Political Crossfire Forums

[scoobysnack]

Duchifas wrote: scoobysnack wrote: Because Zionists promote harm to Jewish people because it helps thier cause in the eyes of the sympathetic world.

Sympathetic world? To whom? To Zionists? To Jews?

What are you on?

Quote: They promote anti-semitism around the world, so the world's Jewish people feel they need to come and settle in Israel where they will be free from anti-semitism. Without Jewish people settlting in Israel when it first started it couldn't have survived.

Sweetie, the "world" really never needed any help from the Zionists to be anti-semitic. Zionism, as you understand it, started in late 1800s. However, Jews were persecuted for centuries before that. They were expelled from Spain in 1492 and from other European countries on many occasions. They were slaughtered during the Crusades. They were raped and murdered by hundreds of thousands during the Chmelnitzki massacres in 1600s. They were forbidden to settle within Russia proper until 1900s.

Believe you me, anti-semitism did not start up as some sort of promotional behind the scenes scheme by the Zionists, who prodded the hapless Gentiles to hate Jews. The hapless Gentiles were quite happy to do it of their own free will and desire for a thousand years before modern Zionism came into existence.

Writing off anti-semitism as some sort of Zionist scheme is one step from being complicit in it.

Quote: From what I've read, Anti-semitism helps Zionism. Do you like anti-semites? The Zionists say they are thier best friends.

Do I like anti-semites? I don't really know many. Or any, for that matter. I don't think there are many left around.

What I know are some uneducated idiots whose sole basis for anti-semitism is rummaging through a few trashy websites on the internet that accuse Jews of anything and everything.

I think that to be a real anti-semite, you have to know something more substantial about the Jewish people, you have to devote some time to studying Jewish history and culture and religion, and then based on that, make an educated decision to hate Jews and what we represent. It takes time, effort and brains to be a real anti-semite. And not too many people are willing or able to invest that in anti-semitism. What you have these days, for the most part, is people doing some superficial reading limited to sources found on google and wiki, and then assume that they qualify as anti-semites because they spout trash in the direction of the Jews. Frankly, I don't think such people are anti-semites. I think they are just lazy and dumb.

I've always considered myself a Zionist, because I supported the Jewish state, Israel. It wasn't until I started looking into the plan to create a pure Jewish state, a couple of months ago, that I started questioning what I believed.

By the way, semitic is a language:

Definitions of SEMITIC on the Web:

1) A language group in the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew and Arabic. 2) description of Middle East peoples that trace their origin from the biblical Noah and his son Shem; these include Jews and Arabs.

www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/glossary.htm

The Jewish people need to come up with a new word for people they think are insulting them. The Jewish people seem to accuse Arabs of being anti-semitic, when they are semitic.

What do you think about the plan for the United Nations, how they helped create Israel, and the plan for the world government?

Is it because the Jewish people were Gods people that they were persecuted, so they could be tested? Why do people dislike Jews. It's not like babies are born to hate Jews. What led them to these beliefs?

Could this have anything to do with it?

One of the first changes we would need to make is at the foundation, our banking system. Exodus 22 says that if you lend money to poor people you can not extort money from them in the form of interest. In Proverbs 28:8 the message is very clear, He says that getting rich by charging interest is wrong and that God will take his wealth and give it to the poor. Psalms 15 says that Yahweh will dwell with those who are righteous and do not charge interest on their loans. In Deuteronomy 15 it describes how all debts are forgiven every 7 years in the year of Jubilee. There are 22 times in the Old Testament which speak of the sin of charging interest on a loan. The sweat of one's brow is to be the measure of one's wage.

Jesus talked almost constantly about power and wealth and how the righteous are to relate to the poor. He explained that you can not serve God and mammon because you will love one and hate the other (Matthew 6:24. He made it clear that it will be very hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19: 23-24). Then there is the prayer which he taught us to pray where we ask for our debts to be forgiven in the same way we have forgiven other’s debts (Matthew 6:12).

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0729-28.htm

For most of its 2,000 year history, Christianity not only frowned on capitalism, but banned it outright. Capitalism is making money with money. Interest, capital gains, investment income — everything we call "unearned income" — these are the lifeblood of capitalism. But until fairly recently, they were all banned by the Christian churches. Even buying and selling at a profit was proscribed. It was unthinkable for a Christian to be a businessman.

