Political Crossfire Forums

[lilwolf]

psholtz wrote: lilwolf wrote: Butchers Psholtz from Saudi Arabia and the ME. No where else.
Yes, terrorists from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan were certainly involved in 9/11.. Remember 9/11 was in many ways just another criminal act committed by the same gang of drug dealers who have been ruling this country the days of Iran-Contra and BCCI, and to understand 9/11 you have to understand Iran-Contra and BCCI..

Amongst the Saudis, names like Adnan Khoshoggi figure prominently.

Also remember that Kissinger's portfolio of consulting clients includes many Saudi billionaires who openly fund Islamic terrorism aimed against US interests. Also bear in mind that Kissinger's portfolio of consulting clients include people who go by the name of "bin Laden"..

Quote: Prove it then if you can beyond a shadow of doubt that 1600 Pennsylavania ave. is the sopurce.
I would say that Dick Cheney would be one of the lead suspects in 9/11..


I am stil;l not convinced that cheney had anything to do with this. I just can't agree that this was a set up by this govt. Perhaps I will never buy it. but that is my choice. You have not proved anything other than people meeting people and the VP and there is nothing

[lilwolf]

Norrin Radd wrote: lilwolf wrote: Norrin Radd wrote: lilwolf wrote: Greta photography and all but I don't buy into the conspiracy crap. There is so much of it going on that it is staggering. Everybody has the story and all others are wrong. :roll:
This was done by terrorists (butchers) and no one else.

Who injected 11 American veterans with plutonium?

Who tested LSD on unwitting subjects resulting in the death of Frank Olson?

Who sprayed dangerous biological simulants on US cities covertly, resulting in 11 people being hospitalized in San Frnacisco and the death of Ed Nevin?

How many other cities were sprayed with biological simulants? Were biological agents ever sprayed?

How would you feel if your father had been injected by your own government with plutonium?

Ever read the senate report titled "Is Military Research Hazardous to Veteran's Health"?

No, obviously you haven't.

Can you provide a verifiable source that is not gossip rags stuff that backs up that absurd claim? i would like to read this before I tell you where it goes. To many years in the military to buy all of this crap

Butchers Psholtz from Saudi Arabia and the ME. No where else. Prove it then if you can beyond a shadow of doubt that 1600 Pennsylavania ave. is the sopurce. Not with yours or anybody elses conspiracy crap okay. If you can't do that then you are pissing on a camp fire and it stinks. :-|

Are you kidding me?

I thought people here knew better than to challenge me on information I post. I can back up every single thing I post.

HUMAN EXPERIMENTATION

Soon after the spraying, 11 people came down with hard-to-treat infections at the old Stanford University Hospital in San Francisco. By November, one man had died. Edward Nevin, 75, a retired Pacific Gas and Electric Co. worker recovering from a prostate operation, had succumbed to an infection with Serratia marcescens that attacked his heart valves.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/10/31/MNG149JERH1.DTL


Resources on Drug Experimentation and Related Mind Control Experiments by the U.S. Government

http://www.gpc.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/lsd.html


IS MILITARY RESEARCH HAZARDOUS TO VETERANS' HEALTH?
LESSONS SPANNING HALF A CENTURY

http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/rockrep.cfm

Resources on Nonconsensual Human Experimentation

http://www.gpc.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment.html

Open Air Testing of Biological Simulants

Dr. Leonard A. Cole gave the following testimony before the United States Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs on May 6, 1994:

http://www.healthfreedom.info/Bio-Chemical%20Warfare%20Testing.htm

US admits to 50 secret tests of bio weapons on troops

July 1 2003

The Pentagon used potentially dangerous chemical and biological agents in 50 secret tests involving US military personnel in a decade-long project to measure the weapons' combat capabilities, according to Pentagon findings.

The tests were done between 1962 and 1973 and involved 5,842 service members. Many were not told of the tests, some of which involved releases of deadly nerve agents in Alaska and Hawaii.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/01/1056825376086.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/16/national/main593670.shtml

(CBS/AP) The Pentagon is continuing to withhold documents on Cold War chemical and biological weapons tests that used unsuspecting sailors as "human samplers" after telling Congress it had released all medically relevant information.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/01/national/main561218.shtml

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has acknowledged it carried out a sweeping Cold War-era test programme of chemical and germ warfare agents in Britain and North America.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/DVNS_CBW.htm

A SHORT HISTORY OF US GOVERNMENT RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/biowar.html


Secret US Human Biological Experimentation

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/experiment.htm

Germ Warfare Against America:

http://www.all-natural.com/part-3b.html

International Committee on
Offensive Microwave Weapons
Vs.
The United States of America


http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/harlsuit.htm

MKULTRA Documents

http://www.parascope.com/ds/mkultradocs.htm

MKULTRA APPENDIX A

XVII. Testing And Use Of Chemical And Biological Agents By The Intelligence Community

http://www.parascope.com/ds/documentslibrary/documents/mkultrahearing/ mkultraHearingAppendixA.htm


THE FRANK OLSON Project

http://www.frankolsonproject.org/Articles/LondonExpress.html


A VERY IMPORTANT LETTER ON THE RADIATION TESTS, This letter was sent by Atomic Scientist, Edward A. Martell, LTC, ret., to Hazel O'Leary

PART 1 of 6

http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/martell1.htm

U.S. admits nerve gas test

November 1, 2002

Matt Kelley
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON · The military secretly tested sarin nerve agent in a Hawaii forest preserve in 1967, the Pentagon acknowledged Thursday in the latest disclosures about Cold War-era testing of biological and chemical weapons.

