Political Crossfire Forums

[The Comrade]

milo1047 wrote: The Comrade wrote: milo1047 wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: milo1047 wrote: The Russian conscript proved himself to be a tough, capable soldier throughout the course of the war. When the chips were down at Moscow and Stalingrad, they kicked the crap out of the Germans.

The reason being is that if the conscripts ever turned around, they'd be shot by their own commanders.

Also, the Russian conscript was worthless without a gun.

I'd say any soldier was worthless without a gun...

The Russian soldier fought because he blieved in the Great Patriotic War, even if that was so much propaganda. The Russian people were tought and willing throughout the war. "Everything for the Front!" was their motto.

conscripts sometimes weren't even given a gun. it was something like two would get a clip for a mosin nagant and the other would get an actual mosin nagant.


and the germans were incredibly nationalistic, and fighting for survival also(stalingrad and the battle for moscow). they were fighting just as fierce.

The 'two men one gun' thing was only at the very beginning of the war. Once the war economy was in full swing, they ut produced Germany in pretty much everything. Mosin-Nagant rifles are so cheap these days because they made MILLIONS of the things.

yeah like the invasion of berlin they had enough weapons. that hardly seems worthwhile. or effective.

[johnshotme]

LostSoul3412 wrote: You also have to understand the Russian military strategy and mentality of the time:

Strategy: Charge. Keep charging. No retreat. One gun for two people. Keep going. No stopping. You stop, I shoot you.

Mentality: If we lose the battle, it must be the solders' fault... kill them.

If we lose the operation, then it must be the officers' fault... kill them.

What a great army to be in!

[THEXRATED]

There are many books that would answer that question quite well, but those options given as a choice to vote for are astonishingly ignorant.

[Perpetual Futility]

THEXRATED wrote: There are many books that would answer that question quite well, but those options given as a choice to vote for are astonishingly ignorant.

He has a point, they are all leaving out the fact the the russian army was underfed, underclothed, underarmed, and etc. Everything about the communist economy killed the lives of the soldiers.

[Domoviye]

The Soviet Army was in very poor condition at the start of Barbarossa for a variety of reasons.

1. Strategy: The Soviet army was in the 30's training for a fast moving blitzkrieg style of war. But when they sent forces to support the Communists in the Spanish Civil War they were defeated quite handily. This failure made Stalin and the military believe a more fixed style of defense and slow grinding offense was preferable to fast movement. So the large number of tanks that ranged from obsolete to cutting edge were improperly used. They were used in penny packets to support infantry.
Soviet strategy also placed emphasis on defensive tactics, which combined with the refusal to retreat was a recipe for disaster. As the forts and bases were bypassed and cut off the troops were not allowed to retreat. So there were large pockets of resistance which kept many Germans busy behind the lines, but without support or reinforcements these hundreds of thousands of troops were doomed.

2. Purges: After losing the Spanish Civil War Stalin purged most of the officers in the Soviet Army. From lieutenants to generals thousands of trained and experienced leaders were slaughtered. This meant everything they learned in the battles in Spain was lost. The surviving officers were often left with little actual experience and unsure of how to react. If they followed orders and lost they could be killed. If they disobeyed orders and won they may be killed for disobeying. If they disobeyed and lost they would definitely die or be sent to Siberia. With no clear idea of what to do they often did nothing.

3. Stalin's' Disbelief: Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would attack when he did. Stalin thought Hitler would attack a year or two later. Thus any attempts to mobilize was stopped by Stalin. So when Hitler did attack none of the Soviet forces were prepared. This allowed planes to be caught on the ground and destroyed before they could even be started. Soldiers were not prepared for battle, allowing them to be caught by surprise, and munitions were only at a peacetime level.
This was not a total disaster for Russia though. Because the army was not mobilized, the vast majority of conscripts and recruits were not caught in the immediate decimation of the Soviet forces. Even though Germany had captured or killed approximately one million soldiers in the first month, it could have been even worse if the untrained conscripts had been added into the initial defense. Instead the Soviet Army had a steady stream of conscripts available after the initial disaster, which caught the Germans off guard.

