Political Crossfire Forums

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

simple question. if there is a 'good' god, where does evil come from?

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Random Evil Guy wrote: simple question. if there is a 'good' god, where does evil come from?

Inevitable consequence of free will.

Yojimbo · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 327 Location: Tallahassee, FL

If you assume the Thomist stance you allude to (God is all powerful, all good, all knowing, God is the cause of all things) then evil is an impossibility. There is only good and the absence of good. Of course, there are logical contradictions involved in believing all of those things.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Random Evil Guy wrote: simple question. if there is a 'good' god, where does evil come from?

Some would say evil is a by-product of good, being that good came first (referring to the Garden of Eden story). Some say (which I think is most interesting) that evil is the other side of God and that God basically (as has been explained to me) split what he is into two options good (God as we know him ) and evil (the Devil).
Some say the two are only related in regards to being exact opposites, but God allowed evil to be created so that his 'plan' can be completed as he sees fit.
Some have even gone so far as to say good is actually evil, disguising itself as good fooling those who believe.
But I am not sure anyone knows for sure.

Carlin · Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject:

Good and evil are constructs of the human mind to condemn certain behaviors and beliefs and to praise others.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9370

Carlin wrote: Good and evil are constructs of the human mind to condemn certain behaviors and beliefs and to praise others. Very true.

Religiously speaking here, I find that even the most 'evil' of acts has a sliver lining. No matter how evil someone like Hitler was, and how horrendous his actions were, there was still something good that came from it. He, and his actions, taught the world valuable lessons. Good and evil are nothing more than ways people have to condemn or honor actions and beliefs they like or dislike.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24196

Random Evil Guy wrote: simple question. if there is a 'good' god, where does evil come from?

Free will.

_Locke_ · Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 182 Location: Bailey

but... how does free will make evil?

I do not take 'just because' answers

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24196

_Locke_ wrote: but... how does free will make evil?

I do not take 'just because' answers

Evil is anything that is outside of God's will....when you decide to do something your own way that is contrary to God's will....that's evil.

God is totally good and Holy. His will is alway the right way....when we decide to not trust in Him and do our own thing...."evil" is the result.

There's a guy on here that like to use a pool table as an analogy for God and His plan. Let's just say that God created you as a pool ball....you're whole purpose is to be struck by the cue ball and sink into a pocket. But God doesn't just want this ball to be forced into the pocket....He wants to have a relationship with the ball and for the ball to choose of its own free will to go into the pocket (so the ball can enjoy the action as much as God does).

Now....the ball going into the pocket is good...and the ball choosing to swerve and miss the pocket is evil. It doesn't matter if the crazy ball that refuses to ever sink into the pocket enjoys swerving all over the table. The fact still remains that it's screwing up the game….and in fact missing the whole point of the game.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

_Locke_ wrote: but... how does free will make evil?

I do not take 'just because' answers
Quote: I do not take 'just because' answers
Get used to it in here :lol: :roll:
Not many can actually describe in much detail why they think a certain way, I have noticed. Many respond with a verse, or a 'go look it up yourself' answer which is sad. Especially when someone honestly wants to know an opinion of a belief that someone has, not what is written in an almost 2000 year old book, or a 'just because'.
Personally, I don't buy the whole 'free will' idea that many push. It seems almost contradictory with other things of God that they also 'push'. Perhaps some think free will makes evil because of the choice given to Adam and Eve in the garden - they made the wrong choice as a result of their 'free will'. A choice, mind you, that God put into their heads knowing (being he is all knowing) what the outcome would be, and therefore, the punishment of 'evil'.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24196

toddytodd wrote: _Locke_ wrote: but... how does free will make evil?