Other secret tests in Hawaii in 1966 and the Panama Canal Zone in 1963 released a germ meant as a harmless stand-in for the bacteria that cause anthrax, the Defense Department said. A 1966 experiment in an undisclosed "tropical jungle type environment" involved spraying tear gas on unprotected U.S. military volunteers.

The Defense Department released summaries of five chemical and biological weapons tests Thursday. The disclosures were part of an effort to research and make public such tests from the 1960s and 1970s to alert veterans who may have been exposed.

The tests were part of Project 112, a military program in the 1960s and 1970s to test chemical and biological weapons and defenses against them. Parts of the testing program done on Navy ships were called Project SHAD, or Shipboard Hazard and Defense.

The United States scrapped its biological and chemical weapons programs in the early 1970s.

Some of those involved in the tests say they now suffer health problems linked to their exposure to dangerous chemicals and germs. They are pressing the Veterans Affairs Department to compensate them.

The Pentagon this year acknowledged for the first time that some of the 1960s tests used real chemical and biological weapons, not just benign stand-ins.

http://billnelson.senate.gov/news/details.cfm?id=244652&


Impressive list of information but damn near every one relates to the cold war era. While I am not disputing this stuff, you gotta do better than that. This stuff is old news. If you have evidence of testing being done (100% proof) within say 5 years then I will pay attemtion but until then this is a full blown waste of time for me.
Those tests were wrong yes, but they are cold war and earlier so it does not apply to the present time frame I am interested in.

Sorry no sale. :-|

[Claudia Schiffer]

psholtz wrote: Norrin Radd wrote: The Pentagon this year acknowledged for the first time that some of the 1960s tests used real chemical and biological weapons, not just benign stand-ins.

http://billnelson.senate.gov/news/details.cfm?id=244652&
Look up US Code Title 50, Chapter 32, Section 1520a:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001520---a000-.html

Pretty scary stuff.. :shock:

Holy sh**T!!! :shock:

[letfreedomring]

Norrin Radd wrote: letfreedomring wrote: psholtz wrote: Revenant wrote: psholtz wrote: Yes, the leaders of America are on the same level as Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Or perhaps even lower.

It would not surprise me to see (another) Civil War erupt in this nation sooner or later, unless things change drastically in this nation..

Even if you assert that the majority of conspiracy theories are true, I really fail to see how America's leaders today have killed as many as Stalin.

Iraq War: 45000
Afghanistan: 45000 (at most)
9/11: 3000

Total: 93000


Stalin: 40-60 Million
Hitler: 1 Million (your estimate), 11 million (everyone else's estimate)
Mao: Rough estimates range in the millions.
Wall Street financed Stalin and Mao..

What America does is worse.

America, however, has extremely strong and powerful traditions of freedom and liberty, so the NWO has to be very careful about how they set about imposing a police state in this nation; thus far they have been using the method of Fabian socailism w/ great success.

I am curious. If this country is so bad as it seems. Why do:

1. People from other countries keep wanting to coming here, and risk their lives in the process?
2. You still live in this country, instead of moving to our neighbor in the North (free health care), or Europe?

Why don't you guys stop whining and complaining and actually do something about it. Run for political office, or go around the nation and spread the message, so people will "get it". It's fine to play "Monday Quarterback" from the comfort of your own home, but it's quite another to put your money where your mouth is. Seriously.....

So, instead of wanting to make my country better, I should leave it? You would have made a good British sympathizer during the revolutionary war. If you don't like it, leave.

A tleast the founding fathers had something to work with. They had a population of people who knew that government's could not be trusted. Today we have a population of sheeple who allow the t.v. to tell them what to think.

Heck, most Americans do not even know that the US is in a declared state of national emergency, do not know anything about most of the UN treaties we have signed, have never heard of the Reece committee, Col. House, Norman DOdd and they know nothing about the goals of the CFR, or who founded the organization.

We have had numerous Congressmen, as well as other respectable people, try to warn us about what is really going on, about the true goals of the CFR and the Trilateral Commission, yet most Americans would not be able to parphrase just one of these warnings.

Until the American people start caring about the truth, there is little we can do, as they are too deeply buried in denial to be able to look at information with an open mind.