4. Incomplete Bases: Russia was in the process of modernizing and building more bases all along the front. Unfortunately they were largely incomplete at the time of Barbarossa. This was particularly noticeable with the air force. Because their camouflaged hangers were still being worked on, most of the Soviet air force were closely lined up in plain site. This made the Luftwaffe's job amazingly easy. A single dive bomber could destroy anywhere from 5 to 10 airplanes in one attack, and the Luftwaffe was attacking in strength all along the border.

5. Lack of Civilian Support: Along the border of Russia the various provinces and nationalities of Non-Russians initially supported Germany. Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Estonians, etc hated the Communists. They didn't actively oppose the Soviet Army but they fed, supplied information to, and helped the German forces as a liberating army. This allowed the Germans to advance a little quicker in the initial attacks. It was only after the SS and the occupation force moved in with orders to enslave, purge, and loot the inferior races that partisans began to operate against the Germans.

6. Pointless Counter Attacks: The Soviet Army was ordered by Stalin throughout the war, but especially at the beginning to counter attack against the Germans. These orders were given to demoralized, understrength, and under supplied forces. Whereas the Germans had been able to attack the Soviet Army when it was stretched along the entire Soviet-German border. Stalin wanted to attacked the concentrated German Armies before his forces had a chance to regroup. This ended in further slaughter of the Soviet forces

These were the main reasons for the defeat of the Soviet forces early in the war, that can be placed entirely on the Soviets. Germany planned its initial offensive with precise objectives and tactics. It was only after the initial successes that Hitler began changing the objectives and slowed the advance down where the Germans ran into serious problems. Remember the Soviets were facing the best army in the world at that time. The Germans army had top quality equipment, and at least until winter rolled in, was well supplied. They were going to be pounded no matter what happened. But with a better understanding of tactics and being fully mobilized the Soviet Army could have saved itself from the enormous losses it suffered at the beginning.

As for this part:
Quote:
He has a point, they are all leaving out the fact the the russian army was underfed, underclothed, underarmed, and etc. Everything about the communist economy killed the lives of the soldiers.
Initially the Soviet Army was none of these things. Their equipment was inferior, and the food was not up to Western Army standards, but initially the Soviet Army in the West was fully armed and supplied. It was after the Soviet Army lost many of its weapons, and saw its army retreating from the preplanned supply lines that they ran into problems. Russia found it lacked the guns and munitions it had at the beginning of the war due to German advances capturing its largest stockpiles, and capturing literally tons of equipment. As Russia tried to recover it had a deficit of weapons compared to conscripts. So the army acted with its cold blooded and inferior idea of sending out two soldiers with one gun. As supply caught up to demand the majority of soldiers eventually received a proper kit and weapons.

[kratos]

Quote: Domoviye wrote

The Soviet Army was in very poor condition at the start of Barbarossa for a variety of reasons.

1. Strategy: The Soviet army was in the 30's training for a fast moving blitzkrieg style of war. But when they sent forces to support the Communists in the Spanish Civil War they were defeated quite handily. This failure made Stalin and the military believe a more fixed style of defense and slow grinding offense was preferable to fast movement. So the large number of tanks that ranged from obsolete to cutting edge were improperly used. They were used in penny packets to support infantry.
Soviet strategy also placed emphasis on defensive tactics, which combined with the refusal to retreat was a recipe for disaster. As the forts and bases were bypassed and cut off the troops were not allowed to retreat. So there were large pockets of resistance which kept many Germans busy behind the lines, but without support or reinforcements these hundreds of thousands of troops were doomed.

2. Purges: After losing the Spanish Civil War Stalin purged most of the officers in the Soviet Army. From lieutenants to generals thousands of trained and experienced leaders were slaughtered. This meant everything they learned in the battles in Spain was lost. The surviving officers were often left with little actual experience and unsure of how to react. If they followed orders and lost they could be killed. If they disobeyed orders and won they may be killed for disobeying. If they disobeyed and lost they would definitely die or be sent to Siberia. With no clear idea of what to do they often did nothing.

