Political Crossfire Forums

[Ardent]

antonio62 wrote: Ardent wrote: Sixgun_Symphony wrote: Most firearms being smuggled into the UK are coming from Albania and other former Warsaw Pact nations.

More opinion or can you actually back up this assertion.

As for illegal firearms they are not as big a problem as replica and imitation weapons whose use has increased 66% (see link below)
whilst real firearms crime has fallen.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1466065,00.html

This would certainly indicate that criminals are using replicas more often and using real firearms less often.

At the same time :-D

The murder rate for England and Wales is showing its first sustained fall
since the 1960s, according to the annual crime figures published today. A
total of 765 people were killed, including the 52 victims of the July 7 bombings in the 12 months to April 2006.

This is the third successive year that homicides in England and Wales fell
and are down from a peak of 1,047 in 2002 which included the murders committed by Harold Shipman.

One of the most dramatic falls in the last 12 months is in the number of
fatal shootings which have fallen from 77 to 46 largely as a result of targeted police operations.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/crimeandpunishment/story/0,,1824693,00.html

The murder rate and more specifically the gun crime rate in the UK has always been low. New York has had a murder rate 5 times larger than London's consistently for the last 200 years despite for over half of this time guns were legal in Britain. When they were totally legal there was sometimes no gun murders in Britain. The gun legislation has made no difference to gun crime. Gun crime increased rapidly despite the ban on handguns it seems to have peaked now though.

The UK has a much higher crime rates on almost all other types of crime than America or Switzerland where guns are legal because who's going to mug someone who might have a gun on them or burgle someone you know probably has a gun in their house.

US CRIME AND VICTIMIZATION

PDF - http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/2006/pdf/statistical_overviews.pdf


In 2004, U.S. residents age 12 or older experienced an
estimated 24 million violent and property victimizations.
(Catalano, Shannan M. September 2005. Criminal Victimization, 2004.
Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.)


In 2004, there were an estimated 18.6 million property
crimes to persons and their households including burglary,
motor vehicle theft, and theft; an estimated 5.2 million
violent crimes including rape, sexual assault, robbery,
aggravated assault, and simple assault; and an estimated
224,000 personal thefts such as pocket picking and purse
snatching.
(Ibid.)

There were an estimated 501,820 robberies, 1,030,080
aggravated assaults and 3,440,880 simple assaults in
2004.
(Ibid.)

There were an estimated 209,880 rapes, attempted rapes
and sexual assaults to people age 12 and older in 2004,
an increase from 198,850 in 2003.
(Ibid.)

In 2004, there were 1,014,770 thefts of motor vehicles.
(Ibid.)

Youths between the ages of 12 and 15 experienced the
highest rate of overall violent victimization in the 2003
2004 period at a rate of 50.7 per 1,000 persons. Youths
between the ages of 16 and 19 had the second highest
rate, at 49.4 per 1,000 persons.
(Ibid.)

During 2004, 50 percent of all violent victimizations and 39
percent of all property crimes were reported to the police.
(Ibid.)

African Americans experienced more overall violence and
simple assault in 2004 than whites or persons of other
races.
(Ibid.)

During 2004, 22 percent of all violent crime incidents were
committed by an armed offender, and six percent by an
offender with a firearm.
(Ibid.)

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) reported that
there were 16,503 criminal homicides in 2003. The
number of murders increased by 1.7 percent in 2003,
increasing in cities with 100,000 to 249,999 inhabitants
by 6.8 percent and increasing in towns under 10,000 by
20 percent.
(Federal Bureau of Investigation. October 2004. Crime in the United States,


2003. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice.)
Law enforcement made an estimated 597,026 arrests for
violent crime in the United States in 2003. Whites
accounted for 60.5 percent of violent crime arrestees and
African Americans accounted for 37.2 percent.
(Ibid.)

In 2003, about 17 million households experienced one or
more property crimes or had a member age 12 or older
who experienced one or more violent crimes.
(Klaus, Patsy A. October 2004. Crime and the Nation?s Households, 2003.
Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.)


Adolescents and adults in three percent of U.S.
households experienced one or more violent crimes in
2003. Simple assault was the most common violent
crime sustained by households. Members age 12 or older
of an estimated 2.3 million households experienced
simple assault.
(Ibid.)