This was more directed for Psholtz, but since you responded, I'll ask you this question:

You focus on this from me:

2. You still live in this country, instead of moving to our neighbor in the North (free health care), or Europe?

but conveniently ignore my question regarding if he is trying to better this country in some way other than sitting and complain and moan. If you think too many Americans are ignorant and not ready for change, then by that, you already gave up hope, and if so how are you going better this country? You see, the "Jersey Girls", though I disagree with some of their view points, have the guts to put their money where their mouth is, and force the government's hands. Psholtz on the other hand, object by not paying taxes :roll:

By the way, I am going to ignore your "British sympathizer" comment.

[Norrin Radd]

lilwolf wrote:


Impressive list of information but damn near every one relates to the cold war era. While I am not disputing this stuff, you gotta do better than that. This stuff is old news. If you have evidence of testing being done (100% proof) within say 5 years then I will pay attemtion but until then this is a full blown waste of time for me.
Those tests were wrong yes, but they are cold war and earlier so it does not apply to the present time frame I am interested in.

Sorry no sale. :-|

All of the above has been proven and/or admitted to by the government.

The fact that you didn't know about these crimes, as you asked for proof, shows little value you place on the truth.

You ask for recent crimes, but you seem uninterested in the fact that it took decades for the truth to come out about these many tests.

You ask for the impossible, since most of what I posted took decades to be declassified and there is still a lot of classified information regarding some of these crimes so if you want to know what was going on 5 years ago, hop in a time machine and go 40-50 years in the future and then you will likely learn about what testing is being done now.

Not one person was ever punished for all of the testing I linked to. In fact, our government granted immunity to the doctors who performed torture for the Japs before and during WWII. What was not admitted to until many years later was the fact that the government also paid these torturers in exchange for their data. Did you ever read about unit 731?

Only the Tuskeggee families, the family of Frank Olson and the families of those injected with plutonium were awarded compensation, too bad for all the rest.

The case of Ed Nevin went to the Supreme Court, but I guess you wouldn't be interested in the fact that justice was not served in his case.

I would think someone with a military background would be aware of the fact that it takes so long for the truth to become declassified.

How long did it take to declassify the McCollum memo? Why are there still Pearl Harbor documents that are classified? Why are there still classified documents concerning JFK?

How long did it take for the US to admit it had a role in the 1953 coup in Iran? Has anything new been released on the Gulf of Tonkin? How long did that take?

GWU is home to the National Security Archives, ever been there? They have a lot of great info there, but not as much as they used to have. Why do I say used to have........?

Ever hear of the reclassification project?

[Norrin Radd]

letfreedomring wrote: Norrin Radd wrote: letfreedomring wrote: psholtz wrote: Revenant wrote: psholtz wrote: Yes, the leaders of America are on the same level as Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Or perhaps even lower.

It would not surprise me to see (another) Civil War erupt in this nation sooner or later, unless things change drastically in this nation..

Even if you assert that the majority of conspiracy theories are true, I really fail to see how America's leaders today have killed as many as Stalin.

Iraq War: 45000
Afghanistan: 45000 (at most)
9/11: 3000

Total: 93000


Stalin: 40-60 Million
Hitler: 1 Million (your estimate), 11 million (everyone else's estimate)
Mao: Rough estimates range in the millions.
Wall Street financed Stalin and Mao..

What America does is worse.

America, however, has extremely strong and powerful traditions of freedom and liberty, so the NWO has to be very careful about how they set about imposing a police state in this nation; thus far they have been using the method of Fabian socailism w/ great success.

I am curious. If this country is so bad as it seems. Why do:

1. People from other countries keep wanting to coming here, and risk their lives in the process?
2. You still live in this country, instead of moving to our neighbor in the North (free health care), or Europe?

Why don't you guys stop whining and complaining and actually do something about it. Run for political office, or go around the nation and spread the message, so people will "get it". It's fine to play "Monday Quarterback" from the comfort of your own home, but it's quite another to put your money where your mouth is. Seriously.....

So, instead of wanting to make my country better, I should leave it? You would have made a good British sympathizer during the revolutionary war. If you don't like it, leave.

A tleast the founding fathers had something to work with. They had a population of people who knew that government's could not be trusted. Today we have a population of sheeple who allow the t.v. to tell them what to think.

Heck, most Americans do not even know that the US is in a declared state of national emergency, do not know anything about most of the UN treaties we have signed, have never heard of the Reece committee, Col. House, Norman DOdd and they know nothing about the goals of the CFR, or who founded the organization.

We have had numerous Congressmen, as well as other respectable people, try to warn us about what is really going on, about the true goals of the CFR and the Trilateral Commission, yet most Americans would not be able to parphrase just one of these warnings.

Until the American people start caring about the truth, there is little we can do, as they are too deeply buried in denial to be able to look at information with an open mind.

This was more directed for Psholtz, but since you responded, I'll ask you this question:

You focus on this from me:

2. You still live in this country, instead of moving to our neighbor in the North (free health care), or Europe?

but conveniently ignore my question regarding if he is trying to better this country in some way other than sitting and complain and moan. If you think too many Americans are ignorant and not ready for change, then by that, you already gave up hope, and if so how are you going better this country? You see, the "Jersey Girls", though I disagree with some of their view points, have the guts to put their money where their mouth is, and force the government's hands. Psholtz on the other hand, object by not paying taxes :roll:

By the way, I am going to ignore your "British sympathizer" comment.

Tell me what the f**k I should do.

Tell me.

I have spent the last 10 years of my life eduating myself. I have spent thousands of hours doing research on many dozens of topics.

Some people claim that conspiracy theorists want to feel special, belving they know something others do not, but that is crap. I do not want to feel special and I don't feel special. I was many times happier before I learned about the dozens of topics I now find important. Part of me wishes I could go back to being ignorant, but I can't, it is impossible.

Americans have become very ignorant. Most know nothing about what is really going on. I can not force people to learn about dozens of important topics, but without this knowledge, they will never know the dangers they face.

The problem is that both parties have sold out the American people and until we admit the problem, we can't begin to change it. It's much like trying to help an alcoholic, which is impossible until he ADMITS THE PROBLEM.

Until the majority of the American people will admit that both parties have sold us out, then there is really nothing I can do to make a significant difference. If you have any ideas, please shar ethem ,as I woul dlove to know what I can do which will make any kind of difference.

[Norrin Radd]

psholtz wrote: Norrin Radd wrote: The Pentagon this year acknowledged for the first time that some of the 1960s tests used real chemical and biological weapons, not just benign stand-ins.

http://billnelson.senate.gov/news/details.cfm?id=244652&
Look up US Code Title 50, Chapter 32, Section 1520a:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001520---a000-.html

Pretty scary stuff.. :shock:

There is little related to this topic that you could show me that I have not seen before. I have 200 plus hours into this research and when I started it, I spent 30 hours a week for the first 4-6 weeks sifting.

I don't remember how I came across it, but what started my interest in this was the Senate report tiled "Is Military Research Hazardous to Veteran's Health?"

I printed the 87 pages and read them. Normally, it would only take me a couple of hours to read 87 pages, but this report took me 3 days. I was so disgusted, so angry, so sad, I had to put the report down over and over again, taking me 3 days to get through it.

Without trying to sound overly dramatic, I can still show you the stains from my tears on those pages.

Those 3 days I lost most of the respect for my government. Six weeks later I had lost the few scraps of respect I had left.

I can understand why people do not want to read this information, as most people are afraid to learn that everything they believe in is a lie.

[psholtz]

letfreedomring wrote: This was more directed for Psholtz, but since you responded, I'll ask you this question:

You focus on this from me:

2. You still live in this country, instead of moving to our neighbor in the North (free health care), or Europe?

but conveniently ignore my question regarding if he is trying to better this country in some way other than sitting and complain and moan. If you think too many Americans are ignorant and not ready for change, then by that, you already gave up hope, and if so how are you going better this country? You see, the "Jersey Girls", though I disagree with some of their view points, have the guts to put their money where their mouth is, and force the government's hands. Psholtz on the other hand, object by not paying taxes :roll:

By the way, I am going to ignore your "British sympathizer" comment.
I think the far more pertinent question is why haven't YOU moved to Europe and enrolled yourself in a free health care plan? :lol:

[lilwolf]

Norrin Radd wrote: lilwolf wrote:


Impressive list of information but damn near every one relates to the cold war era. While I am not disputing this stuff, you gotta do better than that. This stuff is old news. If you have evidence of testing being done (100% proof) within say 5 years then I will pay attemtion but until then this is a full blown waste of time for me.
Those tests were wrong yes, but they are cold war and earlier so it does not apply to the present time frame I am interested in.

Sorry no sale. :-|

All of the above has been proven and/or admitted to by the government.

The fact that you didn't know about these crimes, as you asked for proof, shows little value you place on the truth.

You ask for recent crimes, but you seem uninterested in the fact that it took decades for the truth to come out about these many tests.

You ask for the impossible, since most of what I posted took decades to be declassified and there is still a lot of classified information regarding some of these crimes so if you want to know what was going on 5 years ago, hop in a time machine and go 40-50 years in the future and then you will likely learn about what testing is being done now.

Not one person was ever punished for all of the testing I linked to. In fact, our government granted immunity to the doctors who performed torture for the Japs before and during WWII. What was not admitted to until many years later was the fact that the government also paid these torturers in exchange for their data. Did you ever read about unit 731?

Only the Tuskeggee families, the family of Frank Olson and the families of those injected with plutonium were awarded compensation, too bad for all the rest.