3. Stalin's' Disbelief: Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would attack when he did. Stalin thought Hitler would attack a year or two later. Thus any attempts to mobilize was stopped by Stalin. So when Hitler did attack none of the Soviet forces were prepared. This allowed planes to be caught on the ground and destroyed before they could even be started. Soldiers were not prepared for battle, allowing them to be caught by surprise, and munitions were only at a peacetime level.
This was not a total disaster for Russia though. Because the army was not mobilized, the vast majority of conscripts and recruits were not caught in the immediate decimation of the Soviet forces. Even though Germany had captured or killed approximately one million soldiers in the first month, it could have been even worse if the untrained conscripts had been added into the initial defense. Instead the Soviet Army had a steady stream of conscripts available after the initial disaster, which caught the Germans off guard.

4. Incomplete Bases: Russia was in the process of modernizing and building more bases all along the front. Unfortunately they were largely incomplete at the time of Barbarossa. This was particularly noticeable with the air force. Because their camouflaged hangers were still being worked on, most of the Soviet air force were closely lined up in plain site. This made the Luftwaffe's job amazingly easy. A single dive bomber could destroy anywhere from 5 to 10 airplanes in one attack, and the Luftwaffe was attacking in strength all along the border.

5. Lack of Civilian Support: Along the border of Russia the various provinces and nationalities of Non-Russians initially supported Germany. Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Estonians, etc hated the Communists. They didn't actively oppose the Soviet Army but they fed, supplied information to, and helped the German forces as a liberating army. This allowed the Germans to advance a little quicker in the initial attacks. It was only after the SS and the occupation force moved in with orders to enslave, purge, and loot the inferior races that partisans began to operate against the Germans.

6. Pointless Counter Attacks: The Soviet Army was ordered by Stalin throughout the war, but especially at the beginning to counter attack against the Germans. These orders were given to demoralized, understrength, and under supplied forces. Whereas the Germans had been able to attack the Soviet Army when it was stretched along the entire Soviet-German border. Stalin wanted to attacked the concentrated German Armies before his forces had a chance to regroup. This ended in further slaughter of the Soviet forces

These were the main reasons for the defeat of the Soviet forces early in the war, that can be placed entirely on the Soviets. Germany planned its initial offensive with precise objectives and tactics. It was only after the initial successes that Hitler began changing the objectives and slowed the advance down where the Germans ran into serious problems. Remember the Soviets were facing the best army in the world at that time. The Germans army had top quality equipment, and at least until winter rolled in, was well supplied. They were going to be pounded no matter what happened. But with a better understanding of tactics and being fully mobilized the Soviet Army could have saved itself from the enormous losses it suffered at the beginning.

As for this part:
Quote:

He has a point, they are all leaving out the fact the the russian army was underfed, underclothed, underarmed, and etc. Everything about the communist economy killed the lives of the soldiers.

Initially the Soviet Army was none of these things. Their equipment was inferior, and the food was not up to Western Army standards, but initially the Soviet Army in the West was fully armed and supplied. It was after the Soviet Army lost many of its weapons, and saw its army retreating from the preplanned supply lines that they ran into problems. Russia found it lacked the guns and munitions it had at the beginning of the war due to German advances capturing its largest stockpiles, and capturing literally tons of equipment. As Russia tried to recover it had a deficit of weapons compared to conscripts. So the army acted with its cold blooded and inferior idea of sending out two soldiers with one gun. As supply caught up to demand the majority of soldiers eventually received a proper kit and weapons.

You can't get a better answer then Domoviyes . I think though the purges was the major problem because once Barbarossa started no one wanted to step up and organize a well thought defense because of Stalins unrelenting purges. 3 of the 5 Russian marshals were tried and shot. Over 35 000 officers died cause Stalin feared treason. No one wanted to be the next.

[DSwain]

Domoviye wrote: The Soviet Army was in very poor condition at the start of Barbarossa for a variety of reasons.