I do not take 'just because' answers
Quote: I do not take 'just because' answers
Get used to it in here :lol: :roll:
Not many can actually describe in much detail why they think a certain way, I have noticed. Many respond with a verse, or a 'go look it up yourself' answer which is sad. Especially when someone honestly wants to know an opinion of a belief that someone has, not what is written in an almost 2000 year old book, or a 'just because'.
Personally, I don't buy the whole 'free will' idea that many push. It seems almost contradictory with other things of God that they also 'push'. Perhaps some think free will makes evil because of the choice given to Adam and Eve in the garden - they made the wrong choice as a result of their 'free will'. A choice, mind you, that God put into their heads knowing (being he is all knowing) what the outcome would be, and therefore, the punishment of 'evil'.

http://home.messiah.edu/~chase/articles/skolem.htm

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 4005 Location: Tulsa, OK

John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: simple question. if there is a 'good' god, where does evil come from?

Free will. Free will and the alleged inherent iniquity of humanity does not absolve god of responsibility for such sinister natural occurances as hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, mudslides, firestorms, plagues, birth defects, deadly viruses, etc. The very machinery of nature is sinister – in religious terminology, evil – and it cannot be argued that humanities free will is the cause of such natural catastrophes, furthermore if an omnipotent god is in charge of such natural mechanisms it is abundantly clear that such a god has intentionally put such catastrophes in motion, deeming such a concept of god, as I have argued in the following thread (http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64775&highlight=), the ultimate sadist.

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

for example, why create adam and eve knowing that they'd sin?

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

John wrote: toddytodd wrote: _Locke_ wrote: but... how does free will make evil?

I do not take 'just because' answers
Quote: I do not take 'just because' answers
Get used to it in here :lol: :roll:
Not many can actually describe in much detail why they think a certain way, I have noticed. Many respond with a verse, or a 'go look it up yourself' answer which is sad. Especially when someone honestly wants to know an opinion of a belief that someone has, not what is written in an almost 2000 year old book, or a 'just because'.
Personally, I don't buy the whole 'free will' idea that many push. It seems almost contradictory with other things of God that they also 'push'. Perhaps some think free will makes evil because of the choice given to Adam and Eve in the garden - they made the wrong choice as a result of their 'free will'. A choice, mind you, that God put into their heads knowing (being he is all knowing) what the outcome would be, and therefore, the punishment of 'evil'.

http://home.messiah.edu/~chase/articles/skolem.htm

See? Quote: http://home.messiah.edu/~chase/articles/skolem.htm
Perfect example. It is easy to supply a link, or do a 'just because', much more difficult to put it into one's own words. John, you are too funny

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24196

toddytodd wrote: John wrote: toddytodd wrote: _Locke_ wrote: but... how does free will make evil?

I do not take 'just because' answers
Quote: I do not take 'just because' answers
Get used to it in here :lol: :roll:
Not many can actually describe in much detail why they think a certain way, I have noticed. Many respond with a verse, or a 'go look it up yourself' answer which is sad. Especially when someone honestly wants to know an opinion of a belief that someone has, not what is written in an almost 2000 year old book, or a 'just because'.
Personally, I don't buy the whole 'free will' idea that many push. It seems almost contradictory with other things of God that they also 'push'. Perhaps some think free will makes evil because of the choice given to Adam and Eve in the garden - they made the wrong choice as a result of their 'free will'. A choice, mind you, that God put into their heads knowing (being he is all knowing) what the outcome would be, and therefore, the punishment of 'evil'.

http://home.messiah.edu/~chase/articles/skolem.htm

See? Quote: http://home.messiah.edu/~chase/articles/skolem.htm
Perfect example. It is easy to supply a link, or do a 'just because', much more difficult to put it into one's own words. John, you are too funny

I thought you might find the article interesting. *shrug*

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5521 Location: Dreamland, NC

Random Evil Guy wrote: for example, why create adam and eve knowing that they'd sin?

Because he loves us.

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:14 am Post subject:

mojo wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: for example, why create adam and eve knowing that they'd sin?

Because he loves us.