The case of Ed Nevin went to the Supreme Court, but I guess you wouldn't be interested in the fact that justice was not served in his case.

I would think someone with a military background would be aware of the fact that it takes so long for the truth to become declassified.

How long did it take to declassify the McCollum memo? Why are there still Pearl Harbor documents that are classified? Why are there still classified documents concerning JFK?

How long did it take for the US to admit it had a role in the 1953 coup in Iran? Has anything new been released on the Gulf of Tonkin? How long did that take?

GWU is home to the National Security Archives, ever been there? They have a lot of great info there, but not as much as they used to have. Why do I say used to have........?

Ever hear of the reclassification project?


Look, I knew about this stuff probably before you were born. Hell my dad still talks about a lot of this. I am interested in the facts yes, but the keys here are is this, until someone is prosecuted for this stuff it has no bearing in a court of law. During the cold war eras there were tests that you haven't even covered, so those are like these not fully verifiable to me. I have seen a great deal of classified documents and theses are small things that have gone on. I am not belittling the people or the cases, but I do not want to waste time on things that no one, and not even you can fully verify.

Of course who has not heard of Unti 731 incdent in Japan. If a person denies that then he has to deny all of the evidence you have presented. I am not denying one thing. But neither you nor I can actually prove anything because no one has the true stories here. I also know that many of these people involved were not prosecuted and will never be held responsible.
During what I call ignorant times, there were things going on that we did not know about that involved weaponry and the former Soviet Union. It is not pleasant that our nation or any nation used humans subjects.

There is nothnig anyone can do about stuff like this that happened a long time back. Not one thing. So everyone can stand there and scream how bad every one is and it will accomplish nothing.

The reclassification act is clearly a good thing in some respects for national security aspects.
I have spent a good number of years in the military and had clearances to things I wish I had never learned, but the main thing I am saying here is this: There is nothnig that you nor I can do about this. All of this is history and it will never see the light of day, Never!!

So, all I really wanted to know is if their are anything new these days, and I am not talking about DU shells.
By the way I have been inside the National Security Archives and in spite of what used to be there , there was not that much removed from there, and only items that dealt with National Security issues.

[Mighty Oak]

Norrin Radd wrote:

Tell me what the f**k I should do.

Tell me.

I have spent the last 10 years of my life eduating myself. I have spent thousands of hours doing research on many dozens of topics.

Some people claim that conspiracy theorists want to feel special, belving they know something others do not, but that is crap. I do not want to feel special and I don't feel special. I was many times happier before I learned about the dozens of topics I now find important. Part of me wishes I could go back to being ignorant, but I can't, it is impossible.

Americans have become very ignorant. Most know nothing about what is really going on. I can not force people to learn about dozens of important topics, but without this knowledge, they will never know the dangers they face.

The problem is that both parties have sold out the American people and until we admit the problem, we can't begin to change it. It's much like trying to help an alcoholic, which is impossible until he ADMITS THE PROBLEM.

Until the majority of the American people will admit that both parties have sold us out, then there is really nothing I can do to make a significant difference. If you have any ideas, please shar ethem ,as I woul dlove to know what I can do which will make any kind of difference. Many of us feel exactly the way you do.I've heard this somewhere,I believe it sums it up for us."It kinda feels like that young man that got away from Jeffery Dalmer and ran to the police and begged for help only to be given back to Dalmer to be tortured and killed".Remember he was naked with a drill hole bleeding from his head and one handcuff on his wrist,people see what they want to see,I guess.We can continue to plug away trying to get people to see what we see but until they want to know for themselves they will not believe anything you or I say.Ignorance is not bliss but it is easier.I sometimes regret looking and researching so deeply into our world and I too am aware of many things that most have no desire to know about.It does disrupt your life in a most profound way but if you feel the way I do you know what the right thing to do is and so here we are.

There is so much to be educated on that most people don't have the time or the desire to have to work so feverishly to find out what is real and what is not,it's intertwined.I believe it is crucial to try to get info out before things deterorate to the point where people want to revolt.I believe a revolt is exactly what our controllers want to happen.Marshal law will be enacted and who knows what happens after that.After seeing how easy it was for the authorities to take the guns away from the people who were effected by Katrina.I don't believe we want to see marshal Law.

We are making a difference.There are more and more of us talking and if I die without seeing a significant change I will at least know that I and many others gave a sh*t and did our best in a peaceful manner.We are planting seeds.

Youv'e ask for help to make a difference,I believe you already are.
Exposeing the CFR who openly talk about a one world Government to people will get the ball rolling to people who are ready to know.Ask them how do you think they will be able to accomplish this,in your face or covertly with help from like minded people.Remember its all about compartmentalization.As you are aware, the CFR has infiltrated our Government since the time of its inception.Some Presidents are CFR members.With the planning of the North American Union,it's easy to prove this fact.

peace

[Wizard From Oz]

Fascinating responses and thank you all. I am intrigued no one of you who considered the US government in the same league as Hitler or Stalin where prepared to actually do anything.