In 2003, 12.7 percent of U.S. households experienced
one or more property crimes. Ten percent of U.S.
households experienced at least one incident of theft, the
most common property crime.
(Ibid.)

Larger households experienced more victimization in 2003.
Twenty eight percent of households with six or more
persons experienced one or more crimes, compared with
21 percent of households made up of four or five persons,
14 percent of households with two or three persons, and
nine percent of oneperson households.
(Ibid.)

Households in urban areas (19 percent) were more likely
to experience one or more crimes than suburban
households (13 percent) and rural households (12
percent) in 2003. Households in the West were more
likely to experience one or more crimes when compared to
other regions in the U.S.
(Ibid.)

[Ardent]

At the same time as the BCS has shown crime to be at it's lowest in the UK since 1980 and that the average house is now burgled in the UK once every fifty odd years - there has also been the first sustained drop in murders since the 1960's.

The BCS fall in violent crime reflects hospital admissions, the US
Figures don't.



New York - Violent Crime Admissions

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0544,moses,69552,5.html

England and Wales

http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Health&F=1&id=8860

http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/newsevents/media/mediarel/april05/mr050425.html

2.1 million in prison and 8 million on probation. One in 4 of the worlds prisoners reside in America, a country with 5% of the world population, and violent crime still on the rise (16,900 murders last year)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

The UK has 60 million population, whilst America has 300 million thats five times as many, however we have 764 murders and they have 17,000.

As for assaults the UK records all crime including verbal harrasement, common, possession of a knife etc as violent crimes in it's figures, the US only records felonies ( the most serious assaults). Over 50% of UK violent crimes result in no injury to any one.

[antonio62]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

"According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed."

"By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape."

"You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York."

"A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England."

"A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms."

"When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge."

All from one link. I didn't even need look for any others to prove my point. I could even bring up Switzerland. Not to mention thr factors that should cause America to have more crime than the UK.

[Ardent]

antonio62 wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

"According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed."

"By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape."

"You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York."

"A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England."

"A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms."

"When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge."

All from one link. I didn't even need look for any others to prove my point. I could even bring up Switzerland. Not to mention thr factors that should cause America to have more crime than the UK.

Firstly the UN Study suggested that it was Scotland and not England and Wales that had higher levels of violence - (btw it's better if you use a link that actually works)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

The UN Study is absoloute rubbish and relied on 2000 phone calls, it doesn't tally with Cardiff University Medical Schools Hospital Admission research, BMA Findings, the British Crime Survey or the police recorded figures. The UN figure is 10 times the number recorded in official police figures and also is much greater than the far more comprehensive British Crime Survey (which is carried out annually)

As I have already pointed out the UK had 46 gun murders last year compared to over 10,000 in the US. Both gun crime and murder rates have fallen for several years in the UK, whilst murder and violent crime have risen sharply in the US.


According to the police (england and wales) recorded crime figures there were a total of 21,513 offences of serious violence recorded by the police in 2004/05. This represents a decrease of 105 offences from the previous year. Given that this includes homocides, serious assaults and other misc crimes it is not much higher than the total of 17,000 homocides alone which occur in the US.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page39.asp

Serious violence comprises of the offences of homicide, attempted murder, child destruction, causing death by dangerous driving, serious wounding or other act endangering life and endangering a railway passenger.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

Philadelphia for instance has a 1.5 million population and had 384 homicides last year compared to 80 in Scotland a country with a 5 million population.

Street Robbery is not any worse in the UK than in it is in America, as a nation we had about 90,000 last year compared to more than 500,000 accorsing to the US NCVS (figures posted above)

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page21.asp

Also even the NYPD's Police Federation (union) is questioning the way the crime statistics are being manipulated and it's not just New York there have been crime figure scandals in other US Cities.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0544,moses,69552,5.html

[RooK]

Someone went on a useless rant. :roll:

BTW, outright numbers don't fly, they have to be adjusted per capita. Otherwise we'll always appear to have more crime because we have a larger population.

[Otacon]

Bingo. Rook wins.