Please. As if the serpant wasn't God in disguise. :roll:

The whole Adam & Eve thing wasn't about a simple act as eating an apple. It was a failure on Eve's part to not use her brain; to not be inquisitive or truth seeking. Why didn't she find it odd that the serpant wanted her to eat the fruit so bad? What did he have to gain from her eating the fruit? Or why didn't she or Adam ask God why the fruit was forbidden in the first place? She listened and did something someone told her to do just because he seemingly knew what he was talking about. Whether somebody tells you to "gas those jews" or "eat this fruit," it's important to get down to the reason why they want you to do such a thing. So the original sin was about a lack of mindfulness. Mindfulness being the only thing that can be asked of anyone.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5521 Location: Dreamland, NC

Carlin wrote: mojo wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: for example, why create adam and eve knowing that they'd sin?

Because he loves us.

Please. As if the serpant wasn't God in disguise. :roll:

The whole Adam & Eve thing wasn't about a simple act as eating an apple. It was a failure on Eve's part to not use her brain; to not be inquisitive or truth seeking. Why didn't she find it odd that the serpant wanted her to eat the fruit so bad? What did he have to gain from her eating the fruit? Or why didn't she or Adam ask God why the fruit was forbidden in the first place? She listened and did something someone told her to do just because he seemingly knew what he was talking about. Whether somebody tells you to "gas those jews" or "eat this fruit," it's important to get down to the reason why they want you to do such a thing. So the original sin was about a lack of mindfulness. Mindfulness being the only thing that can be asked of anyone.

No she fell into the trap of selfishness. It wasn't about mindfulness. SHe chose to eat it because she thought it would make her better. In the end her selfishness destroyed the world. Even though arguably a sin was going to take place regardless of the existence of the tree.

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5496 Location: Taxatraz

John wrote: _Locke_ wrote: but... how does free will make evil?

I do not take 'just because' answers

Evil is anything that is outside of God's will....when you decide to do something your own way that is contrary to God's will....that's evil.

God is totally good and Holy. His will is alway the right way....when we decide to not trust in Him and do our own thing...."evil" is the result.

There's a guy on here that like to use a pool table as an analogy for God and His plan. Let's just say that God created you as a pool ball....you're whole purpose is to be struck by the cue ball and sink into a pocket. But God doesn't just want this ball to be forced into the pocket....He wants to have a relationship with the ball and for the ball to choose of its own free will to go into the pocket (so the ball can enjoy the action as much as God does).

Now....the ball going into the pocket is good...and the ball choosing to swerve and miss the pocket is evil. It doesn't matter if the crazy ball that refuses to ever sink into the pocket enjoys swerving all over the table. The fact still remains that it's screwing up the game….and in fact missing the whole point of the game.
Bad analogy, but that's beside the point. God did not give us free will to make us slaves; he gave us eyes to see and a mind to think. Living your life according to what other people think and say without thinking and seeing for yourself is therefore disrespectful to God.

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:52 am Post subject:

mojo wrote: Carlin wrote:
Because he loves us.

Please. As if the serpant wasn't God in disguise. :roll:

The whole Adam & Eve thing wasn't about a simple act as eating an apple. It was a failure on Eve's part to not use her brain; to not be inquisitive or truth seeking. Why didn't she find it odd that the serpant wanted her to eat the fruit so bad? What did he have to gain from her eating the fruit? Or why didn't she or Adam ask God why the fruit was forbidden in the first place? She listened and did something someone told her to do just because he seemingly knew what he was talking about. Whether somebody tells you to "gas those jews" or "eat this fruit," it's important to get down to the reason why they want you to do such a thing. So the original sin was about a lack of mindfulness. Mindfulness being the only thing that can be asked of anyone.

Quote: No she fell into the trap of selfishness. It wasn't about mindfulness. SHe chose to eat it because she thought it would make her better. In the end her selfishness destroyed the world. Even though arguably a sin was going to take place regardless of the existence of the tree.

Unfortunately for you, it's up for interpretation.