None of you spoke of affirmitive action, nor leaving the country all together in search of greater freedoms.

None of you are actually prepared to invest anything - other than time on the internet - To forward your agenda or force change within your governmental processes.

You complain the media is controlled and you cant get your message out

Rubbish - Tell that Vojislav Koštunica - He and his supporters had nothing but street corner rallys to win an election.

You complain about the government discrediting you and educating the people not to think or believe anything you say.

Tell that to Lech Wałęsa a humble electrician that put his life on the line, ultimately did jail time in the atmosphere of total oppression found in Poland during the 70's and 80's

And tell it Ghandi who spent much of his early days in South Africa being beaten and jailed for an ideal

I look at all the retoric and huffing and puffing, and all I see is smoke an mirrors. I see excuses for your lack of action. You tell me about all the ills of the United States, her government her people and her society

The bottom line is you are all spineless when the acid gets put on. When you would rather battle over the placemen of a comma on a witness report than actually do something. It really shows you for what you are.

You call yourselves patriots etc, but you are not prepared to lift a finger except on the keyboard to do show what you believe.

The bottom line is you are all playing "I gotta secret" You need to feel underground and marginalised. Because you see something others dont proves your superiority and intelligence. Of course you are right - there cant be any other answer.

But of your conviction and passion is so strong - Why are you sitting here now reading this instead of organising something proactive?

And no I dont mean civil unrest and illegal acts. Many great activists out there have fought much greater odds than you - without actually hurting another human being, or destroying any property - The State pursecuted them, jailed them, in some case killed them.

All very small prices to pay if you really believe what you say

[psholtz]

Gandhi and Welensa were controlled, paid shills who served the NWO and who served the global, Ruling Elite Banking Establishment.. What you perceive to the be "truth" concerning these men is nothing but carefully crafted media theatrics designed to decieve and ultimately enslave you.

Same can be said of Nelson Mandela, Vaclav Havel, etc... all these "rebels" types who "fight" the system.

In truth, they do nothing of the sort.

They serve the System.

These men are simply tools that were used to decieve the masses.

They risked little to nothing, and they deserve nothing in return.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Gandhi and Welensa were controlled, paid shills who served the NWO and who served the global, Ruling Elite Banking Establishment.. What you perceive to the be "truth" concerning these men is nothing but carefully crafted media theatrics designed to decieve and ultimately enslave you.


Then please provide a biographical summary of the evidence that proves your point. With Ghandi I am interested in your intepretation of his incarceration in South Africa

And with Welensa I hope you pay attention to the 1970 protest that saw him wounded and 80 of his co-workers killed.

Oh psholtz on that topic. Please let us know what charity or action group you donate your unpaid taxes to - Cause we know as a patriot you would not be using your protest as a way to extend your own personal wealth

[psholtz]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: Gandhi and Welensa were controlled, paid shills who served the NWO and who served the global, Ruling Elite Banking Establishment.. What you perceive to the be "truth" concerning these men is nothing but carefully crafted media theatrics designed to decieve and ultimately enslave you.


Then please provide a biographical summary of the evidence that proves your point. With Ghandi I am interested in your intepretation of his incarceration in South Africa
If you want to learn more about Gandhi, you can read here:

http://www.paulsholtz.com/donbell/db19_43.html

Quote: And with Welensa I hope you pay attention to the 1970 protest that saw him wounded and 80 of his co-workers killed.
I'm not familiar w/ Welensa's history, I just know that he serves the NWO today and you would never have heard about him if he didn't..

I don't think Welensa was a darling of the media back in 1970..

That was before I was even born, but I don't think that protest was broadcast on the mass media of that era or anything (unlike say, the Solidarity movement of roughly 1983 or so .. which even I, though I was only a small child, remember seeing blared back and forth all across the "news").

I don't know whether Welensa converted to the Dark Side before or after 1970.. my guess woudl be after, based on what you say.

Quote: Oh psholtz on that topic. Please let us know what charity or action group you donate your unpaid taxes to - Cause we know as a patriot you would not be using your protest as a way to extend your own personal wealth
Most 503c charities are Establishment scams designed to steal your money and use it to finance drugs, Communism, etc.

I tithe 10% of my income to one specific charity that I have researched very, very carefully and that I have full confidence is able to use my money in a responsible way.

However, I can see that your intentions here are foolish and smack of Communism. One does not need to "lose" his wealth to prove he's a man.. quite the opposite, my friend. A real man does not permit himself to be cheated of his property and wealth by fraudulent 503c Communist fronts. Same goes for the IRS. A real man does not permit himself to be unlawfully defrauded by this tyrannical Communist terrorist scam that stalks and haunts our great nation.

[Wizard From Oz]

I'm very interested in learning all about Gandhi's incarceration in South Africa as well...