[antonio62]

Ardent wrote: Firstly the UN Study suggested that it was Scotland and not England and Wales that had higher levels of violence - (btw it's better if you use a link that actually works)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

The UN Study is absoloute rubbish and relied on 2000 phone calls, it doesn't tally with Cardiff University Medical Schools Hospital Admission research, BMA Findings, the British Crime Survey or the police recorded figures. The UN figure is 10 times the number recorded in official police figures and also is much greater than the far more comprehensive British Crime Survey (which is carried out annually)


As I have already pointed out the UK had 46 gun murders last year compared to over 10,000 in the US. Both gun crime and murder rates have fallen for several years in the UK, whilst murder and violent crime have risen sharply in the US.

According to the police (england and wales) recorded crime figures there were a total of 21,513 offences of serious violence recorded by the police in 2004/05. This represents a decrease of 105 offences from the previous year. Given that this includes homocides, serious assaults and other misc crimes it is not much higher than the total of 17,000 homocides alone which occur in the US.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page39.asp

Serious violence comprises of the offences of homicide, attempted murder, child destruction, causing death by dangerous driving, serious wounding or other act endangering life and endangering a railway passenger.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

Philadelphia for instance has a 1.5 million population and had 384 homicides last year compared to 80 in Scotland a country with a 5 million population.

Street Robbery is not any worse in the UK than in it is in America, as a nation we had about 90,000 last year compared to more than 500,000 accorsing to the US NCVS (figures posted above)

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page21.asp

Also even the NYPD's Police Federation (union) is questioning the way the crime statistics are being manipulated and it's not just New York there have been crime figure scandals in other US Cities.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0544,moses,69552,5.html


This was a different UN study as the link it was taken from is from 2003.

The US murder rate has been in freefall. The UK gun crime rate has always been small and was smaller when guns were legal. It may be fallling but it is still higher than when they were legal which shows guns stop crime not cause it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

Here's the working link.

[Ardent]

antonio62 wrote: Ardent wrote: Firstly the UN Study suggested that it was Scotland and not England and Wales that had higher levels of violence - (btw it's better if you use a link that actually works)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

The UN Study is absoloute rubbish and relied on 2000 phone calls, it doesn't tally with Cardiff University Medical Schools Hospital Admission research, BMA Findings, the British Crime Survey or the police recorded figures. The UN figure is 10 times the number recorded in official police figures and also is much greater than the far more comprehensive British Crime Survey (which is carried out annually)


As I have already pointed out the UK had 46 gun murders last year compared to over 10,000 in the US. Both gun crime and murder rates have fallen for several years in the UK, whilst murder and violent crime have risen sharply in the US.

According to the police (england and wales) recorded crime figures there were a total of 21,513 offences of serious violence recorded by the police in 2004/05. This represents a decrease of 105 offences from the previous year. Given that this includes homocides, serious assaults and other misc crimes it is not much higher than the total of 17,000 homocides alone which occur in the US.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page39.asp

Serious violence comprises of the offences of homicide, attempted murder, child destruction, causing death by dangerous driving, serious wounding or other act endangering life and endangering a railway passenger.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

Philadelphia for instance has a 1.5 million population and had 384 homicides last year compared to 80 in Scotland a country with a 5 million population.

Street Robbery is not any worse in the UK than in it is in America, as a nation we had about 90,000 last year compared to more than 500,000 accorsing to the US NCVS (figures posted above)

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page21.asp

Also even the NYPD's Police Federation (union) is questioning the way the crime statistics are being manipulated and it's not just New York there have been crime figure scandals in other US Cities.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0544,moses,69552,5.html


This was a different UN study as the link it was taken from is from 2003.

The US murder rate has been in freefall. The UK gun crime rate has always been small and was smaller when guns were legal. It may be fallling but it is still higher than when they were legal which shows guns stop crime not cause it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

Here's the working link.

What another UN Study based on 2000 phone calls and doesn't tally with either the BMA Figures and Cardiff Med School figures regarding violent crime, the British Crime Survey figures or the police recorded crime figures.

Gun deaths in the UK fell 40% last year from 73 to 46, while murders have fallen over the last three or four years.

Simple assaults (common asasault) aren't even recorded in the US Crime figures - the NCVS puts them at 3,500,000, verbal harrasement isn't recorded and nor are most minor woundings. Only felonies are reported on the UCR figures (aggravated assaults). 50% of UK violent crime involves no injury, and violent crime in the UK has been over reported as since 1998 one offence is now counted as multiple offences - coupled with double counting for the same offence. Whilst the police in places like NY under the Mayors guidance have refused to release full figures and have downgraded crimes in order to meet quotas.