This Christian view of economics is grounded in the Bible. The law against charging interest goes back to Exodus 22: 24-25, "If you lend money to one of your poor neighbors among my people, you shall not act like an extortioner toward him by demanding interest from him." This prohibition is repeated 22 times in the Old Testament. Proverbs 28:8 says, "He who increases his wealth by interest and overcharge amasses it for someone else who will bestow it on the poor." Psalm 15 says, "Yahweh, who can find a home in your tent, who can dwell on your holy mountain? Whoever lives blamelessly, who acts uprightly, who speaks the truth from the heart, ... who asks no interest on loans, who takes no bribe to harm the innocent. No one who so acts can ever be shaken."

The New Testament also has some things to say about economics. Most of them should be profoundly troubling to the wealthy. James 5:1, for example, says, "Next a word to you who are rich. Weep and wail over the miserable fate overtaking you: your riches ... will be evidence against you and consume your flesh like fire. ... You have lived on the land in wanton luxury, gorging yourselves — and on the day appointed for your slaughter."

Jesus himself had much to say on the subject. Perhaps the most famous is Matthew 19: 21-24: "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. ... Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

For 1500 years, the church banned charging interest. The reason Jews got such a bad reputation as bankers and merchants was that they were engaging in practices forbidden to Christians. (The irony is that all the Biblical passages against interest are in the Hebrew scriptures, not the New Testament. For some reason, the Christians took them more seriously than the Jews, at least for a while.)

http://www.rmbowman.com/catholic/econom2.htm

This is where the Rothschild banking dynasty comes into play, and I posted that in my first post:


The Israeli Supreme Court in Jerusalem.

The first thing you will notice is the pyramid with the all Seeing Eye just like the one you will see on the American dollar bill, it sits in a circle to the left.

... Rothschild Dynasty and his five sons, who established central banks throughout Europe. The Rothschilds made several stipulations with the Israeli Government before the building began, among them were. The Rothschilds would pick the plot of land to build the Supreme Court; they would use their own architects, and no one would ever know how much the building cost. It took them four years to build this structure with many secrets built into it.



From the left you will see Teddy Kollek, then Lord Rothschild, on the right standing you will see Shimon Peres, and setting at the bottom left Yhzhak Rabin.

please read the full article:

The Roots of Evil in Jerusalem. - by Jerry Golden (Jewish)

The fact still remains that an evil force has been put into place in Jerusalem and has spread throughout Israel, in preparations for the end time and the seat of the anti-Christ. For if we are to believe that the anti-Christ is to have his seat on the Temple Mount, then we must come to grips with some truths not being preached today.

http://www.thegoldenreport.com/asp/jerrysnewsmanager/anmviewer.asp?a=817

[Duchifas]

scoobysnack wrote: I've always considered myself a Zionist, because I supported the Jewish state, Israel. It wasn't until I started looking into the plan to create a pure Jewish state, a couple of months ago, that I started questioning what I believed.

May I ask you...do you support the Japanese state? How about the Lithuanian one?

Then, can you tell me, why Japanese can have a Japanese state, Lithuanians can have a Lithuanian state, but Jews can't, in your opinion, have a Jewish state?

[Duchifas]

Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: Writing off anti-semitism as some sort of Zionist scheme is one step from being complicit in it.
No, it isn't. Not in my opinion.


Quote: What I know are some uneducated idiots whose sole basis for anti-semitism is rummaging through a few trashy websites on the internet that accuse Jews of anything and everything.

I think that to be a real anti-semite, you have to know something more substantial about the Jewish people, you have to devote some time to studying Jewish history and culture and religion, and then based on that, make an educated decision to hate Jews and what we represent. It takes time, effort and brains to be a real anti-semite. And not too many people are willing or able to invest that in anti-semitism. What you have these days, for the most part, is people doing some superficial reading limited to sources found on google and wiki, and then assume that they qualify as anti-semites because they spout trash in the direction of the Jews. Frankly, I don't think such people are anti-semites. I think they are just lazy and dumb.
I disagree. I think ignorance and xenophobia were two of the primary reasons for anti-semitism throughout years, and I think those are still two of the main reasons now. I think no one is actually an anti-semite because they "made an educated decision to hate what Jews represent" - especially considering that such a decision can't really be made in an educated fashion (what does the Jewish belief system really represent? what does the Jewish ethnicity represent?).