Ahh huh so you make quantitve statements about a man you know nothing about?

Thanks be betraying to me who it is that I'm dealing w/..

I suspected as much...

Well free to share - this should be really interesting

If you want to learn more about the *real* Gandhi (the one from India), you can read here:

http://www.paulsholtz.com/donbell/db19_43.html

And it only costs me US $24.00 for the honour - what a bargin. Next time can you give a real link

I'm not familiar w/ Welensa's history, I just know that he serves the NWO today and you would never have heard about him if he didn't..

Another quantitive statement based on nothing

That was before I was even born, but I don't think that protest was broadcast on the mass media of that era or anything (unlike say, the Solidarity movement of roughly 1983 or so .. which even I, though I was only a small child, remember seeing blared back and forth all across the "news").

Protests in brutual communist regimes aren't often even today

I tithe 10% of my income to one specific charity that I have researched very, very carefully and that I have full confidence is able to use my money in a responsible way.

Good boy - but is 10% the correct rate for your income?

However, I can see that your intentions here are foolish and smack of Communism.

I am a communist because I challenge your patriotism?

One does not need to "lose" his wealth to prove he's a man.. quite the opposite, my friend. A real man does not permit himself to be cheated of his property and wealth by fraudulent 503c Communist fronts. Same goes for the IRS. A real man does not permit himself to be unlawfully defrauded by this tyrannical Communist terrorist scam that stalks and haunts our great nation.

Even more reason you should be doing something about it then, instead of sitting on the internet

[psholtz]

MG1962 wrote: I am a communist because I challenge your patriotism?

One does not need to "lose" his wealth to prove he's a man.. quite the opposite, my friend. A real man does not permit himself to be cheated of his property and wealth by fraudulent 503c Communist fronts. Same goes for the IRS. A real man does not permit himself to be unlawfully defrauded by this tyrannical Communist terrorist scam that stalks and haunts our great nation.

Even more reason you should be doing something about it then, instead of sitting on the internet
Your inuendo that I'm not a "good" person unless I give to charities seems Communist in nature.

In fact, I believe in tithing, and I do tithe to a very carefully researched charity.. but if a person chooses not to tithe, I think it's that person's perogative..

In fact, most charities are very corrupt.. You should avoid them like the plague.

[Otacon]

Gandhi was not part of the plot for a NWO. If you truely believe that, you are one of the most gulliable people around.

[Norrin Radd]

lilwolf wrote:


Look, I knew about this stuff probably before you were born. Hell my dad still talks about a lot of this. I am interested in the facts yes, but the keys here are is this, until someone is prosecuted for this stuff it has no bearing in a court of law. During the cold war eras there were tests that you haven't even covered, so those are like these not fully verifiable to me. I have seen a great deal of classified documents and theses are small things that have gone on. I am not belittling the people or the cases, but I do not want to waste time on things that no one, and not even you can fully verify.

Of course who has not heard of Unti 731 incdent in Japan. If a person denies that then he has to deny all of the evidence you have presented. I am not denying one thing. But neither you nor I can actually prove anything because no one has the true stories here. I also know that many of these people involved were not prosecuted and will never be held responsible.
During what I call ignorant times, there were things going on that we did not know about that involved weaponry and the former Soviet Union. It is not pleasant that our nation or any nation used humans subjects.

There is nothnig anyone can do about stuff like this that happened a long time back. Not one thing. So everyone can stand there and scream how bad every one is and it will accomplish nothing.

The reclassification act is clearly a good thing in some respects for national security aspects.
I have spent a good number of years in the military and had clearances to things I wish I had never learned, but the main thing I am saying here is this: There is nothnig that you nor I can do about this. All of this is history and it will never see the light of day, Never!!

So, all I really wanted to know is if their are anything new these days, and I am not talking about DU shells.
By the way I have been inside the National Security Archives and in spite of what used to be there , there was not that much removed from there, and only items that dealt with National Security issues.

So, you are willing to trust a government that admits to these many crimes and has allowed those who perpetrated these crimes to go unpunished?

In my opinion, a government that has doen all the things I already listed can't be trusted.

If you wish to belive the government actually cares about the people then that is your choice, but I will never trust them. They covered up TWA 800, the OKC bombing and when a government is willing to lie and coverup major tragedies, to further their agenda, then why would anyone trust them?

If there is any current testing going on, it will likely be at least 40 years before we learn about it.



Secret Agreement Reveals Covert Program to Hide Reclassification from Public

National Archives Signed Deal with Air Force to Disguise
Re-review of Open Files and Mislead Researchers on
Reasons for Withdrawing Previously Open Records.

March 2002 Memorandum of Understanding Released
Through FOIA Request, After Grilling of National Archivist
During Congressional Hearing March 14.

