Political Crossfire Forums

[Girardo]

An inferior German army (in terms of numbers) demolished and ran rings around the Soviet army duirng the first years of the war. Apparently it has been said the quality of Soviet tanks was on a par with, if not better than German tanks and they were about 5 times more numerous.

what was the reasons for this terrible Soviet start??

My synopsis was the element of surprise (made possible by a truly exceptional deception plan on the part of the Germans) coupled with better tactics & better quality, more experienced soliders. Out of the 3 better quality soldiers was the most important out of the 3. Once the Soviets got better from just over a years fighting their soldiers became more experineced and thus improved and their Generals learned more about the ins and outs of modern warfare and began to improve their tactics and strategies.
I dont believe Germans had superior equipment maybe with slight exception of aircraft. and i dont believe the fact that 1 Million+ Soviet troops were left in the East was responsible as Soviets still had vast numerical advantage and these 1M shouldn't have been needed.

[johnshotme]

You forget to take into account the soviet winter and Hilter fighting the Americans and Brits on many other fronts. That played a big role, Hitler was using trains to kill jews when he should have been using them to supply his troops. Germany's army was better then any other army, better training, generals and technology. BUT they took on too much too fast. One lesson Hitler should have known you cant really invade Russia, its too big and can get too cold. So its a combination of mistakes.

[Girardo]

johnshotme wrote: You forget to take into account the soviet winter and Hilter fighting the Americans and Brits on many other fronts. That played a big role, Hitler was using trains to kill jews when he should have been using them to supply his troops. Germany's army was better then any other army, better training, generals and technology. BUT they took on too much too fast. One lesson Hitler should have known you cant really invade Russia, its too big and can get too cold. So its a combination of mistakes.

:rotf:

You've misread the question completely. This question is "Why were the soviets so rubbish in 1st year of war" you've read "what turned the tide of the eastern front war". i havent left anything out cos i didnt ask that question.

[johnshotme]

Girardo wrote: johnshotme wrote: You forget to take into account the soviet winter and Hilter fighting the Americans and Brits on many other fronts. That played a big role, Hitler was using trains to kill jews when he should have been using them to supply his troops. Germany's army was better then any other army, better training, generals and technology. BUT they took on too much too fast. One lesson Hitler should have known you cant really invade Russia, its too big and can get too cold. So its a combination of mistakes.

:rotf:

You've misread the question completely. This question is "Why were the soviets so rubbish in 1st year of war" you've read "what turned the tide of the eastern front war". i havent left anything out cos i didnt ask that question.

ahh yes, sorry about that.

Well if you wanna know why they were rubbish is because they were taken by surprise and werent ready for combat. They werent trained well enough, their technology was not that good and their tactics s*cked. Mixture of them not ready or war and the Germans being very good.

[superskippy]

It's a mix of many of those.

[The Comrade]

the soviets were out numbered, caught by surprise, not mobolized, poorly equipped, poorly trained(as the russian army was largely conscripts).

[thundertaker]

Don't forget the fact that the Officers in the Red Army were purged on a regular basis to get rid of any perceived threat to Stalin's power, which had the effect of paralysing any initiative on the part of the leadership within the Red Army.....

[The Comrade]

thundertaker wrote: Don't forget the fact that the Officers in the Red Army were purged on a regular basis to get rid of any perceived threat to Stalin's power, which had the effect of paralysing any initiative on the part of the leadership within the Red Army.....

i forgot about stalins purging.


you know what's funny though? hitler did the same thing and he managed to still have an effective army.

[DSwain]

thundertaker wrote: Don't forget the fact that the Officers in the Red Army were purged on a regular basis to get rid of any perceived threat to Stalin's power, which had the effect of paralysing any initiative on the part of the leadership within the Red Army.....

I must agree - the purges of the 30s, along with the lacing of the Red Army with political 'commissars', totally undermined the fighting capacity of the army. Thankfully for all concerned, the drubbing the Soviets received in the Winter War against Finland quickly shocked Stalin into action, reversing the policy of purge and politicisation. If not, then the collapses of the Red Army in 1941 would have reached the level of rout.

Interestingly, with the onset of Barbarossa, one of the first things the Russians asked of the British was to send gold braid - and lots of it. Symbols of rank had been discarded during the period of the purges and the Russians were keen to re-install that sense of pride and professionalism among the officer class.

[DSwain]

The Comrade wrote: thundertaker wrote: Don't forget the fact that the Officers in the Red Army were purged on a regular basis to get rid of any perceived threat to Stalin's power, which had the effect of paralysing any initiative on the part of the leadership within the Red Army.....

i forgot about stalins purging.


you know what's funny though? hitler did the same thing and he managed to still have an effective army.

But Hitler tried nothing on the scale of the purges. Hitler was much more effective in keeping the Wehrmact 'off balance' by delivering success in the field when the naysayers of the General Staff were prophesising doom.

[LostSoul3412]

You also have to understand the Russian military strategy and mentality of the time:

Strategy: Charge. Keep charging. No retreat. One gun for two people. Keep going. No stopping. You stop, I shoot you.

Mentality: If we lose the battle, it must be the solders' fault... kill them.

If we lose the operation, then it must be the officers' fault... kill them.

[The Comrade]

DSwain wrote: The Comrade wrote: thundertaker wrote: Don't forget the fact that the Officers in the Red Army were purged on a regular basis to get rid of any perceived threat to Stalin's power, which had the effect of paralysing any initiative on the part of the leadership within the Red Army.....

i forgot about stalins purging.


you know what's funny though? hitler did the same thing and he managed to still have an effective army.