The Jewish belief system (and to some degree its imitations) represents moral responsibility based on a system of non-relative moral values, derived from a Divine source. I am not saying that it is the sole such system, but as far as history is concerned, it is the first one that has gained widespread popularity and acceptance (though in most cases, in much diluted form). The Jewish belief system, in simple words, represents a major attempt to change the way humanity sees itself and behaves itself.

Those concepts, morality and responsibility, are very very very inconvenient, uncomfortable and unwanted concepts to many people. Thus, they (and their promoters) have been consistently resisted/persecuted by many people in many different regions of the world.

That's the real reason for anti-semitism for real anti-semites. Xenophobia and ignorance are just useful tools to accomplish the purposes of anti-semitism.

Look, let me put it to you this way. The average Russian peasant, back in the day in 1700s, has never met a Jew in his life. As far as he is concerned, Jews poison wells and have horns. Why? Because that's what the priest told the Congregation on Sunday. That Christ-killers have horns and poison wells.

Now, is this illiterate Russian peasant a real anti-semite? I don't think so. I think he is just a supersticious, dumb idiot. If his priest told him that Englishmen have tails, he would have believed him too and would have hated the English with a passion. He is not an anti-semite. He is an idiot.

Modern version of the idiot is a bit more advanced. He knows how to use google and wiki and he can browse through rense.com. But that's about it. At the end of the day, he is no different from the illiterate peasant. If the same trashy site tells him that the Earth is run by a race of reptillian aliens or a secret society of bankers, he will believe.

Is he an anti-semite? No, he is just a useful idiot. Useful to real anti-semites.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: what does the Jewish belief system really represent?

Well I would say it is to be a light unto the Nations that this represents.

But of course, I don't expect a person with secular leanings to buy this.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Those concepts, morality and responsibility, are very very very inconvenient, uncomfortable and unwanted concepts to many people. Thus, they (and their promoters) have been consistently resisted/persecuted by many people in many different regions of the world.

That's the real reason for anti-semitism for real anti-semites.

I totally agree.

[scoobysnack]

Duchifas wrote: scoobysnack wrote: I've always considered myself a Zionist, because I supported the Jewish state, Israel. It wasn't until I started looking into the plan to create a pure Jewish state, a couple of months ago, that I started questioning what I believed.

May I ask you...do you support the Japanese state? How about the Lithuanian one?

Then, can you tell me, why Japanese can have a Japanese state, Lithuanians can have a Lithuanian state, but Jews can't, in your opinion, have a Jewish state?

That's not the point. I've always considered being Jewish as a religion, not a race. I know many atheists who claim to be Jews also, by the way. So maybe Judaism is a race. Is it a race or a religion?

Here's the difference. Israel was set up for Jewish people to have a homeland. It was not set up for Christians or Muslims to live there. It's a Jewish state, called Israel. Japan, is a country with all sorts of religions.

Your question of whether I support a Japanese state is deceiving. Your question should be do I support a Muslim (Islamic) state, or a Christian state. Do you support creating an Islamic state? That's what the war on terrorism seems to be about. Getting rid of religious controlled states, replacing them with democracies.

I'm not saying I want to get rid of Israel, in fact I support them over the Muslims, even though from reading this thread, you might not think so. I'm just asking what I think are serious questions. I think it's very hypocritical we can have a Jewish state, but not a Islamic state.

What do you think?

I see Israel as fulfilling prophecy (whether fake or real) to stage the Messiah, planed by the United Nations, Theosophists, Rosicrucians, etc.

Maitreya. I expect their to be an Antichrist before the real Christ comes to save his people, Jews included.

PS, I'm glad you are engaging in conversation. I've had many questions, but everyone calls me an anti-Semite for even bringing them up.

[scoobysnack]

The reason I bring this subject up is because I've been researching the esoteric agenda of the world's elite. You and I have the same enemy that are trying to destroy us both. The Judeo-Christian beliefs must be destroyed, or demonized to the point of apostasy for the New World Order to succeed. The same people behind Hitler and his esoteric beliefs, and now at it again, trying to destroy us both.

Read through this.

AMAZING AND ACCURATE EXPOSÉ OF THE NEW AGE
BY A SECULAR JEW

The following is the first part of an article on the New Age Movement from a Jewish perspective. Written for the Jewish people by a Jew who lives in Israel, the article provides a wealth of information about the New Age/NWO and the genocidal plan which has been determined for the Jews. The article also exposes the threat to Judaism that is presented by the Lubavitcher/Kabbalist Movement, which is Jewish mysticism derived from the same Chaldean source as the New Age.

