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drBo
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 325
Location: Probably in class...;)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I know that this is very simplistic, but maybe he already knows what will happen but ignores it and watches us to see what we do. |
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Libertatis Advocatus
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 419
Location: Harrah, OK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: Faulty logic. Simply saying God is a mathematician who plays pool doesn't mean anything. How does that prove human beings are created without free will? That's all that's left if God is omniscient enough to look at the entire universe as some sort of cosmic beerhall amusement. That's a poor metaphor. And people obviously have free will. They are responsible for any evil their actions incur. So your attempt to corner Christian belief into an epistemological corral is simply based on an fallacious premise.
How is the logic faulty, just because you say it is?
My point is that in order to be logical and a Christian that one must concede there is no free will. The metaphor is perfectly sound - Jehovah's creation could be done in a number of ways. The mathematician could align the balls and strike the cue ball in a number of ways. Both make choices knowing what the outcome will be.
Quote: And, as John so eloquently put it, simply not creating you because God knew you wouldn't want to worship God would be the most tyrannical thing that God could have possibly done.
What? I don't even know how this entered the discussion and it's irrelevant to my point.
Quote: You are stuck with the consequences of your own actions, as there is no logical basis in which blame for your actions can be shifted from you to God.
If you believe that Jehovah is omniscient (which the Bible says he is) and that Jehovah created the world, the blame for all evil is placed in the hands of Jehovah who created an enviroment that he knew would foster evil, pain, and suffering. |
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John
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 24197
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: If you believe that Jehovah is omniscient (which the Bible says he is) and that Jehovah created the world, the blame for all evil is placed in the hands of Jehovah who created an enviroment that he knew would foster evil, pain, and suffering.
Well, I don't agree with your logic here, but for the sake of aurguement let's say that you're correct.
You do understand that Jehovah took on the sin of man, died on a cross and paid the price of sin....right?
That the only sin that you'll be found guilty of is rejecting what He did for your sake....right?
That God loved us so much...that He created us anyway...even though He KNEW that He would have to suffer greatly in order to redeem us from ourselves....right? |
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John
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 24197
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: My point is that in order to be logical and a Christian that one must concede there is no free will. The metaphor is perfectly sound - Jehovah's creation could be done in a number of ways. The mathematician could align the balls and strike the cue ball in a number of ways. Both make choices knowing what the outcome will be.
Wrong....to be a logical Christian one must concede that Salavtion is only possible when we submit to our own free will and allow the mathematician follow through with the shots.
That Calvary is the shot the mathematician made that causes the ball to return to being a pool ball that obeys the laws of physics. Not all balls will respond...and this life will determine which balls end up on the mathematician's pool table. |
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Libertatis Advocatus
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 419
Location: Harrah, OK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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John wrote: Quote: My point is that in order to be logical and a Christian that one must concede there is no free will. The metaphor is perfectly sound - Jehovah's creation could be done in a number of ways. The mathematician could align the balls and strike the cue ball in a number of ways. Both make choices knowing what the outcome will be.
Wrong....to be a logical Christian one must concede that Salavtion is only possible when we submit to our own free will and allow the mathematician follow through with the shots.
That Calvary is the shot the mathematician made that causes the ball to return to being a pool ball that obeys the laws of physics. Not all balls will respond...and this life will determine which balls end up on the mathematician's pool table.
Ok, because you do not comprehend my point, I'll take this down another path - explain to me why some people willfully become Christians while others do not. |
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John
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 24197
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Libertatis Advocatus wrote: John wrote: Quote: My point is that in order to be logical and a Christian that one must concede there is no free will. The metaphor is perfectly sound - Jehovah's creation could be done in a number of ways. The mathematician could align the balls and strike the cue ball in a number of ways. Both make choices knowing what the outcome will be.
Wrong....to be a logical Christian one must concede that Salavtion is only possible when we submit to our own free will and allow the mathematician follow through with the shots.
That Calvary is the shot the mathematician made that causes the ball to return to being a pool ball that obeys the laws of physics. Not all balls will respond...and this life will determine which balls end up on the mathematician's pool table.
Ok, because you do not comprehend my point, I'll take this down another path - explain to me why some people willfully become Christians while others do not.
I understand your point perfectly.
Is your goal to have a discussion about predestination? |
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