1. Strategy: The Soviet army was in the 30's training for a fast moving blitzkrieg style of war. But when they sent forces to support the Communists in the Spanish Civil War they were defeated quite handily. This failure made Stalin and the military believe a more fixed style of defense and slow grinding offense was preferable to fast movement. So the large number of tanks that ranged from obsolete to cutting edge were improperly used. They were used in penny packets to support infantry.
Soviet strategy also placed emphasis on defensive tactics, which combined with the refusal to retreat was a recipe for disaster. As the forts and bases were bypassed and cut off the troops were not allowed to retreat. So there were large pockets of resistance which kept many Germans busy behind the lines, but without support or reinforcements these hundreds of thousands of troops were doomed.

2. Purges: After losing the Spanish Civil War Stalin purged most of the officers in the Soviet Army. From lieutenants to generals thousands of trained and experienced leaders were slaughtered. This meant everything they learned in the battles in Spain was lost. The surviving officers were often left with little actual experience and unsure of how to react. If they followed orders and lost they could be killed. If they disobeyed orders and won they may be killed for disobeying. If they disobeyed and lost they would definitely die or be sent to Siberia. With no clear idea of what to do they often did nothing.

3. Stalin's' Disbelief: Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would attack when he did. Stalin thought Hitler would attack a year or two later. Thus any attempts to mobilize was stopped by Stalin. So when Hitler did attack none of the Soviet forces were prepared. This allowed planes to be caught on the ground and destroyed before they could even be started. Soldiers were not prepared for battle, allowing them to be caught by surprise, and munitions were only at a peacetime level.
This was not a total disaster for Russia though. Because the army was not mobilized, the vast majority of conscripts and recruits were not caught in the immediate decimation of the Soviet forces. Even though Germany had captured or killed approximately one million soldiers in the first month, it could have been even worse if the untrained conscripts had been added into the initial defense. Instead the Soviet Army had a steady stream of conscripts available after the initial disaster, which caught the Germans off guard.

4. Incomplete Bases: Russia was in the process of modernizing and building more bases all along the front. Unfortunately they were largely incomplete at the time of Barbarossa. This was particularly noticeable with the air force. Because their camouflaged hangers were still being worked on, most of the Soviet air force were closely lined up in plain site. This made the Luftwaffe's job amazingly easy. A single dive bomber could destroy anywhere from 5 to 10 airplanes in one attack, and the Luftwaffe was attacking in strength all along the border.

5. Lack of Civilian Support: Along the border of Russia the various provinces and nationalities of Non-Russians initially supported Germany. Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Estonians, etc hated the Communists. They didn't actively oppose the Soviet Army but they fed, supplied information to, and helped the German forces as a liberating army. This allowed the Germans to advance a little quicker in the initial attacks. It was only after the SS and the occupation force moved in with orders to enslave, purge, and loot the inferior races that partisans began to operate against the Germans.

6. Pointless Counter Attacks: The Soviet Army was ordered by Stalin throughout the war, but especially at the beginning to counter attack against the Germans. These orders were given to demoralized, understrength, and under supplied forces. Whereas the Germans had been able to attack the Soviet Army when it was stretched along the entire Soviet-German border. Stalin wanted to attacked the concentrated German Armies before his forces had a chance to regroup. This ended in further slaughter of the Soviet forces

These were the main reasons for the defeat of the Soviet forces early in the war, that can be placed entirely on the Soviets. Germany planned its initial offensive with precise objectives and tactics. It was only after the initial successes that Hitler began changing the objectives and slowed the advance down where the Germans ran into serious problems. Remember the Soviets were facing the best army in the world at that time. The Germans army had top quality equipment, and at least until winter rolled in, was well supplied. They were going to be pounded no matter what happened. But with a better understanding of tactics and being fully mobilized the Soviet Army could have saved itself from the enormous losses it suffered at the beginning.