You will, however, notice positive allusions to Christian activists and the Catholic Church. One misconception we have found among the Zionist Jews is a growing admiration for the dominionist Religious Right, which is supplying information on the New Age/New World Order to Jews and Christians alike. The average Jewish/Christian conservative believes that the NA/NWO conspiracy is extrinsic to orthodox Judaism and Christianity, and fails to discern the infiltration of his respective religion/government by the false prophets of evangelicalism who are part and parcel of the very conspiracy which they pretend to expose.

full article:

source


This is a also a very good expose of the New World Order, which is a threat to our belief systems.

THESIS X ANTITHESIS = SYNTHESIS


Time Magazine, May 25, 1992, "A Chat With The Gorbachev's", p. 51. "Nothing about Mikhail Gorbachev's triumphal two-week tour of the U.S. suggested that he was a politician removed from power. Americans... received him with standing ovations... Though his visit to the US was ostensibly to raise funds and make contacts for ...the Gorbachev Foundation, it also eased him smoothly into the rarefied ranks of senior statesmen whose pronouncements are expected to reverberate around the globe. His theme is a corollary of his own perestroika: the whole world is in need of change and reorientation... Gorbachev would not be drawn into an admission that socialist theory had failed or that Communism was dead. An alternative between capitalism and communism is in the offing..."

http://www.cephasministry.com/n1007.html

[cap'n queasy]

Why in the heck would orthodox Jews try to promote Maitreya Buddha as Moshiach? :lol:

[scoobysnack]

cap'n queasy wrote: Why in the heck would orthodox Jews try to promote Maitreya Buddha as Moshiach? :lol:

Who said anything about orthodox Jews promoting Maitreya. Just like the Christian Church has been infiltrated by the enemy so has Judaism. Freemasonry and the other secret esoteric societies is what binds them.

Seriously take the time to look through the first site I posted from the "secular Jew", and then the second one, which is just as important...


Weishaupt established his Masters of the Illuminati as a secret society. They had some major secrets to keep from the peoples they wanted to enslave. Weishaupt felt that he had a potentially strong ally in the society called Freemasonry. Officially established within the Western World in 1717, Masons taught that, one day, the attitudes and values of all men from all nations would evolve naturally, to the point where all religions would meld together. Every man would come to understand that all men are brothers. And, Freemasons foresaw that they would lead the way to this new global understanding. This new global system was inevitable and would happen naturally, peacefully.

Weishaupt said "Nonsense"! It would never happen peacefully and naturally; it must happen only by violent revolution. Hence, Weishaupt and his men began an infiltration into the European Masonic lodges in 1776, and in just 13 years, by 1789, Weishaupt controlled all Masonic lodges in Europe with his violent brand of change.

The existence of one type of government or society, named Thesis, would provoke the appearance of the opposite of that type of government or society, which Hegel named Antithesis.

Thesis and Antithesis would naturally begin to battle one another, since they were exactly opposite systems and, therefore, would see matters differently.

If Thesis and Antithesis battled each other for a long period of time, with neither side annihilating the other, that battling would result in both side changing to a hybrid system of government and society, which Hegel called Synthesis.

http://www.cephasministry.com/n1007.html

[Duchifas]

scoobysnack wrote: Duchifas wrote: scoobysnack wrote: I've always considered myself a Zionist, because I supported the Jewish state, Israel. It wasn't until I started looking into the plan to create a pure Jewish state, a couple of months ago, that I started questioning what I believed.

May I ask you...do you support the Japanese state? How about the Lithuanian one?

Then, can you tell me, why Japanese can have a Japanese state, Lithuanians can have a Lithuanian state, but Jews can't, in your opinion, have a Jewish state?

That's not the point. I've always considered being Jewish as a religion, not a race. I know many atheists who claim to be Jews also, by the way. So maybe Judaism is a race. Is it a race or a religion?

It doesn't matter what you consider Judaism. If the Japanese can have a state, then so should Jews.

Your distinction is spurious at best. You are essentially saying that the Japanese can discriminate by national origin (Japanese state), but Jews can't discriminate by religion (Jewish state).

Why the distinction?

Why do the Japanese have the license to have a state based on ethnicity, but Jews can't do it based on religion (not that Israel is based on religion, factually speaking)?

US law forbids discrimination on both accounts. It is illegal to fire someone based on his religion. It is JUST AS ILLEGAL to fire someone based on his ethnicity/nationality. Discrimination is discrimination, under either of those factors.

So your argument sounds ridiculous. Why is it perfectly OK in your mind for the Japanese to have a national-Japanese state (to the exclusion of Chinese), but for Jews it is NOT ok to have a state based on religion? Do Jews deserve less?

In fact, I would argue that the discrimination inherent in a national state is worse than in a religion based state. At least, you can convert to Judaism and get Israeli citizenship. But if you are not Japanese, you cannot make yourself Japanese and get Japanese citizenship. Thus, a national state discrimination, such as in Japan, Lithuania, Hungary, or a multitude of other states, is worse than any potential state based on Judaism.

So now, taking that into account, please explain to me why, in your opinion, the Japanese are entitled to a national Japanese state, but Jews are not entitled to one.

Quote: Here's the difference. Israel was set up for Jewish people to have a homeland. It was not set up for Christians or Muslims to live there. It's a Jewish state, called Israel. Japan, is a country with all sorts of religions.

Your question of whether I support a Japanese state is deceiving. Your question should be do I support a Muslim (Islamic) state, or a Christian state. Do you support creating an Islamic state? That's what the war on terrorism seems to be about. Getting rid of religious controlled states, replacing them with democracies.

If Muslims want an Islamic state, of course I fully support it. What do I care what kind of a state they have? My only problem with it is when such a state advocates and promotes violent jihad, terrorism, and islamization of the rest of the world. That's a big problem. But if they want to have a Muslim state in some Shmendrikstan and mind their own business, I have no problem with it whatsoever. And if Christians want to set up a Christian state in Vatican (as they have), I also have no problem with it whatsoever.

Of course, when it comes to Jews, YOU have a big problem with them having a state....

Quote: I'm not saying I want to get rid of Israel, in fact I support them over the Muslims, even though from reading this thread, you might not think so. I'm just asking what I think are serious questions. I think it's very hypocritical we can have a Jewish state, but not a Islamic state.

What do you think?

Addressed above. I am perfectly happy with an Islamic state, so long as it does not pose a threat to a community of other civilized nations.

Quote: PS, I'm glad you are engaging in conversation. I've had many questions, but everyone calls me an anti-Semite for even bringing them up.

You have to work much harder to deserve that title. I have some other choice labels that I think would fit you perfectly, but I'll be polite and keep them to myself for now.

[scoobysnack]

Here's the difference. If you are born in Japan you are Japanese. If you are born in China you are Chinese. If you are born if Israel, you are Israeli, not Jewish! If I as a Christian, have a baby in Israel, I will not consider him/her Jewish, I will consider them an Israeli.

Do Zionists believe that Muslims have a right to occupy Israel. Of course not, that's what makes them Zionists, but remember, not Jewish.

You want a country based on Religion, not nationality. If you were saying people in Israel were Israelis I would not have a problem, but you seem to imply that Israelis are Jewish. All I see is the double standard.

"It is clear that a country cannot gain unless another loses and it cannot prevail without making others miserable."
--Voltaire in 1764

You know the reason the United States is the world's supreme ruler is because we are the biggest bully on the planet, not because we are morally just, right. From my research into covert warfare, we have overthrown a lot of democracies, including in Iran to impose a ruler that bows to our demands. The United States is partly responsible for the current leadership in Iran right now. Anti-semitism promotes Zionism, like reverse psycology. Since there is a leader in Iran that promotes "anti-semitism" that makes us Americans sympathize with Israelis, and by association, Jews, because Israel is a Jewish state. The United States is a Zionist government, simply because weunquestionably support Israel.

TP-AJAX: Operation Ajax, was a prime example of a sophisticated and successful false flag attack. False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is, flying the flag of a country other than one's own.

Learn all about how the C.I.A. along with British intelligence by way of deception to overthrew a democracy, so we could take the oil profits, and control away from the citizens of Iran. Here's information from the National Security Archives. Click the picture below.



This is excerpts from a book review of All The Shah’s Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror, By Stephen Kinzer, with some other sources included.

“There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know.”
--Harry Truman

Those wishing to learn about terrorism and America’s image in the Middle East would be well advised to take Truman’s words seriously and to familiarize themselves with the history of the American-backed coup d'état in Iran. The story of Operation Ajax may be worth telling and retelling for those who wonder why the people of the region in general, and Iranians in particular, remain distrustful of the United States.

