Political Crossfire Forums

[battleax86]

Mr.Bill wrote: There are a zillion opinions and theories with any historical event. And thats fine. But this theory that the USSR was going to attack Germany is farfetched at best. Stalin was scared to death of a war with Germany, his constant ignoring of Britian's warnings of a German attack is proof enough. He didn't want to provoke Germany lt alone attack her.
Stalin was not a stupid man. I doubt that he ignored the warnings, which came from not only Britain, but the American government and Soviet agents in Japan, Germany, and Switzerland. The problem was that Russia wasn't yet ready for the war. Stalin wasn't afraid of Germany so much as he was afraid that they would use some pretext to attack him before he was ready to attack them.

[Trajan]

The question asked is not a simple one. I could answer it, but it would require a huge amount of typing. Pages worth.

Read "Stumbling Colossus" by David Glantz.

[Freemason]

Actually - to answer the question - the reason is because Stalin was a retard.

Stalin actually believed that he would NEVER be attacked by Hitler - so when Hitler attacked Stalin was still in the middle of his purges.

So most of the officer corps was devestated to the point that most of the officers had not even completed their training when they were thrown into war.

All the seasoned soldiers and officers from WWI and the War in Spain (Where the Soviets had beaten soundly the Germans) had been killed by Stalin's purges.

[Freemason]

battleax86 wrote: Mr.Bill wrote: There are a zillion opinions and theories with any historical event. And thats fine. But this theory that the USSR was going to attack Germany is farfetched at best. Stalin was scared to death of a war with Germany, his constant ignoring of Britian's warnings of a German attack is proof enough. He didn't want to provoke Germany lt alone attack her.
Stalin was not a stupid man. I doubt that he ignored the warnings, which came from not only Britain, but the American government and Soviet agents in Japan, Germany, and Switzerland. The problem was that Russia wasn't yet ready for the war. Stalin wasn't afraid of Germany so much as he was afraid that they would use some pretext to attack him before he was ready to attack them.

He did ignore the warnings and had close relations with Hitler - when Britain and America warned him he scoffed and told Hitler they had said he would attack.

Hitler's accounts with his Generals confirms that they were taken aback by the trust-worthy nature of Stalin.

But again - Stalin had entered a paranoid-delusional fantasy world where his biggest threat came from his own officers and closest friends more than from a man who wanted to kill and enslave all the Slavs.

[lordaltay]

I am not sure if anyone has said this yet but here we go --

During the early stages of the invasion of the USSR, *many* people living under communist rule were unhappy and actually looked at the Germans as liberators!

I know this because many of my family are from a part of the former Soviet Union and actually JOINED the German army as it invaded Russia!

There is no doubt in my mind that had the Germans treated the Russian people better, they would of defeated Stalin. But because of their racism they looked at the Russians and other groups in the Soviet Union as inferior and eventually the masses decided to die for their country rather then an invader, hating both Hitler and Stalin/Communism.

Interestingly, I have a distant family member who was with the German army when they were just 50 or so miles from Moscow and he could see the outline of the city. Always interesting to hear about these events from those who wittnessed them.

[philm]

Have to agree with "johnshotme".
Hitler took on too much too soon.
Had he instead of invading the Balkans, then Russia in the same year! concentrated his resources on the Atlantic War and especially on the Meditterean/North African theatre the outcome of the war could have been so different.
Taking the Suez, would not only have practically split the British Empire in two, but would have opened up the Middle-East with it's huge oil reservoirs AND given the Germans another point of attack against the Soviets.
The nature of the Soviet State also gave the Germans political opportunities that the idealogicaly extremist Nazi leadership was perhaps too unsophisticated to realize. A more considered policy with respect to the local population, coupled with the superior quality of German troops, tactics leadership etc AND an invasion that happened early spring, not mid-summer may have had completely different consequences.
As it is, I think we all thank our respective dieties that Hitler, though undoubtably a political genius, was a military buffoon.

[battleax86]

Freemason wrote: Actually - to answer the question - the reason is because Stalin was a retard.

Stalin actually believed that he would NEVER be attacked by Hitler - so when Hitler attacked Stalin was still in the middle of his purges.

So most of the officer corps was devestated to the point that most of the officers had not even completed their training when they were thrown into war.

All the seasoned soldiers and officers from WWI and the War in Spain (Where the Soviets had beaten soundly the Germans) had been killed by Stalin's purges.
Your history is a bit off. The Soviets got their asses handed to them by the Germans and other fascist forces in Spain. While it's true that Stalin's purges took out most of the officers who had gained their experience in that war, Stalin's purges were finished by around 1938. By 1941, the officers had completed their training (except for the new ones coming in, of course) and the army was not too far away from being able to launch a war on its own.

Freemason wrote: He did ignore the warnings and had close relations with Hitler - when Britain and America warned him he scoffed and told Hitler they had said he would attack.

