not allowed to go out on my own or even travel on buses.

I went to an all-girls school, although my father believed girls should not really be educated. Instead, all attention was focused on my brothers, who were expected to become doctors or lawyers.

My father preached one thing but did something else in practice. He said we needed to be pure and pious but was himself quite volatile. In contrast, my mother would never say boo to a goose.

The double standards really struck me. I always felt suppressed and suffocated by my father and brothers, who ran the household.

I was never able to accept or understand why my brothers were treated better than me. They were allowed to go out, mix with women, drive, go to college, have an opinion. I was allowed to do none of these things.

Turning point

My parents chose a husband for me. I was engaged to him at 14 and forced into marriage at 17. when I was 19, I had had enough and I decided to run away from home. On 8 August 1991, I packed my bags and went.

I have since put myself through college and university and now consider myself as an independent career woman.

At the time, I left with hardly anything. And having lived in a sheltered, reclusive environment, I suddenly had to face up to real life for the first time.

I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me

I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university.

When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess.

There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.

Torn identity

I went through the most enormous life-changing experience. I must have been numb and in shock for about two years.

I became a totally different person, and found I was also quite spiritual and could relate to many religions at different levels.


Since leaving home I have not been in touch with my family. I would not be able to live my life the way I choose if my family have anything to do with it. I do not blame my parents for not seeing my point of view. They both come from a very different culture.

There is a cultural clash between my parents' generation and mine. The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.

I believe my parents were so strict because they did not want to lose their identity, their Pakistani roots. But by doing this they did not allow me my own identity.

The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world.

I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs.

I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.



AFTAB MALIK
It was not until university that I began to think about what it meant to be a Muslim. Until then, life was pretty much plain sailing. I prayed and would fast in the month of Ramadan, but only half-heartedly.


Rather than architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life

Experiences at the mosque taught me that Islam was something that came from the sub-continent: backward and ritualistic.

But my perception and understanding of Islam changed as I soon discovered that Islam had an intellectual and spiritual tradition.

Little did I know that I'd become part of an increasing number of Muslims in the West who, in the past decade or so, have been seeking the revivification of an authentic, traditional wisdom; one that rises above sectarian divisions and discredits the angry rhetoric of the orphans of modernity.

Rather than being architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Some Muslims today, in their rhetoric or by their actions, portray a faith whose adherents want a religion to die for, as opposed to live for. These Muslims are replacing the legacy of that civilization with anger and hatred.

Confusion rife

Unfortunately, despite the huge upsurge of interest in Islam, there remains much confusion as to what it's really about.

A twisted and mutated offspring is wreaking havoc in the name of Islam

While "the war on terrorism" has shifted relations between Islam and the West in tectonic proportions, the responses by Muslims have been different.

Some argue that 9/11 signalled the ultimate showdown between Islam and the West; others reactively repeat the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace". And another segment of the community has decided it is time for some serious and critical reflection.

These messages have been mixed and confuse many people, who cannot understand why so many Muslims are angry.

Despite the immense suffering in the Muslim world, nothing can justify the heinous actions that result in the spilling of innocent blood.

Devoid of the necessary skills and tools to decipher the religious texts, minions of chaos have side-stepped over 1,000 years of scholasticism and Koranic exegesis [critical explanation of a text] to create their own deluded Sharia - a new law couched in Islamic terminology established solely to be the antithesis of the West.

Under this law, there is only hatred and rejection. Under this law, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are its victims.

Classical traditions

For the integrity of Islam, these individuals and their organisations need to be seen as they are: marginal and heretical.


Traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today

So far are they from classical notions of ethics and morality, manifestations of this extreme reading of Islam are more in line with "Islamicised" Marxist-Leninist notions of revolution and anti-imperialist struggle than with anything derived from the Koran and the Sunna through a classical legal tradition.

Muslim reformers who dismantled and undermined the Islamic tradition with its legal philosophy, an apparatus of law and system of spirituality during the 19th and 20th Centuries, paved the way for a twisted and mutated offspring that is wreaking havoc on the Earth in the name of Islam.