Btw violent crime in America and murders are not in free fall any more.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

As for crime per capita figures as I have already explained the US has five times the population. UK = 60 Million USA = 300 Million.

If the UK was to imprison the same percentage of our population we would have 420,000 people in our prisons and not 85,000.

Violent Crime - UK



Common Assault is not recorded in the US and results in
no injury. Harrasement is verbal and involves no injury,
a large percentage of wounding involves black eyes and
minor injuries - which would not be felonies in the US.

Finally the vast majority of robberies involve mobile phones
etc and do not result in any violent injury, whilst the section
classed as Other (6%) includes dangerous driving, putting passengers
lives at risk on a train or ship and lots of other bizzare criteria.

There were 21,000 Serious Assaults against the person recorded by
the police in 2004 and this is actually falling

[Ardent]

Btw as well as relying on questionaires from between 1000 and 2000 people in a whole country the UN Study takes it's European Figures from an even more poorly researched EU questionaire based on an even smaller sample.

[Ardent]

I would also like to know how the UK has the highest
level of serious violent crime - how do you cover up
serious violent crime - murder, brain injuries and
life changing injuries usually come to the attention of
the police and are recorded amongst the 21,000 serious
crimes against the person. Btw serious violent crime has
fallen in recent years both in terms of recorded police figures
and in the BCS backed up by Cardiff University Medical
Schools Violent Crime Research Group, which uses all
the data from ER and Hospital Admissions at major hospitals
through out England and Wales.

As for other crimes such as burgulary/ robbery you can't get
an insurance payment with out a crime number issued
by the police - so I should imagine there is a high level
of reporting. Don't report and you don't get the insurance cash
simple as that.

Also victims of violent crime are
eligiable for a cash payout by the Criminal Injuries
Compensation Authority in the UK (again the crime would
have to be reported to the police)

https://www.cica.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=115,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

[antonio62]

Ardent wrote: antonio62 wrote: Ardent wrote: Firstly the UN Study suggested that it was Scotland and not England and Wales that had higher levels of violence - (btw it's better if you use a link that actually works)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

The UN Study is absoloute rubbish and relied on 2000 phone calls, it doesn't tally with Cardiff University Medical Schools Hospital Admission research, BMA Findings, the British Crime Survey or the police recorded figures. The UN figure is 10 times the number recorded in official police figures and also is much greater than the far more comprehensive British Crime Survey (which is carried out annually)


As I have already pointed out the UK had 46 gun murders last year compared to over 10,000 in the US. Both gun crime and murder rates have fallen for several years in the UK, whilst murder and violent crime have risen sharply in the US.

According to the police (england and wales) recorded crime figures there were a total of 21,513 offences of serious violence recorded by the police in 2004/05. This represents a decrease of 105 offences from the previous year. Given that this includes homocides, serious assaults and other misc crimes it is not much higher than the total of 17,000 homocides alone which occur in the US.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page39.asp

Serious violence comprises of the offences of homicide, attempted murder, child destruction, causing death by dangerous driving, serious wounding or other act endangering life and endangering a railway passenger.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

Philadelphia for instance has a 1.5 million population and had 384 homicides last year compared to 80 in Scotland a country with a 5 million population.

Street Robbery is not any worse in the UK than in it is in America, as a nation we had about 90,000 last year compared to more than 500,000 accorsing to the US NCVS (figures posted above)

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page21.asp

Also even the NYPD's Police Federation (union) is questioning the way the crime statistics are being manipulated and it's not just New York there have been crime figure scandals in other US Cities.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0544,moses,69552,5.html


This was a different UN study as the link it was taken from is from 2003.

The US murder rate has been in freefall. The UK gun crime rate has always been small and was smaller when guns were legal. It may be fallling but it is still higher than when they were legal which shows guns stop crime not cause it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

Here's the working link.

What another UN Study based on 2000 phone calls and doesn't tally with either the BMA Figures and Cardiff Med School figures regarding violent crime, the British Crime Survey figures or the police recorded crime figures.

Gun deaths in the UK fell 40% last year from 73 to 46, while murders have fallen over the last three or four years.

Simple assaults (common asasault) aren't even recorded in the US Crime figures - the NCVS puts them at 3,500,000, verbal harrasement isn't recorded and nor are most minor woundings. Only felonies are reported on the UCR figures (aggravated assaults). 50% of UK violent crime involves no injury, and violent crime in the UK has been over reported as since 1998 one offence is now counted as multiple offences - coupled with double counting for the same offence. Whilst the police in places like NY under the Mayors guidance have refused to release full figures and have downgraded crimes in order to meet quotas.

Btw violent crime in America and murders are not in free fall any more.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

As for crime per capita figures as I have already explained the US has five times the population. UK = 60 Million USA = 300 Million.

If the UK was to imprison the same percentage of our population we would have 420,000 people in our prisons and not 85,000.

Violent Crime - UK



Common Assault is not recorded in the US and results in
no injury. Harrasement is verbal and involves no injury,
a large percentage of wounding involves black eyes and
minor injuries - which would not be felonies in the US.

Finally the vast majority of robberies involve mobile phones
etc and do not result in any violent injury, whilst the section
classed as Other (6%) includes dangerous driving, putting passengers
lives at risk on a train or ship and lots of other bizzare criteria.

There were 21,000 Serious Assaults against the person recorded by
the police in 2004 and this is actually falling

Commmon assault may not be recorded by I don't see why that is relevent as what I said was comparing each individual crime not taking voilvent crime as a whole. You have yet to offer any expalnation for why Britain has higher crime rates in areas yet we have nog guns. You have also yet to explain why British crime figures are higher than when guns were legal.

[Ardent]

antonio62 wrote: Ardent wrote: antonio62 wrote: Ardent wrote: Firstly the UN Study suggested that it was Scotland and not England and Wales that had higher levels of violence - (btw it's better if you use a link that actually works)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

The UN Study is absoloute rubbish and relied on 2000 phone calls, it doesn't tally with Cardiff University Medical Schools Hospital Admission research, BMA Findings, the British Crime Survey or the police recorded figures. The UN figure is 10 times the number recorded in official police figures and also is much greater than the far more comprehensive British Crime Survey (which is carried out annually)


As I have already pointed out the UK had 46 gun murders last year compared to over 10,000 in the US. Both gun crime and murder rates have fallen for several years in the UK, whilst murder and violent crime have risen sharply in the US.

According to the police (england and wales) recorded crime figures there were a total of 21,513 offences of serious violence recorded by the police in 2004/05. This represents a decrease of 105 offences from the previous year. Given that this includes homocides, serious assaults and other misc crimes it is not much higher than the total of 17,000 homocides alone which occur in the US.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page39.asp

Serious violence comprises of the offences of homicide, attempted murder, child destruction, causing death by dangerous driving, serious wounding or other act endangering life and endangering a railway passenger.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

Philadelphia for instance has a 1.5 million population and had 384 homicides last year compared to 80 in Scotland a country with a 5 million population.

Street Robbery is not any worse in the UK than in it is in America, as a nation we had about 90,000 last year compared to more than 500,000 accorsing to the US NCVS (figures posted above)

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page21.asp

Also even the NYPD's Police Federation (union) is questioning the way the crime statistics are being manipulated and it's not just New York there have been crime figure scandals in other US Cities.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0544,moses,69552,5.html


This was a different UN study as the link it was taken from is from 2003.

The US murder rate has been in freefall. The UK gun crime rate has always been small and was smaller when guns were legal. It may be fallling but it is still higher than when they were legal which shows guns stop crime not cause it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

Here's the working link.

What another UN Study based on 2000 phone calls and doesn't tally with either the BMA Figures and Cardiff Med School figures regarding violent crime, the British Crime Survey figures or the police recorded crime figures.

Gun deaths in the UK fell 40% last year from 73 to 46, while murders have fallen over the last three or four years.

Simple assaults (common asasault) aren't even recorded in the US Crime figures - the NCVS puts them at 3,500,000, verbal harrasement isn't recorded and nor are most minor woundings. Only felonies are reported on the UCR figures (aggravated assaults). 50% of UK violent crime involves no injury, and violent crime in the UK has been over reported as since 1998 one offence is now counted as multiple offences - coupled with double counting for the same offence. Whilst the police in places like NY under the Mayors guidance have refused to release full figures and have downgraded crimes in order to meet quotas.