Hitler's accounts with his Generals confirms that they were taken aback by the trust-worthy nature of Stalin.

But again - Stalin had entered a paranoid-delusional fantasy world where his biggest threat came from his own officers and closest friends more than from a man who wanted to kill and enslave all the Slavs.
Again, where do you get this information from? By the time the Germans attacked, there was already considerable tension between the Soviets and the Germans (in spite of their official friendship) and Stalin believed war was inevitable. However, he was not ready to attack just yet and believed that the American and British warnings were fabricated out of hopes that the Soviets would join the war against Germany.

[Snake]

I feel that the Russians did it on purpose. Drag them in, then surround them. The Germans never had any chance to defeat Russia, it's too large to be sucsessfully invaded.

[violethunter]

The reason was that soviet army been preparing an offense. Hitler stated that himself many times, as well as documents declaring preventive war on USSR, which were handed to USSR officials early morning 22st june 1941 in Berlin and Moscow. At Nurnberg in 1946 soviets declined there were any documents given, however nowadays official historians confirm they existed.

What happened in history was worst possible scenario for USSR, yet Stalin still got half of Europe into his posession in the end. Red army was never taught anything but offensive operations, and never had any defensive plans developed prior to june 1941. He knew blitzkrieg against USSR would be impossible due to vast space and superior population, and most importantly, because Germany was not ready for such a war, had not enough oil, tanks, support, was not enough motorized, as major supply power in Wermacht were horse trucks.

What else explains why Hitler ordered attack? Did he have not enough land conquered already? Britain was still a major threat, and everybody in the world believed by may 1941 that Germany had major trouble dealing with them alone, as they were supported by "neutral" US. Wasn't whole Europe not enough for 3rd Reich, for example France with it's wine and azure beaches, and beautiful women? Weren't there rampant guerilla war going in Jugoslavia, keeping over 800.000 german groops busy? Why would he want to conquer Russia, with all it's unpleasant climate and having Red Army as an opponent, which had 5 million army of PEACE time, and ready to mobilize another 5 millions shortly (which was done by the end of 1941) ?

I'd also would like to remind Red Army had around 20000 tanks opposed to 4000, and 3x more planes than Wermacht, most of which were superior to what Hitler could spare for that campaign. Soviet artillery was more numerous and one of the best in the world, while over half of what Wermacht used been produced before/during WW1. Army that went thru Finnish war in 1939-40, and had some experience of fighting in utterly severe conditions (40 degrees above zero in extremely harsh northern landscape and superb defense finns were developing for over a decade). While Red Army usially gets laughed at as they lost over 250000 soldiers in that war, what Wermacht had in winter of 1941-42 was not nearly as bad as terrain around Moscow does not have 100's of never freezing lakes where it's impossible to deploy tanks or supply.

Anyone who is not brainwashed enough can read more about world's situation in first half of 1941, and will clearly see Hitler was either complete imbecile, or he simply had no other chance than to order an assault on USSR, knowing this is the only way to save Reich against complete devastation, as if soviets attacked first, Germany would be destroyed in some months if not weeks.

[towelhead]

It had little to do with the element of surprise. As early as 1939 Stalin predicted that a war between Nazi German and USSR would break out within 10 or so years. USSR was not ready for war with Germany in 1939 (mainly because it had no or little backing from western powers and because its industry was in a poor state). Thats why the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact was signed. It was supposed to give the soviets time to make necessary military preps. Also the German foreign policy was openly anti-slavic and German army had long before summer 1941 been performing military manoevres along the russian border.
The reasons for Soviet defeats in the early stages of the war are as follows: underestimation of the effectiveness of blitzkrieg tactics, poor logistics and communication, the ukrainians, bielorussians, lithuanians, latvians and estonians were not too eager to defend Russia.

[wildchild]

Yes, they are so many of those ones, but as I think the greatest reson was Stalin, who messacred 30% of russian Army offisers in 1937-38,
and (this is just my opinion) Soviet Russia waspreparing for agressive war against Hitler's Germani and has concetrted huge power on the border wich as well known were surrauded and largely destroid in june -august 1941.
I sow the replic about USA, with all of my respect to American soldiers have died for freedom of the World, States did not openly fought against Germany or Japen antill Perl Hurbour tragedy. USSR was alone against Hitler's perfect war mashine.
Sorry for my broken English

[Mr.Bill]

Quote: Reich against complete devastation, as if soviets attacked first, Germany would be destroyed in some months if not weeks.

Hitler wanted 'living space', and he thought the Slavs were sub human. He thought Britain was finished and he saw how pitiful the Red Army looked against the Finnish.

I don't think he was worried that Stalin was going to attack. Hitler's warped mind saw an easy victory. He was wrong.