As for this part:
Quote:
He has a point, they are all leaving out the fact the the russian army was underfed, underclothed, underarmed, and etc. Everything about the communist economy killed the lives of the soldiers.
Initially the Soviet Army was none of these things. Their equipment was inferior, and the food was not up to Western Army standards, but initially the Soviet Army in the West was fully armed and supplied. It was after the Soviet Army lost many of its weapons, and saw its army retreating from the preplanned supply lines that they ran into problems. Russia found it lacked the guns and munitions it had at the beginning of the war due to German advances capturing its largest stockpiles, and capturing literally tons of equipment. As Russia tried to recover it had a deficit of weapons compared to conscripts. So the army acted with its cold blooded and inferior idea of sending out two soldiers with one gun. As supply caught up to demand the majority of soldiers eventually received a proper kit and weapons.

Phewee - he gives good answer

[Mr.Bill]

Quote: Stalin's' Disbelief: Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would attack when he did. Stalin thought Hitler would attack a year or two later.


Very important reason. The Brits tried to get Stalin to believe Hitler was going to attack time and time again. Stalin was so affraid of provoking Hitler he, and the Red army did nothing to prepare for the attack.

And the fact that Stalin was, for the most part, an idiot meant the Red Army was totally unprepared.

[foadi]

the soviet union was preparing to invade germany but they got invaded first and were caught off guard.

[Mr.Bill]

foadi wrote: the soviet union was preparing to invade germany but they got invaded first and were caught off guard.

What? :roll: :roll:

[The Comrade]

foadi wrote: the soviet union was preparing to invade germany but they got invaded first and were caught off guard.

stalin never trusted hitler but he was not ready to invade him.

[foadi]

The Comrade wrote: foadi wrote: the soviet union was preparing to invade germany but they got invaded first and were caught off guard.

stalin never trusted hitler but he was not ready to invade him.
no s**t. if he had been ready to invade, he would have invaded

[The Comrade]

foadi wrote: The Comrade wrote: foadi wrote: the soviet union was preparing to invade germany but they got invaded first and were caught off guard.

stalin never trusted hitler but he was not ready to invade him.
no s**t. if he had been ready to invade, he would have invaded


you're assbackwards view of history brings a smile to my face.

what makes you think the soviet union was going to invade germany?

[foadi]

sovunion was an evil empire that needed to be crushed.

[The Comrade]

foadi wrote: sovunion was an evil empire that needed to be crushed.


which is why they were going to invade germany?

[battleax86]

The Comrade wrote: foadi wrote: sovunion was an evil empire that needed to be crushed.


which is why they were going to invade germany?
There's some evidence to suggest that Stalin was planning to attack Germany in the spring of 1942. In May 1941, he gave a speech to new graduates of the Russian Military Academy, where he warned that war with Nazi Germany was inevitable and while the Red Army was poorly equipped and trained, he did not believe that the Germans would attack before winter set in, giving the Soviets until the following spring to build up their forces, at which time they might initiate the war themselves.


Source: Russia Besieged by Nicholas Bethell

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: There's some evidence to suggest that Stalin was planning to attack Germany in the spring of 1942. In May 1941, he gave a speech to new graduates of the Russian Military Academy, where he warned that war with Nazi Germany was inevitable and while the Red Army was poorly equipped and trained, he did not believe that the Germans would attack before winter set in, giving the Soviets until the following spring to build up their forces, at which time they might initiate the war themselves.


I must admit I have never seen that information before. But given his actions earlier with Poland, it makes a lot of sense

[Mr.Bill]

There are a zillion opinions and theories with any historical event. And thats fine. But this theory that the USSR was going to attack Germany is farfetched at best. Stalin was scared to death of a war with Germany, his constant ignoring of Britian's warnings of a German attack is proof enough. He didn't want to provoke Germany lt alone attack her.

[foadi]

The Comrade wrote: foadi wrote: sovunion was an evil empire that needed to be crushed.


which is why they were going to invade germany?
Yes. They wanted to turn the entire world into a Communist slum.

[The Comrade]

foadi wrote: The Comrade wrote: foadi wrote: sovunion was an evil empire that needed to be crushed.


which is why they were going to invade germany?
Yes. They wanted to turn the entire world into a Communist slum.

stalin was afraid of germany.


how often do you attack something you're afraid of?