Any analysis of America’s position in the Middle East would be incomplete without a thorough understanding of the U.S. role in overthrowing Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, the democratically elected and revered Prime Minister who nationalized Iran’s oil. In All The Shah’s Men, Stephen Kinzer revisits Operation Ajax, the 1953 CIA-sponsored coup that ousted Mossadegh and returned the Shah to power. TPAJAX. The plan comprised propaganda, provocations, demonstrations, and bribery, and employed agents of influence, "false flag" operatives, dissident military leaders, and paid protesters. The measure of success seemed easy enough to gauge—"all that really mattered was that Tehran be in turmoil," writes Kinzer. Though not forgotten in Iran, the 1953 coup has sadly faded from memory in the United States.

Dr. Mossadegh nationalized Iranian oil in 1951 to wide acclaim. He was immensely popular at home and tremendously respected abroad, so much so that he was chosen Time’s “Man of The Year.”

Eisenhower’s election reversed this foreign policy approach, bringing the United States much closer to Britain. The rigidly polarized worldview of John Foster Dulles and his brother Allen Dulles, both high-ranking figures in the Eisenhower administration, allowed the British to enlist American support for the coup. … The Dulles brothers accepted the British argument that Mossadegh was too soft on communists and that the Tudeh (the pro-Soviet Communist party) may soon control Iran. Thus, the CIA backed Operation Ajax and allowed Kermit Roosevelt to ally himself with figures as diverse as the Shah, General Zahedi, Ayatollah Kashani, and local gang-leader Shaban Jafari in order to overthrow Mossadegh. Kinzer superbly describes the chaotic atmosphere in Tehran in August 1953 when Mossadegh was finally driven from power.

… the CIA dispatched Kermit Roosevelt (Theodore Roosevelt’s grandson) to Iran to destabilize the government and to replace the Prime Minister with a leader more acceptable to the Americans and British.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/h...notes-All.shtml

The point of the story is that the U.S. and the British are not actually spreading democracy, they are expanding the empire and installing governments that are convenient to our leaders interests. The CIA funded terrorist attacks and even had Iranians working for the C.I.A. and posing as Communists harassed religious leaders and staged the bombing of one cleric's home in a campaign to turn the country's Islamic religious community against Mossadegh's government. Here's a NY Times website dedicated to this subject. Click on the picture directly below for the secret history of the C.I.A. in Iran.

and for those who can't figure it out:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

[Duchifas]

scoobysnack wrote: Here's the difference. If you are born in Japan you are Japanese. If you are born in China you are Chinese. If you are born if Israel, you are Israeli, not Jewish! If I as a Christian, have a baby in Israel, I will not consider him/her Jewish, I will consider them an Israeli.

Do Zionists believe that Muslims have a right to occupy Israel. Of course not, that's what makes them Zionists, but remember, not Jewish.

You want a country based on Religion, not nationality. If you were saying people in Israel were Israelis I would not have a problem, but you seem to imply that Israelis are Jewish. All I see is the double standard.

Uhh, where exactly are you getting this from?

Yes, most Israelis are Jewish. Now, where did you see me say that Israelis can't be Christian or Muslim or Buddhists?

If an Israeli wants to be a Christian, let him be a Christian. What do I care?

[Saracen]

Wow... ahahahaha... the opening post was really... refreshing. Never knew I'd hit on conspiracy theory nonsense like this again! :lol:

Duchifas, good to see you're still around. Did ya miss me?

[Duchifas]

Saracen wrote: Wow... ahahahaha... the opening post was really... refreshing. Never knew I'd hit on conspiracy theory nonsense like this again! :lol:

Duchifas, good to see you're still around. Did ya miss me?

Mmm, to be honest, not really. :-D

[Saracen]

Duchifas wrote: Mmm, to be honest, not really.

Agh, well. No hard feelings.

[Nathyn]

I don't really care whether or not Zionism is rooted in Jewish scriptures, because regardless, it is evil. I'm sorry to be so blunt and violate Godwin's law, but ironically, it shares many characteristics with Nazism.

It is an originally secular nationalist ideology, which involves racial\religious supremacy, and supports the supremacy of the military, ruthlessly stopping at nothing to establish a Jewish state. It could be accurately defined as a "National Socialist," movement, because Zionists are both Nationalists and Socialists.

It's nothing more than a Jewish version of Pan-Islamism.