[The Russian]

Actually, as someone who lived in USSR, Belarussia to be specific, there are certain things to take into consideration. Belarussia was the first land invaded by the germans in their march into USSR, my grandfather served in the war as a combat medic, later to become head of a major soviet hospital, and these are the things he told me...

problems:

1) The leadership was afraid to do anything without Stalins orders, and when those orders didnt come after Hitler invaded (it was later proved Stalin was in disbelief and almost killed the officer who told him) nobody knew what to do. Afterwords stalin locked himself up in his summer cottage and refused to hear it till a group of officers came in demanding he do something. He was a paranoid schizophrenic who could believe in many thins blindly, it would be as hard to prove to him that Hitler had invaded as it would be to show him that his policies of mass slaughter and traveling courts were wrong. They didnt have orders until hundreds of thousands were already dead.

2) The supplies were not there... the USSR started out the conflict having less weapons, ammunition, artillery, tanks and planes than Germany, just like Napoleon's invasion. Not surprisingly, the lack of ammunition caused an unusually large swell of snipers in the soviet service. So much that by the end of the war they took the worlds highest sniper kills mark, and the top individual sniper ranks.

3) Once the war policy was instated and soviets began their re-assembly inward, all fields of grain and any farm products were burned, leaving thousands who didnt migrate to starve at the same time as the germans whose supply lines ran thin, were constantly under attack by soviet guerrillas, and at best, froze over.

4) The majority of the people in the country had never experienced war or worked with the kind of machinery that modern war required, despite the conflict with Finland which was only with a tiny fraction of soviet soldiers. To put it simply, people didnt use guns for anything more than hunting, and almost no-one drove cars. Combining this with the tactics of no-retreat created massive casualties.


All of this is overturned once the soviet war machine kicked into gear... those superior tanks, the T-34s you're talking about were produced much after the invasion... and so were the Mosin-Nagats, SVT40s and other automatic weapons... the Nagat would go on to inspire the creation of the Dragunov sniper rifle, the worlds first military rifle designed specifically for snipers. By the end of the war the statistics reversed themselves, the USSR had manufactured so much war-time machinery that it became cheap to own after the war and easily bought from surplus, just like tanks are now still bought by citizens from russian surplus as alternatives to tractors, bulldozers, or transport in regions where roads are not paved or cleared in winter. Most of the experienced soviet generals were baptized by fire during the conflict rather than training, because of the massive purges, and by the end of the war managed to completely run germany out of Russia and sack berlin before it was reached by the allies from normandy shores. Later to go on to crush the japanese in manchuria and cut them off from all their metal supplies... later quoted by Japanese historians as a bigger blow to the japanese war-machine and moral than the atom bomb, but were never credited for it during the US pacific victory campaigning because of the cold war... this was known as operation August Storm, and it was executed between the two nuke drops, when the USSR swore to help the US if Japan didnt surrender after the first nuke, and they did, and yet were never credited because of ppl like McCarthy. The contingency plan in case Japan didnt surrender after the 2nd nuke was for a normandy-style Soviet-US invasion of the japanese mainland to be launched off soviet captured manchurian japanese bases and coast.

Nobody gives Russians and or Soviets the credit they deserved, and it is all a part of the same mentality from the pompous asses of Europe who'd now be speaking german if it wasnt for us. This mentality plagues western europe as they've looked down on us and dehumanized us since the middle ages, and enslaved our ppl. Till we became the largest military in the world and won the space race before any european country even developed a rocket, sans germany.

[Mr.Bill]

Quote: and by the end of the war managed to completely run germany out of Russia and sack berlin before it was reached by the allies from normandy shores.

Many points you make are good points. However the allies never intended to take Berlin. The big 3(FDR, Churchill, Stalin) already divided Germany into zones and since Berlin was in the Russian zone Ike and FDR/Truman saw no use in taking Berlin and then having to turn it over to the Russians anyway.

[battleax86]

The Russian wrote: Later to go on to crush the japanese in manchuria and cut them off from all their metal supplies... later quoted by Japanese historians as a bigger blow to the japanese war-machine and moral than the atom bomb, but were never credited for it during the US pacific victory campaigning because of the cold war... this was known as operation August Storm, and it was executed between the two nuke drops, when the USSR swore to help the US if Japan didnt surrender after the first nuke, and they did, and yet were never credited because of ppl like McCarthy.
You've bought too much into the Soviet propaganda. August Storm only began between the atomic bomb drops. It did not come close to being a Soviet victory until after the decision to surrender had already been made.

The Russian wrote: The contingency plan in case Japan didnt surrender after the 2nd nuke was for a normandy-style Soviet-US invasion of the japanese mainland to be launched off soviet captured manchurian japanese bases and coast.
The American contingency plan was to keep dropping nukes, not invade. We had a rather long target list and would not have had to invade until the Japanese had refused to surrender after several more bombings.