So what is traditional Islam? It really means orthodoxy, consisting of the four Sunni legal schools of thought (madhahibs), two schools of doctrine (aqida) and the science of ihsan (excellence or perfection), otherwise known as tasawwuf.

Traditional Islam teaches how to view tribulation and oppression through prophetic eyes and not how to contribute to it.

By restoring the equilibrium between the heart and soul, the intellect and creation, traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today and, once again, marginalise and eject extremism from the Muslim discourse.


So what does everybody think?

I think Islam needs to modernise especially in it's attitudes towards women if it is ever to be truely compatible with the West.

Never knew u were female(MOscow Matt??)

Well it really depends on how fundamentalist you're going to be. Obviously we all have friends who are "muslim" who never go to worship and who are on a diet of hamburgers and french fries.

All Abrahamic religions, when taken literally, can be viewed as "socially backward" and yes i agree with you fundamentalists must modernize because if they dont they will negatively affect people around them.

For instance, the Christian Bible essentially attributes woman's pain in childbirth to the fact that Eve was gulled into eating the apple. I have met Christians to date who still believe this. Woman in the BIble and in the Koran are also clearly placed in a subordinate position to men, because this is the way it is, and anything else is contra natura.

Really, the answer is a No. If you are the "ideal" follower of an Abrahamic faith as taught in the holy books, the west will not be a compatible place for assimilation, but of course this doesn't mean you can't LIVE there, Jesus hung out with sinners you know.

The west is viewed by many Muslims, including christians and muslims living IN the west as the New Babylon where sin is rife.

The United States, of course, is the w**** of Babylon = P.

I think its hard to look at 30,000 years of human evolution and behavior and say our "modern thinking" makes past culture 100% wrong. I think men do have a place at the head of the household. You should respect and love women period, but I do believe men and women should have some kind of roles in society. I think a man should provide for his wife and kids, not the other way around. I don't mind women in profession, but how many people on this earth would vote for a female candidate? 10-15%. Maybe I'm socialy backwards, but I think there is a certain order to human nature that has trickled down through human behavior.

Slavery has existed since forever worldwide up until the late 19th century.

Are you going to try to justify slavery just becuse it was a long standing tradition?

Might've been an "extreme" example, but yes I know where you're coming from, and I Know there are obviously limits to the gender roles, like a man can obviously not give birth to a child, and thus the female is enburdened with nurturing child because the child is attached to whoever it sees first / breastfeeds it. When i was a baby even when my dad wanted to take care of me alone or carry me around, i refused.



IMO slavery cannot be justified in 2006, but can be justified in history as socially accepted behavior thoughout almost every culture, including Native American history. I have a hard time riduculing the past becuase I can't experience what it was like to live during those social conditions.

[Yrkoon]

MoscowMatt wrote: These two people's accounts of life as a Muslim are taken from BBC news on-line



NAGINA SHAH
I was born into a strict Pakistani Muslim background but, when I was 19, I decided to break away from my family.


My parents chose a husband for me - I was engaged at 14 and forced into marriage at 17

I have three brothers and three sisters, and am the youngest in the family. I'm the only one born in England, in 1972, a few years after my parents had emigrated from Pakistan.

My upbringing was very strict, even by Asian community standards. My family were Sunnis [the majority branch of Islam] and our faith and religion were largely influenced by - and intertwined with - our culture.

But it was backward, strict and suffocating. I was not allowed to go out on my own or even travel on buses.

I went to an all-girls school, although my father believed girls should not really be educated. Instead, all attention was focused on my brothers, who were expected to become doctors or lawyers.

My father preached one thing but did something else in practice. He said we needed to be pure and pious but was himself quite volatile. In contrast, my mother would never say boo to a goose.

The double standards really struck me. I always felt suppressed and suffocated by my father and brothers, who ran the household.

I was never able to accept or understand why my brothers were treated better than me. They were allowed to go out, mix with women, drive, go to college, have an opinion. I was allowed to do none of these things.

Turning point

My parents chose a husband for me. I was engaged to him at 14 and forced into marriage at 17. when I was 19, I had had enough and I decided to run away from home. On 8 August 1991, I packed my bags and went.

I have since put myself through college and university and now consider myself as an independent career woman.

At the time, I left with hardly anything. And having lived in a sheltered, reclusive environment, I suddenly had to face up to real life for the first time.

I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me

I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university.

When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess.

There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.

Torn identity

I went through the most enormous life-changing experience. I must have been numb and in shock for about two years.

I became a totally different person, and found I was also quite spiritual and could relate to many religions at different levels.


Since leaving home I have not been in touch with my family. I would not be able to live my life the way I choose if my family have anything to do with it. I do not blame my parents for not seeing my point of view. They both come from a very different culture.

There is a cultural clash between my parents' generation and mine. The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.

I believe my parents were so strict because they did not want to lose their identity, their Pakistani roots. But by doing this they did not allow me my own identity.

The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world.

I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs.

I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.



AFTAB MALIK
It was not until university that I began to think about what it meant to be a Muslim. Until then, life was pretty much plain sailing. I prayed and would fast in the month of Ramadan, but only half-heartedly.


Rather than architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life

Experiences at the mosque taught me that Islam was something that came from the sub-continent: backward and ritualistic.

But my perception and understanding of Islam changed as I soon discovered that Islam had an intellectual and spiritual tradition.

Little did I know that I'd become part of an increasing number of Muslims in the West who, in the past decade or so, have been seeking the revivification of an authentic, traditional wisdom; one that rises above sectarian divisions and discredits the angry rhetoric of the orphans of modernity.

Rather than being architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Some Muslims today, in their rhetoric or by their actions, portray a faith whose adherents want a religion to die for, as opposed to live for. These Muslims are replacing the legacy of that civilization with anger and hatred.

Confusion rife

Unfortunately, despite the huge upsurge of interest in Islam, there remains much confusion as to what it's really about.

A twisted and mutated offspring is wreaking havoc in the name of Islam

While "the war on terrorism" has shifted relations between Islam and the West in tectonic proportions, the responses by Muslims have been different.

Some argue that 9/11 signalled the ultimate showdown between Islam and the West; others reactively repeat the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace". And another segment of the community has decided it is time for some serious and critical reflection.

These messages have been mixed and confuse many people, who cannot understand why so many Muslims are angry.

Despite the immense suffering in the Muslim world, nothing can justify the heinous actions that result in the spilling of innocent blood.

Devoid of the necessary skills and tools to decipher the religious texts, minions of chaos have side-stepped over 1,000 years of scholasticism and Koranic exegesis [critical explanation of a text] to create their own deluded Sharia - a new law couched in Islamic terminology established solely to be the antithesis of the West.

Under this law, there is only hatred and rejection. Under this law, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are its victims.

Classical traditions

For the integrity of Islam, these individuals and their organisations need to be seen as they are: marginal and heretical.


Traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today

So far are they from classical notions of ethics and morality, manifestations of this extreme reading of Islam are more in line with "Islamicised" Marxist-Leninist notions of revolution and anti-imperialist struggle than with anything derived from the Koran and the Sunna through a classical legal tradition.

Muslim reformers who dismantled and undermined the Islamic tradition with its legal philosophy, an apparatus of law and system of spirituality during the 19th and 20th Centuries, paved the way for a twisted and mutated offspring that is wreaking havoc on the Earth in the name of Islam.

So what is traditional Islam? It really means orthodoxy, consisting of the four Sunni legal schools of thought (madhahibs), two schools of doctrine (aqida) and the science of ihsan (excellence or perfection), otherwise known as tasawwuf.

Traditional Islam teaches how to view tribulation and oppression through prophetic eyes and not how to contribute to it.

By restoring the equilibrium between the heart and soul, the intellect and creation, traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today and, once again, marginalise and eject extremism from the Muslim discourse.


So what does everybody think?

I think Islam needs to modernise especially in it's attitudes towards women if it is ever to be truely compatible with the West.

Is Pakistan a middle east country?

No? then why are you posting this thread here?

[MoscowMatt]

Yrkoon wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: These two people's accounts of life as a Muslim are taken from BBC news on-line



NAGINA SHAH
I was born into a strict Pakistani Muslim background but, when I was 19, I decided to break away from my family.


My parents chose a husband for me - I was engaged at 14 and forced into marriage at 17

I have three brothers and three sisters, and am the youngest in the family. I'm the only one born in England, in 1972, a few years after my parents had emigrated from Pakistan.

My upbringing was very strict, even by Asian community standards. My family were Sunnis [the majority branch of Islam] and our faith and religion were largely influenced by - and intertwined with - our culture.

But it was backward, strict and suffocating. I was not allowed to go out on my own or even travel on buses.

I went to an all-girls school, although my father believed girls should not really be educated. Instead, all attention was focused on my brothers, who were expected to become doctors or lawyers.

My father preached one thing but did something else in practice. He said we needed to be pure and pious but was himself quite volatile. In contrast, my mother would never say boo to a goose.

The double standards really struck me. I always felt suppressed and suffocated by my father and brothers, who ran the household.

I was never able to accept or understand why my brothers were treated better than me. They were allowed to go out, mix with women, drive, go to college, have an opinion. I was allowed to do none of these things.

Turning point

My parents chose a husband for me. I was engaged to him at 14 and forced into marriage at 17. when I was 19, I had had enough and I decided to run away from home. On 8 August 1991, I packed my bags and went.

I have since put myself through college and university and now consider myself as an independent career woman.

At the time, I left with hardly anything. And having lived in a sheltered, reclusive environment, I suddenly had to face up to real life for the first time.

I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me

I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university.

When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess.

There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.

Torn identity

I went through the most enormous life-changing experience. I must have been numb and in shock for about two years.

I became a totally different person, and found I was also quite spiritual and could relate to many religions at different levels.


Since leaving home I have not been in touch with my family. I would not be able to live my life the way I choose if my family have anything to do with it. I do not blame my parents for not seeing my point of view. They both come from a very different culture.

There is a cultural clash between my parents' generation and mine. The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.

I believe my parents were so strict because they did not want to lose their identity, their Pakistani roots. But by doing this they did not allow me my own identity.

The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world.

I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs.

I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.



AFTAB MALIK
It was not until university that I began to think about what it meant to be a Muslim. Until then, life was pretty much plain sailing. I prayed and would fast in the month of Ramadan, but only half-heartedly.


Rather than architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life

Experiences at the mosque taught me that Islam was something that came from the sub-continent: backward and ritualistic.

But my perception and understanding of Islam changed as I soon discovered that Islam had an intellectual and spiritual tradition.

Little did I know that I'd become part of an increasing number of Muslims in the West who, in the past decade or so, have been seeking the revivification of an authentic, traditional wisdom; one that rises above sectarian divisions and discredits the angry rhetoric of the orphans of modernity.

Rather than being architects of destruction, traditional Muslims were builders of a magnificent civilization synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Some Muslims today, in their rhetoric or by their actions, portray a faith whose adherents want a religion to die for, as opposed to live for. These Muslims are replacing the legacy of that civilization with anger and hatred.

Confusion rife

Unfortunately, despite the huge upsurge of interest in Islam, there remains much confusion as to what it's really about.

A twisted and mutated offspring is wreaking havoc in the name of Islam

While "the war on terrorism" has shifted relations between Islam and the West in tectonic proportions, the responses by Muslims have been different.

Some argue that 9/11 signalled the ultimate showdown between Islam and the West; others reactively repeat the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace". And another segment of the community has decided it is time for some serious and critical reflection.

These messages have been mixed and confuse many people, who cannot understand why so many Muslims are angry.

Despite the immense suffering in the Muslim world, nothing can justify the heinous actions that result in the spilling of innocent blood.

Devoid of the necessary skills and tools to decipher the religious texts, minions of chaos have side-stepped over 1,000 years of scholasticism and Koranic exegesis [critical explanation of a text] to create their own deluded Sharia - a new law couched in Islamic terminology established solely to be the antithesis of the West.

Under this law, there is only hatred and rejection. Under this law, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are its victims.

Classical traditions

For the integrity of Islam, these individuals and their organisations need to be seen as they are: marginal and heretical.


Traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today

So far are they from classical notions of ethics and morality, manifestations of this extreme reading of Islam are more in line with "Islamicised" Marxist-Leninist notions of revolution and anti-imperialist struggle than with anything derived from the Koran and the Sunna through a classical legal tradition.

Muslim reformers who dismantled and undermined the Islamic tradition with its legal philosophy, an apparatus of law and system of spirituality during the 19th and 20th Centuries, paved the way for a twisted and mutated offspring that is wreaking havoc on the Earth in the name of Islam.

So what is traditional Islam? It really means orthodoxy, consisting of the four Sunni legal schools of thought (madhahibs), two schools of doctrine (aqida) and the science of ihsan (excellence or perfection), otherwise known as tasawwuf.

Traditional Islam teaches how to view tribulation and oppression through prophetic eyes and not how to contribute to it.

By restoring the equilibrium between the heart and soul, the intellect and creation, traditional Islam can help calm the frantic nature so prevalent in Muslim psyche today and, once again, marginalise and eject extremism from the Muslim discourse.


So what does everybody think?

I think Islam needs to modernise especially in it's attitudes towards women if it is ever to be truely compatible with the West.

Is Pakistan a middle east country?

No? then why are you posting this thread here?

Is your post contributing to the discussion?Er No, so why post it?!!! :roll: :roll:

If the moderators wish to move it then that is fine but seeing as you are not one then just stick to debating.

[MoscowMatt]

Yrkoon wrote: Is Pakistan a middle east country?



Middle East defines a cultural area, so it does not have precise borders. The most common and highly arbitrary definition includes: Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Yemen, and Palestine. Iran is often the eastern border, but Afghanistan is also occasionally included because of their close relationship (ethnically and religiously) to the larger group of Iranian peoples as well as historical connections to the Middle East including being part of the various empires that have spanned the region such as those of the Persians and Arabs among others. Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and western-Pakistan (Balochistan and North West Frontier Province) share close cultural, linguistic, and historical ties with Iran and are also part of the Iranian plateau, whereas Iran's relationship with Arab states is based more upon religion and geographic proximity. Also the Kurds, another group of Iranic linguistic extraction, are the largest ethnic group in the Middle East without their own state like some other ethnic groups in the region.


Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!!! :lol:

[Saracen]

Is Islam compatible with the West? Islam is compatible for all times and places, so yeah, it is. Does it have to accept Western values? Not at all. There are many things in the West that Islam and most Muslims view as incompatible with Islam. It's not a matter of superior values, but a matter of what values you incorporate into your daily life.

Western values are no way superior to Islamic values and vice-versa. Everyone holds his values, and as long as people respect each others values, then I'd say that that's all that's needed. Does Islam have to suckup to the West and "reform" itself to be "compatible" with the West? That's like saying that Islam should become Western. Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree: keep your values to yourself, and I'll keep mine:

"You have your own religion and I have mine."
-Koran 109:6

[mendosan]

Saracen wrote: Is Islam compatible with the West? Islam is compatible for all times and places, so yeah, it is. Does it have to accept Western values? Not at all. There are many things in the West that Islam and most Muslims view as incompatible with Islam. It's not a matter of superior values, but a matter of what values you incorporate into your daily life.

Western values are no way superior to Islamic values and vice-versa. Everyone holds his values, and as long as people respect each others values, then I'd say that that's all that's needed. Does Islam have to suckup to the West and "reform" itself to be "compatible" with the West? That's like saying that Islam should become Western. Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree: keep your values to yourself, and I'll keep mine:

"You have your own religion and I have mine."
-Koran 109:6

You see this is my problem you have to veiw your own values as superior and somthing thats worth defending (which is what muslims do) it would be nice if some PC people would take a leaf out of there book.

If Islam doesn't become western then it has no place here, hartsh but true.

[Yrkoon]

MoscowMatt wrote: Yrkoon wrote: Is Pakistan a middle east country?



Middle East defines a cultural area, so it does not have precise borders.

What a mass of BULL. The Middle east is a very precise geographic area, with clearly defined borders. Are you going to argue with the US government, specifically, the CIA world factbook?

Pakistan is not in the middle east. period.