For more information contact:
Thomas Blanton/William Burr/Meredith Fuchs
202/994-7000

Washington D.C., 11 April 2006 - The National Archives and Records Administration secretly agreed to a covert effort, led by the Air Force, the CIA, and other still-hidden intelligence entities, to remove open-shelf archival records and reclassify them while disguising the results so that researchers would not complain, according to a previously secret Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). The secret agreement, made between the Air Force and the National Archives, was declassified pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request by the National Security Archive and posted on the NARA website yesterday.

The heavily excised MOU, signed by assistant archivist Michael Kurtz in March 2002, reveals that the National Archives agreed that the existence of the program was to be kept secret as long as possible: "it is in the interests of both [excised] and the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) to avoid the attention and researcher complaints that may arise from removing material that has already been publicly available," states the MOU. NARA agreed that the withdrawal sheets indicating the removal of documents would conceal any reference to the program and "any reason for the withholding of documents."

NARA also agreed to conceal the identities of the intelligence personnel who were reviewing and removing the documents, according to the agreement, including from NARA's own staff. "NARA will not disclose the true reason for the presence of [deleted agency] AFDO [deleted] personnel at the Archives, to include disclosure to persons within NARA who do not have a validated need-to-know."

The National Security Archive first learned of the existence of the agreement, classified SECRET/[codeword deleted], earlier this year, when Archive staff accompanied historian Matthew Aid to a meeting at NARA to complain about absurd reclassifications such as 50-year-old documents that had been widely published. On February 1, Archive analyst William Burr filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the document. NARA and Defense Department officials acknowledged the existence of the MOU at the March 14, 2006 hearing of a House Government Reform subcommittee chaired by Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Ct), but refused to discuss the substance of the MOU in public session. (Click here to read excerpts from the March 14 hearing.)

During the hearing, Archivist of the United States Allen Weinstein suffered persistent questioning about the MOU from Chairman Shays and other members of the Committee, to which Dr. Weinstein could only reply "it's classified."

"This secret agreement reveals nothing less than a covert operation to white-out the nation's history, aided and abetted by the National Archives," said National Security Archive executive director Thomas Blanton.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20060411/index.htm

National Security has been the cry for lying and hiding the truth for many decades. If you really believe all of these documents need to be classified in order to protect national security, then I am wasting my time.

[Norrin Radd]

MG1962 wrote: Fascinating responses and thank you all. I am intrigued no one of you who considered the US government in the same league as Hitler or Stalin where prepared to actually do anything.

None of you spoke of affirmitive action, nor leaving the country all together in search of greater freedoms.

None of you are actually prepared to invest anything - other than time on the internet - To forward your agenda or force change within your governmental processes.

You complain the media is controlled and you cant get your message out

Rubbish - Tell that Vojislav Koštunica - He and his supporters had nothing but street corner rallys to win an election.

You complain about the government discrediting you and educating the people not to think or believe anything you say.

Tell that to Lech Wałęsa a humble electrician that put his life on the line, ultimately did jail time in the atmosphere of total oppression found in Poland during the 70's and 80's

And tell it Ghandi who spent much of his early days in South Africa being beaten and jailed for an ideal

I look at all the retoric and huffing and puffing, and all I see is smoke an mirrors. I see excuses for your lack of action. You tell me about all the ills of the United States, her government her people and her society

The bottom line is you are all spineless when the acid gets put on. When you would rather battle over the placemen of a comma on a witness report than actually do something. It really shows you for what you are.

You call yourselves patriots etc, but you are not prepared to lift a finger except on the keyboard to do show what you believe.

The bottom line is you are all playing "I gotta secret" You need to feel underground and marginalised. Because you see something others dont proves your superiority and intelligence. Of course you are right - there cant be any other answer.

But of your conviction and passion is so strong - Why are you sitting here now reading this instead of organising something proactive?

And no I dont mean civil unrest and illegal acts. Many great activists out there have fought much greater odds than you - without actually hurting another human being, or destroying any property - The State pursecuted them, jailed them, in some case killed them.

All very small prices to pay if you really believe what you say

So I am spineless? This is typical. You must enjoy allowing others to tell yuo what to think, as it is obvious throughout your post. Especially obvious is this.........

"The bottom line is you are all playing "I gotta secret" You need to feel underground and marginalised. Because you see something others dont proves your superiority and intelligence. "

What a load of crap. This is a conditioned response which I see alll the time and it could not be more wrong. I do not feel special, or more intelligent, or superior, the main difference between me and you is that I have gotten off my ass and educated myself and I refuse to allow others to tell me what to think, while you seem to enjoy having others tell you what to think.

Pathetic.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Your inuendo that I'm not a "good" person unless I give to charities seems Communist in nature.

My point is not about giving to charities at all. I am not even sure a charity can exist in a communist state.

My point is with out the money going somewhere it leaves a person open tp critisim about their motives for not paying tax. As you explain you pay the funds to a prescribed charity of your choice - Assuming it isn't the psholtz party all night fund - then thats the end of it