Having taken several courses in Psychology, I can say that this movement will increase bigotry between Jews and non-Jews. Because rather than simply recognizing us as all human beings, to be judged based upon our character, it divides us into Jew and Goy, to be judged and treated differently. Now, to some extent, Judaism without Zionism already does this, but Zionism takes it further, to say that such sentiments should carry over into politics.

[Nathyn]

Duchifas wrote: scoobysnack wrote: Duchifas wrote: scoobysnack wrote: I've always considered myself a Zionist, because I supported the Jewish state, Israel. It wasn't until I started looking into the plan to create a pure Jewish state, a couple of months ago, that I started questioning what I believed.

May I ask you...do you support the Japanese state? How about the Lithuanian one?

Then, can you tell me, why Japanese can have a Japanese state, Lithuanians can have a Lithuanian state, but Jews can't, in your opinion, have a Jewish state?

That's not the point. I've always considered being Jewish as a religion, not a race. I know many atheists who claim to be Jews also, by the way. So maybe Judaism is a race. Is it a race or a religion?

It doesn't matter what you consider Judaism. If the Japanese can have a state, then so should Jews.
No race, religion, or ethnic group should have explicit control over any particular area. Land, itself, cannot be justifiably owned. Establishing ownership based upon such an arbitrary criteria as religion is all the more unjust. It is no different than the racists in America and Britain who want to establish both countries as "white" nations or the black supremacists who want to establish "black" nations.

Nationalism, period, is wrong; racial and religious nationalism even more so.

It is hypocritical, on the one hand, for Jews to have faced the perils of German nationalism and socialism, but then to suddenly become nationalists and socialists themselves.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Land, itself, cannot be justifiably owned.

Pffft.

[Duchifas]

Nathyn wrote: No race, religion, or ethnic group should have explicit control over any particular area. Land, itself, cannot be justifiably owned. Establishing ownership based upon such an arbitrary criteria as religion is all the more unjust. It is no different than the racists in America and Britain who want to establish both countries as "white" nations or the black supremacists who want to establish "black" nations.

Nationalism, period, is wrong; racial and religious nationalism even more so.

It is hypocritical, on the one hand, for Jews to have faced the perils of German nationalism and socialism, but then to suddenly become nationalists and socialists themselves.

What the hell do you want from Jews? You think nation-states are wrong? Fine. There is one in Russia, 150 million big. Japan. China. Germany. Spain. Poland. France. Iran. Turkey. India. ETC. All national/ethnic states. According to you, all "wrong."

The little 6 million Jewish state in the middle of a stinking desert you lose sleep over?

What's your problem?

[Saracen]

Duchifas wrote: What the hell do you want from Jews? You think nation-states are wrong? Fine. There is one in Russia, 150 million big. Japan. China. Germany. Spain. Poland. France. Iran. Turkey. India. ETC. All national/ethnic states. According to you, all "wrong."

The little 6 million Jewish state in the middle of a stinking desert you lose sleep over?

What's your problem?

The land had other people living on it. That's the problem.

That's where the problems end, Duchifas, to be honest. Frankly, I've always been misled to believe that Israel is the enemy, or Zionism is the enemy, or Zionists and Israelis are my enemies... Truth is, I'm tired of using the term "enemy" on a collective ground. I don't believe that Israelis or Jews or even Zionists are my enemies. I don't believe they are at all. I am only anti-Zionist in the sense that I do not ascribe to the ideology of Zionism. I am not anti-Semitic or anti-Judaic at all, because if I were, I'd might as well be anti-everything else... but I'm not. I don't believe in exclusion or exception when it comes to people.

In essence, Nathyn is correct when he said that a certain ethnic group has the sole right to an area. Japanese have a right to their nation state because they lived there. Palestinians and Israelis have a right to Palestine-Israel because they live there. Putting politics aside, we can co-exist. If we let our national differences come between us, I fear for the future of this world and humanity. And I'm not bullsh!++ing here, Duchifas. I mean what I say. I frankly don't consider you my enemy, nor do I consider any person my enemy unless he himself has done something to take the status of enemy. In that case, I don't consider the Zionist settlers enemies, but I consider those who oppress me and others my enemies... yes, even Palestinians who attack innocent Israelis and vice-versa, for these people have done actions worthy of my despite.

What I'm getting at is that even though Israelis have uprooted Palestinians from their homes in the past, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for me to despise other Israelis who weren't involved in crimes committed against the Palestinians, and no reason for me to hate those among my people who have not committed crimes to the Israelis.