The Russian wrote: Nobody gives Russians and or Soviets the credit they deserved, and it is all a part of the same mentality from the pompous asses of Europe who'd now be speaking german if it wasnt for us. This mentality plagues western europe as they've looked down on us and dehumanized us since the middle ages, and enslaved our ppl. Till we became the largest military in the world and won the space race before any european country even developed a rocket.
Speaking German if it wasn't for you? Won the space race? What the hell are you smoking? :rotf:

[Mr.Bill]

Quote: Speaking German if it wasn't for you?

Thats another point of argument. Historians love to point out all of Hitler's mistake during WW II. If he did this or didn't do that all of Europe would be speaking German. One thing many forget. Even if Russia fell or Hitler made less mistakes Germany would have still lost the war in August 1945.

[battleax86]

Mr.Bill wrote: Quote: Speaking German if it wasn't for you?

Thats another point of argument. Historians love to point out all of Hitler's mistake during WW II. If he did this or didn't do that all of Europe would be speaking German. One thing many forget. Even if Russia fell or Hitler made less mistakes Germany would have still lost the war in August 1945.
True.

[Jari]

In the beginning of the war (winter war 39-40) red army was old fashioned, for instance they couldn't communicate with hand signals, such a thing didn't exist. I mean when you have to shout your orders in battlefield you reveile your position quite easily. Also the red army officers were known to shoot their own soldiers on the spot for whatever reasons. They improved their methods quickly tough and by the time they were against germans they were better. The germans on the other hand thought they were against poor opponent from the performance of winter war. They were wrong.

[The Russian]

Quote: Many points you make are good points. However the allies never intended to take Berlin. The big 3(FDR, Churchill, Stalin) already divided Germany into zones and since Berlin was in the Russian zone Ike and FDR/Truman saw no use in taking Berlin and then having to turn it over to the Russians anyway.

Nope, there was a famous race to berlin. Soviet general Georgy Zhukov was the general to have soldiers in Berlin first. General Dwight Eisenhower was unable to reach Berlin first, due to the failure of Operation Market Garden, which forced a further delay in troop movements. The allies wanted to get to Hitler and the Reich's leaders held up in Berlin first, just like the german scientists.

Quote: You've bought too much into the Soviet propaganda. August Storm only began between the atomic bomb drops. It did not come close to being a Soviet victory until after the decision to surrender had already been made.

No comrad, it is you who have bought into the anti-soviet propaganda. Check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm ... and I quote: Quote: Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings themselves were not the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, he contends, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories on the mainland in the week following Stalin's August 8 declaration of war that forced the Japanese message of surrender on August 15, 1945[3] Taken from: Hasegawa, Racing the Enemy ... a Japanese historian, and if I'd suspect anyone of being biased towards a country, the last country Japan would be biased towards is Russia.


Quote: The American contingency plan was to keep dropping nukes, not invade. We had a rather long target list and would not have had to invade until the Japanese had refused to surrender after several more bombings.

Incorrect my friend, the Americans only had two bombs built, there would have been a very large time passage between where they could enrich more uranium.

Quote: Speaking German if it wasn't for you? Won the space race? What the hell are you smoking?

Is that a cucumber in your pants or your anti-russian bias showing? ... how do you think Hitler would have faired if he wasnt in Russia with all of his tank divisions except two when normandy was invaded? and how many resources, generals and men? ... the normandy invasion and subsequent french liberation would have failed. The space race? ... who got the first Satelite, Dog, Man, and Space Station up there?

[violethunter]

Blitzkrieg against USSR was not possible, especially with an army Germany had at that time. It's not that Wermacht was not good enough, its a matter of supplies with oil and weapons. All those legends about old fashioned equipment Red Army had in use are easily beaten if one bothers to actually compare soviet tanks and artillery as well as other weapons to those Wermacht had in it's posession. That's not counting numbers of equipment soviets had alone.
All those myths about stupid Ivans with one Mosin-Nagant rifle per 3 soldiers were inspired by Khrushev in 1956, and are just being repeated mindlessly since then.

As of may 1937, before major purges started, Red Army had 206.000 officers, of which around 40.000 were repressed. However, it does not mean all those 40k were killed, marshal Rokossovsky is a good example, as well as many more. So less than 40000 is hardly "Stalin nearly beheading Red Army", yet this silly myth is also being repeated over and over.

The reason why Red Army was crushed so badly in 1941 was because it's been preparing for offensive, and germans captured most of it's supplies, which were near USSR-Germany borders ready for use in planned soviet operation. When an army suddently loses 75% of its supply, it's hard to retaliate immedeately. Even with that in mind, Germany did not have enough power to conquer USSR.

Barbarossa was stupidest plan in history, it's a hit with fingers spread in to the opponent's face. It may temporarily blind your opponent, but much powerful hit with one's fist may knock your opponent out.