Btw violent crime in America and murders are not in free fall any more.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm

As for crime per capita figures as I have already explained the US has five times the population. UK = 60 Million USA = 300 Million.

If the UK was to imprison the same percentage of our population we would have 420,000 people in our prisons and not 85,000.

Violent Crime - UK



Common Assault is not recorded in the US and results in
no injury. Harrasement is verbal and involves no injury,
a large percentage of wounding involves black eyes and
minor injuries - which would not be felonies in the US.

Finally the vast majority of robberies involve mobile phones
etc and do not result in any violent injury, whilst the section
classed as Other (6%) includes dangerous driving, putting passengers
lives at risk on a train or ship and lots of other bizzare criteria.

There were 21,000 Serious Assaults against the person recorded by
the police in 2004 and this is actually falling

Commmon assault may not be recorded by I don't see why that is relevent as what I said was comparing each individual crime not taking voilvent crime as a whole. You have yet to offer any expalnation for why Britain has higher crime rates in areas yet we have nog guns. You have also yet to explain why British crime figures are higher than when guns were legal.

Guns have never been legal here, you were never allowed to walk the streets with a loaded gun or had a right to bear arms.

Crime here has fallen to very low levels and no we don't have higher crime than the US thats a complete myth.

If you take violent crime as a whole the NCVS in America shows figures of 3.5 million simple (common) assaults and over one million serious aggrevated assaults.

Not having guns here has meant that gun deaths and murders, the most serious crimes of all are far lower than in the US.

[leftneckredwing]

Ardent wrote: Guns have never been legal here, you were never allowed to walk the streets with a loaded gun or had a right to bear arms.

Crime here has fallen to very low levels and no we don't have higher crime than the US thats a complete myth.

If you take violent crime as a whole the NCVS in America shows figures of 3.5 million simple (common) assaults and over one million serious aggrevated assaults.

Not having guns here has meant that gun deaths and murders, the most serious crimes of all are far lower than in the US.

So the minute guns were invented England passed laws forbidding ownership? Unlikely. Until something is against the law, even though it may not be a legislated right, one can do it.

At this time, terrorism is being considered as the worst crime. And England has certainly had it's share of that. Way, WAY more than the US.

[Ardent]

leftneckredwing wrote: Ardent wrote: Guns have never been legal here, you were never allowed to walk the streets with a loaded gun or had a right to bear arms.

Crime here has fallen to very low levels and no we don't have higher crime than the US thats a complete myth.

If you take violent crime as a whole the NCVS in America shows figures of 3.5 million simple (common) assaults and over one million serious aggrevated assaults.

Not having guns here has meant that gun deaths and murders, the most serious crimes of all are far lower than in the US.

So the minute guns were invented England passed laws forbidding ownership? Unlikely. Until something is against the law, even though it may not be a legislated right, one can do it.

At this time, terrorism is being considered as the worst crime. And England has certainly had it's share of that. Way, WAY more than the US.

Firstly given that 3000 people died in 9/11 and that there have been a further two and a half thousand US Soldiers killed fighting terrorists, plus attacks on US Embassies and even the US Warship USS Cole, I would say America has had way way more of it's share of terrorism than the UK.

Secondly guns were allowed in the UK during the middle ages and beyond but this coincided with one of the most violent periods in British history.

The streets of Shakespeares London were far more violent than today, even the London of the 17th Century with it's gin soaked streets and epidemic alcoholism were far more violent. The streets of Victorian London brought to life in the books of Charles Dickens were also often extremely violent places.

Historically London has had many more violent periods when guns were more easily available. However violent related crime is often related more to the price of drink, economic prosperity and in more recent years the rise of illegal drugs than any other factors.

A famous art work showing the Gin-Soaked streets
of London in 1751.

[leftneckredwing]

Ardent wrote: leftneckredwing wrote: Ardent wrote: Guns have never been legal here, you were never allowed to walk the streets with a loaded gun or had a right to bear arms.

Crime here has fallen to very low levels and no we don't have higher crime than the US thats a complete myth.

If you take violent crime as a whole the NCVS in America shows figures of 3.5 million simple (common) assaults and over one million serious aggrevated assaults.

Not having guns here has meant that gun deaths and murders, the most serious crimes of all are far lower than in the US.

So the minute guns were invented England passed laws forbidding ownership? Unlikely. Until something is against the law, even though it may not be a legislated right, one can do it.

At this time, terrorism is being considered as the worst crime. And England has certainly had it's share of that. Way, WAY more than the US.

Firstly given that 3000 people died in 9/11 and that there have been a further two and a half thousand US Soldiers killed fighting terrorists, plus attacks on US Embassies and even the US Warship USS Cole, I would say America has had way way more of it's share of terrorism than the UK.

Secondly guns were allowed in the UK during the middle ages and beyond but this coincided with one of the most violent periods in British history.

The streets of Shakespeares London were far more violent than today, even the London of the 17th Century with it's gin soaked streets and epidemic alcoholism were far more violent. The streets of Victorian London brought to life in the books of Charles Dickens were also often extremely violent places.

Historically London has had many more violent periods when guns were more easily available. However violent related crime is often related more to the price of drink, economic prosperity and in more recent years the rise of illegal drugs than any other factors.

The US has had 2 foreign attacks, one big domestic attack and a number of smaller ones, like the unabomber. And of course Iraq and Afghanistan. But those are on foreign soil.

Are you trying to say England has not had far more terrorist attacks than the US?

I read a book once, it may have been a novel, but in the novel it described how the poor alcoholics in London would hold a can for people to pee in and get alcohol that way. Can that possibly be true? It sounds far fetched, but anything is possible.

I'm reasonably well read on some English history, but not well enough, I admit.

[Ardent]

leftneckredwing wrote: Ardent wrote: leftneckredwing wrote: Ardent wrote: Guns have never been legal here, you were never allowed to walk the streets with a loaded gun or had a right to bear arms.

Crime here has fallen to very low levels and no we don't have higher crime than the US thats a complete myth.

If you take violent crime as a whole the NCVS in America shows figures of 3.5 million simple (common) assaults and over one million serious aggrevated assaults.

Not having guns here has meant that gun deaths and murders, the most serious crimes of all are far lower than in the US.

So the minute guns were invented England passed laws forbidding ownership? Unlikely. Until something is against the law, even though it may not be a legislated right, one can do it.

At this time, terrorism is being considered as the worst crime. And England has certainly had it's share of that. Way, WAY more than the US.

Firstly given that 3000 people died in 9/11 and that there have been a further two and a half thousand US Soldiers killed fighting terrorists, plus attacks on US Embassies and even the US Warship USS Cole, I would say America has had way way more of it's share of terrorism than the UK.

Secondly guns were allowed in the UK during the middle ages and beyond but this coincided with one of the most violent periods in British history.

The streets of Shakespeares London were far more violent than today, even the London of the 17th Century with it's gin soaked streets and epidemic alcoholism were far more violent. The streets of Victorian London brought to life in the books of Charles Dickens were also often extremely violent places.

Historically London has had many more violent periods when guns were more easily available. However violent related crime is often related more to the price of drink, economic prosperity and in more recent years the rise of illegal drugs than any other factors.

The US has had 2 foreign attacks, one big domestic attack and a number of smaller ones, like the unabomber. And of course Iraq and Afghanistan. But those are on foreign soil.

Are you trying to say England has not had far more terrorist attacks than the US?

I read a book once, it may have been a novel, but in the novel it described how the poor alcoholics in London would hold a can for people to pee in and get alcohol that way. Can that possibly be true? It sounds far fetched, but anything is possible.

I'm reasonably well read on some English history, but not well enough, I admit.

There have been more terrorist attacks on the UK, however nothing of the
magnitude of 9/11. The 30 years of troubles in Northern Ireland led to the loss of 3500 lives, compare that to 3000 in one day.

As for holding cups out for people to pee in, I am not sure about that, but the baby incident in the picture was based on an actual case.

The cheap price of gin saw a surge in alcoholism and violence in London, and it was not until the price of Gin was substantially increased by Parliament that the problems began to abate.

The same is true today, the rise of superpubs, cut price drinks and the relative economic prosperity (money in peoples pockets) has led to an increase in low level violence in our towns and cities. However much of this violence is merely young men having too much to drink and ending up fighting over a girl or some petty dispute.

It is interesting to note than at times of economic prosperity and when alcohol consumption is higher then violent crime rises and the opposite effect happens during recession.

Serious Violent Crime is however declining, and most of the UK Violent Crime figures actually relate to low level disorder.

[antonio62]

Ardent wrote: Guns have never been legal here, you were never allowed to walk the streets with a loaded gun or had a right to bear arms.

Crime here has fallen to very low levels and no we don't have higher crime than the US thats a complete myth.

If you take violent crime as a whole the NCVS in America shows figures of 3.5 million simple (common) assaults and over one million serious aggrevated assaults.

Not having guns here has meant that gun deaths and murders, the most serious crimes of all are far lower than in the US.

You were allowed to own all guns and wlak the streets with them. The gun crime rate rose after the banning although they are falling now. When guns were legal we had the same comparitive murder rate as the US as we do now so gun legalisation isn't the reason we have a lower murder. If America's rate is so much lower explain all of these. I could look out more if you want.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita#rest

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_the_percap-crime-car-thefts-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_vic-crime-assault-victims

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=O2PKRSGCZIESBQFIQMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/09/13/ncrim13.xml

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=513031

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

[Ardent]

antonio62 wrote: Ardent wrote: Guns have never been legal here, you were never allowed to walk the streets with a loaded gun or had a right to bear arms.

Crime here has fallen to very low levels and no we don't have higher crime than the US thats a complete myth.

If you take violent crime as a whole the NCVS in America shows figures of 3.5 million simple (common) assaults and over one million serious aggrevated assaults.

Not having guns here has meant that gun deaths and murders, the most serious crimes of all are far lower than in the US.

You were allowed to own all guns and wlak the streets with them. The gun crime rate rose after the banning although they are falling now. When guns were legal we had the same comparitive murder rate as the US as we do now so gun legalisation isn't the reason we have a lower murder. If America's rate is so much lower explain all of these. I could look out more if you want.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita#rest

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_the_percap-crime-car-thefts-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_vic-crime-assault-victims

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=O2PKRSGCZIESBQFIQMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/09/13/ncrim13.xml

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=513031

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

Gun restrictions were first brought in to being in 1903, further gun restrictions were introduced in the 1920's and a ban on owning a gun for purely self defence reasons was introduced in 1946.

Violent Crime was extremely high prior to gun laws, even in Shakespeares time London was a more violent place than it is now, and
Dickensian London was little better. Violent crime figures are patchy beyond the 20th Century, but there were many violent periods in British history when guns were much more obtainable. Guns have never been legal to carry on the streets in post war Britain.

As for the UN Figures you keep spouting, I have already disputed them in previous posts and I am tired of seeing them. See my previous posts regarding the UN Figures.

NATIONMASTER SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

The BCS shows a substantial fall in violent crime and unlike other surveys it's statistics are backed up by hospital admissions and hospital casualty departments studied by Cardiff Medical Schools Violence Research Group.

There has been a drop in violent crime admissions by over 20% since 2000.

As I have already said people with violent crime injuries will contact the police in order to meet criminal injuries compensation rules - a sum of money which can be between £1000 ($2000) for more minor injuries and
£250,000 ($500,000) for more serious injuries.

As for The Telegraph article Blair was criticised for using one months figures rather than the figures over a longer period relating to the previous summer.

Your map is equally hilarious showing Iceland as having the highest rate of crime on earth, as well as New Zealand and Norway. More work from the UN me thinks.

Btw crime per 1000 in England and Wales is actually around 26 per 1000 according to official figures and not the UN's 85 per 1000 (more than three times the figure)

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/tool/

[RooK]

More than gun laws has changes since Shakespeare's time. I think you give too much credence to gun laws and not other laws or factors. The crime rate drop in after '94 in the US wasn't due to the AWB, but the bill contained it. It contained a lot of new laws for criminals and how they should be treated an was dubbed the LE Protection Act of 1994. The laws, aside from the gun ban, were good and had good effects.

[Ardent]

RooK wrote: More than gun laws has changes since Shakespeare's time. I think you give too much credence to gun laws and not other laws or factors. The crime rate drop in after '94 in the US wasn't due to the AWB, but the bill contained it. It contained a lot of new laws for criminals and how they should be treated an was dubbed the LE Protection Act of 1994. The laws, aside from the gun ban, were good and had good effects.

I have actually cited alcohol and it's consumption linked to it's price and economic conditions as a major factor when considering violent crime in the UK.