But Hitler tried nothing on the scale of the purges. Hitler was much more effective in keeping the Wehrmact 'off balance' by delivering success in the field when the naysayers of the General Staff were prophesising doom.

it may have not been on the scale of the russian purge, but after hitler came to power he ordered the gestapo to purge the nazi party. and it deffinatly wasn't low evel peons being killed.

also, in terms of military personel killed, look at the field marshells hitler killed? even after that the german army managed to be a fierce and effective fighting machine

[DSwain]

The Comrade wrote: DSwain wrote: The Comrade wrote: thundertaker wrote: Don't forget the fact that the Officers in the Red Army were purged on a regular basis to get rid of any perceived threat to Stalin's power, which had the effect of paralysing any initiative on the part of the leadership within the Red Army.....

i forgot about stalins purging.


you know what's funny though? hitler did the same thing and he managed to still have an effective army.

But Hitler tried nothing on the scale of the purges. Hitler was much more effective in keeping the Wehrmact 'off balance' by delivering success in the field when the naysayers of the General Staff were prophesising doom.

it may have not been on the scale of the russian purge, but after hitler came to power he ordered the gestapo to purge the nazi party. and it deffinatly wasn't low evel peons being killed.

also, in terms of military personel killed, look at the field marshells hitler killed? even after that the german army managed to be a fierce and effective fighting machine

But when the chips were down in the 30s, Hitler came out on the side of the army. When Rohm, head of the SA (Brownshirts), proposed that the army should be incorporated into the SA, Hitler came out on the side of the Wehrmact and Rohm found himself dead, executed on Hitler's orders.

[milo1047]

The Russian conscript proved himself to be a tough, capable soldier throughout the course of the war. When the chips were down at Moscow and Stalingrad, they kicked the crap out of the Germans.

[LostSoul3412]

milo1047 wrote: The Russian conscript proved himself to be a tough, capable soldier throughout the course of the war. When the chips were down at Moscow and Stalingrad, they kicked the crap out of the Germans.

The reason being is that if the conscripts ever turned around, they'd be shot by their own commanders.

Also, the Russian conscript was worthless without a gun.

[milo1047]

LostSoul3412 wrote: milo1047 wrote: The Russian conscript proved himself to be a tough, capable soldier throughout the course of the war. When the chips were down at Moscow and Stalingrad, they kicked the crap out of the Germans.

The reason being is that if the conscripts ever turned around, they'd be shot by their own commanders.

Also, the Russian conscript was worthless without a gun.

I'd say any soldier was worthless without a gun...

The Russian soldier fought because he blieved in the Great Patriotic War, even if that was so much propaganda. The Russian people were tought and willing throughout the war. "Everything for the Front!" was their motto.

[LostSoul3412]

milo1047 wrote: I'd say any soldier was worthless without a gun...

The point was that there was one rifle for every two Russian conscripts.

milo1047 wrote: The Russian soldier fought because he blieved in the Great Patriotic War, even if that was so much propaganda. The Russian people were tought and willing throughout the war. "Everything for the Front!" was their motto.

You forgot the second part, the motto actually was:

"Everything for the Front... or else!"

[The Comrade]

milo1047 wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: milo1047 wrote: The Russian conscript proved himself to be a tough, capable soldier throughout the course of the war. When the chips were down at Moscow and Stalingrad, they kicked the crap out of the Germans.

The reason being is that if the conscripts ever turned around, they'd be shot by their own commanders.

Also, the Russian conscript was worthless without a gun.

I'd say any soldier was worthless without a gun...

The Russian soldier fought because he blieved in the Great Patriotic War, even if that was so much propaganda. The Russian people were tought and willing throughout the war. "Everything for the Front!" was their motto.

conscripts sometimes weren't even given a gun. it was something like two would get a clip for a mosin nagant and the other would get an actual mosin nagant.


and the germans were incredibly nationalistic, and fighting for survival also(stalingrad and the battle for moscow). they were fighting just as fierce.

[milo1047]

The Comrade wrote: milo1047 wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: milo1047 wrote: The Russian conscript proved himself to be a tough, capable soldier throughout the course of the war. When the chips were down at Moscow and Stalingrad, they kicked the crap out of the Germans.

The reason being is that if the conscripts ever turned around, they'd be shot by their own commanders.

Also, the Russian conscript was worthless without a gun.

I'd say any soldier was worthless without a gun...

The Russian soldier fought because he blieved in the Great Patriotic War, even if that was so much propaganda. The Russian people were tought and willing throughout the war. "Everything for the Front!" was their motto.

conscripts sometimes weren't even given a gun. it was something like two would get a clip for a mosin nagant and the other would get an actual mosin nagant.


and the germans were incredibly nationalistic, and fighting for survival also(stalingrad and the battle for moscow). they were fighting just as fierce.

The 'two men one gun' thing was only at the very beginning of the war. Once the war economy was in full swing, they ut produced Germany in pretty much everything. Mosin-Nagant rifles are so cheap these days because they made MILLIONS of the things.

[milo1047]

LostSoul3412 wrote: milo1047 wrote: I'd say any soldier was worthless without a gun...

The point was that there was one rifle for every two Russian conscripts.

milo1047 wrote: The Russian soldier fought because he blieved in the Great Patriotic War, even if that was so much propaganda. The Russian people were tought and willing throughout the war. "Everything for the Front!" was their motto.

You forgot the second part, the motto actually was:

"Everything for the Front... or else!"
Really? I haven't seen this quote in any history book I've read... :roll: