Political Crossfire Forums

[Libertatis Advocatus]

Jehovah created Samael (Lucifer), who ultimately fell from grace, and influenced man to sin. Jehovah, having godly power, should've known that Samael would fall from grace and influence man to sin. Jehovah created Eve with insufficient willpower to reject the temptation presented by the fallen Samael. Ultimately, because Jehovah created the world in the way he did, man sinnned.

Does anyone else find this a bit silly for a god? This guy makes Zeus look like he has it together at times...

[Hawkins]

Libertatis Advocatus wrote: Jehovah created Samael (Lucifer), who ultimately fell from grace, and influenced man to sin. Jehovah, having godly power, should've known that Samael would fall from grace and influence man to sin. Jehovah created Eve with insufficient willpower to reject the temptation presented by the fallen Samael. Ultimately, because Jehovah created the world in the way he did, man sinnned.

Does anyone else find this a bit silly for a god? This guy makes Zeus look like he has it together at times...

He knew all this once He allowed free will. If it's not samael, there should be samual, samuel, sameal.....etc. to take up the place.

Men are silly. :wink:

[Libertatis Advocatus]

Hawkins wrote: Libertatis Advocatus wrote: Jehovah created Samael (Lucifer), who ultimately fell from grace, and influenced man to sin. Jehovah, having godly power, should've known that Samael would fall from grace and influence man to sin. Jehovah created Eve with insufficient willpower to reject the temptation presented by the fallen Samael. Ultimately, because Jehovah created the world in the way he did, man sinnned.

Does anyone else find this a bit silly for a god? This guy makes Zeus look like he has it together at times...

He knew all this once He allowed free will. If it's not samael, there should be samual, samuel, sameal.....etc. to take up the place.

Men are silly. :wink:

You miss the point. Jehovah should either be all-knowing, or not. I do not see how he could be conditionally all-knowing, that is, once X happens he suddenly gains insight of eternity.

My point is that Jehovah could've created existence in a multitude of ways, he knowingly chose to create the world in a way where man would be sinful, some more than others. Jehovah's actions led to the creation of evil who would ultimately turn evil due to their genetics and their environment. These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity. I am not sure how souls burn, but you can get back to me on that one...

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

[Hawkins]

Libertatis Advocatus wrote: You miss the point. Jehovah should either be all-knowing, or not. I do not see how he could be conditionally all-knowing, that is, once X happens he suddenly gains insight of eternity.

My point is that Jehovah could've created existence in a multitude of ways, he knowingly chose to create the world in a way where man would be sinful, some more than others. Jehovah's actions led to the creation of evil who would ultimately turn evil due to their genetics and their environment. These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity. I am not sure how souls burn, but you can get back to me on that one...

When He creates, He knows some will be burnt in Hell, as a result of the granted free will. He even knows who will go there.

That wont bother His will to create.

[Libertatis Advocatus]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

Why do we choose the paths we do? Genetics and enviroment. Jehovah created the word, he knows all that is to happen. He made it so that many conditions line in to play so that certain people will choose certain courses of actions. If you are a Christian, admitting there is such a thing as free-will is contrary to your own religious doctrine.

[Hawkins]

Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

Why do we choose the paths we do? Genetics and enviroment. Jehovah created the word, he knows all that is to happen. He made it so that many conditions line in to play so that certain people will choose certain courses of actions. If you are a Christian, admitting there is such a thing as free-will is contrary to your own religious doctrine.

? there's no contradiction there, explained perhaps a thousand time. So pay attention next time an answer pops up. Moreover, it doesn't sound that you have a question. You demonstrate an answer instead, to support your own point of view thou.

[Random Evil Guy]

Hawkins wrote: Libertatis Advocatus wrote: You miss the point. Jehovah should either be all-knowing, or not. I do not see how he could be conditionally all-knowing, that is, once X happens he suddenly gains insight of eternity.

My point is that Jehovah could've created existence in a multitude of ways, he knowingly chose to create the world in a way where man would be sinful, some more than others. Jehovah's actions led to the creation of evil who would ultimately turn evil due to their genetics and their environment. These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity. I am not sure how souls burn, but you can get back to me on that one...

When He creates, He knows some will be burnt in Hell, as a result of the granted free will. He even knows who will go there.

That wont bother His will to create.

so he creates people he knows will sin and that he'll burn in hell for all eternity? hah, and this is the so called merciful god of the bible? :lol:

[Hawkins]

Random Evil Guy wrote: Hawkins wrote: Libertatis Advocatus wrote: You miss the point. Jehovah should either be all-knowing, or not. I do not see how he could be conditionally all-knowing, that is, once X happens he suddenly gains insight of eternity.

My point is that Jehovah could've created existence in a multitude of ways, he knowingly chose to create the world in a way where man would be sinful, some more than others. Jehovah's actions led to the creation of evil who would ultimately turn evil due to their genetics and their environment. These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity. I am not sure how souls burn, but you can get back to me on that one...

When He creates, He knows some will be burnt in Hell, as a result of the granted free will. He even knows who will go there. :lol:

That wont bother His will to create.

so he creates people he knows will sin and that he'll burn in hell for all eternity? hah, and this is the so called merciful god of the bible? :lol:

So you dont understand yet? :wink: If you insist to think that way, none can help. :lol:

Anyway, men are silly, rule of thumb. :wink:

[cap'n queasy]

Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

Why do we choose the paths we do? Genetics and enviroment. Jehovah created the word, he knows all that is to happen. He made it so that many conditions line in to play so that certain people will choose certain courses of actions. If you are a Christian, admitting there is such a thing as free-will is contrary to your own religious doctrine.

You have no understanding of Christian doctrine. :lol:

Why do we choose the paths we do?

In a lot of cases, faulty thinking.

If you persist in wrong thinking and you end up in Hell, you can only blame yourself.

[Enoch]

cap'n queasy wrote: Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

Why do we choose the paths we do? Genetics and enviroment. Jehovah created the word, he knows all that is to happen. He made it so that many conditions line in to play so that certain people will choose certain courses of actions. If you are a Christian, admitting there is such a thing as free-will is contrary to your own religious doctrine.

You have no understanding of Christian doctrine. :lol:

Why do we choose the paths we do?

In a lot of cases, faulty thinking.

If you persist in wrong thinking and you end up in Hell, you can only blame yourself. Well, beings that hell doesn't exist we have no worries.

[Hawkins]

Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

Why do we choose the paths we do? Genetics and enviroment. Jehovah created the word, he knows all that is to happen. He made it so that many conditions line in to play so that certain people will choose certain courses of actions. If you are a Christian, admitting there is such a thing as free-will is contrary to your own religious doctrine.

You have no understanding of Christian doctrine. :lol:

Why do we choose the paths we do?

In a lot of cases, faulty thinking.

If you persist in wrong thinking and you end up in Hell, you can only blame yourself. Well, beings that hell doesn't exist we have no worries.

You are religious, as your conclusion is not scientific at all. :lol:

[Enoch]

Hawkins wrote: Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

Why do we choose the paths we do? Genetics and enviroment. Jehovah created the word, he knows all that is to happen. He made it so that many conditions line in to play so that certain people will choose certain courses of actions. If you are a Christian, admitting there is such a thing as free-will is contrary to your own religious doctrine.

You have no understanding of Christian doctrine. :lol:

Why do we choose the paths we do?

In a lot of cases, faulty thinking.

If you persist in wrong thinking and you end up in Hell, you can only blame yourself. Well, beings that hell doesn't exist we have no worries.

You are religious, as your conclusion is not scientific at all. :lol: And what is that supposed to mean? You make no sense here.

[Libertatis Advocatus]

cap'n queasy wrote: Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: These unfortunate people are destine to burn for eternity.

They are not unfortunate. They chose their path.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it will be due to their own doings.

Why do we choose the paths we do? Genetics and enviroment. Jehovah created the word, he knows all that is to happen. He made it so that many conditions line in to play so that certain people will choose certain courses of actions. If you are a Christian, admitting there is such a thing as free-will is contrary to your own religious doctrine.

You have no understanding of Christian doctrine. :lol:

Why do we choose the paths we do?

In a lot of cases, faulty thinking.

If you persist in wrong thinking and you end up in Hell, you can only blame yourself.

You're not looking deeply enough. Why do some people think the way they do, and others don't?

Since Jehovah is divine, it's all good to give this analogy. He acted in a certain manner knowing his actions would bring about certain results.

Let's say a mathematician decides to run an experiment with a pool table and pool balls. Te table and the balls are perfectly spherical with no imperfections. This allows the mathematician to properly calculate the trajectory of a cue ball hit with an infinite amount of force based on its location, the vertical angle it was hit, and the horizontal position it was it.

The mathematician can place the pool balls on the table in a billion number of ways, and he can hit the cue ball in a billion number of ways. He can place the balls so that when the cue ball is hit properly all balls will fall into the pockets of one side of the table, or all different sides of the table. The decision is his. The mathematician knows events will occur corresponding to how he acts.

This is what Jehovah did. He created the world in such a way knowing man would Sin. He creating the world in such a way knowing that John W. Smith would become a Christian, and that Jake R. Lot would become a Muslim. He could've created the world knowing everyone would become a Christian...

Thus, either Jehovah doesn't know the future and isn't omniscient, or man lacks free-will. The Bible states God is omniscient.

As it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations.” This is in the presence of him whom he believed: God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were. - Romans 4:17

Therefore, in a logical Christian world view, there is no free will.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Thus, either Jehovah doesn't know the future and isn't omniscient, or man lacks free-will.

There is a logical fallacy. Knowing something is going to happen and making it happen are entirely different things. Knowing something in advance does not preclude the existence of free will, at all.

Also, consider the fact that our linear conception of time is faulty because our physical powers of perception are limited to certain parameters. Time is not actually a linear progression, as we perceive it. Personally, I think God probably perceives all events simutaneously in an eternal manner that we cannot hope to comprehend, In other words His existence extends to all dimensionalities, He's a hyperdimensional being that created a universe that exists on all those levels, not just what we can see. Our perception only extends to 3 dimensions, God's perception exists in infinite dimensions.

We are talking about a being that is waaaaaay beyond our conceptions or ability to describe.

[Libertatis Advocatus]

cap'n queasy wrote: There is a logical fallacy. Knowing something is going to happen and making it happen are entirely different things. Knowing something in advance does not preclude the existence of free will, at all.

Jehovah acted as the mathematician playing pool. He knew what was going to happen and made it happen.

[John]

Libertatis Advocatus wrote: Jehovah created Samael (Lucifer), who ultimately fell from grace, and influenced man to sin. Jehovah, having godly power, should've known that Samael would fall from grace and influence man to sin. Jehovah created Eve with insufficient willpower to reject the temptation presented by the fallen Samael. Ultimately, because Jehovah created the world in the way he did, man sinnned.

Does anyone else find this a bit silly for a god? This guy makes Zeus look like he has it together at times...


If God hadn't done what He has done...you wouldn't exist. All the events that happened in history lead up to you being born. You're mother going to Burger King instead of McDonalds before you were born would have caused you to not have been born.

God knowing what would happen, saw and LOVED many that would be the out come of "Satan" having an effect on reality.

And besides...NOT creating a being just because you know the being is going to choose to not love you would be in itself evil if the being could have chosen differently. It would equate you with a tyrant….and God isn’t a tyrant.

[John]

Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: There is a logical fallacy. Knowing something is going to happen and making it happen are entirely different things. Knowing something in advance does not preclude the existence of free will, at all.

Jehovah acted as the mathematician playing pool. He knew what was going to happen and made it happen.

That's not what the Bible says. So since you are talking about Jehovah who we know of from the Bible...you're aruguement is based on sophistic reasoning.

[John]

Quote: The mathematician can place the pool balls on the table in a billion number of ways, and he can hit the cue ball in a billion number of ways. He can place the balls so that when the cue ball is hit properly all balls will fall into the pockets of one side of the table, or all different sides of the table. The decision is his. The mathematician knows events will occur corresponding to how he acts

The problem with your anology...is that you need to add the factor of free will. Pool balls do not have free will....they must obey the laws of physics. Man...having free will....is like if the pool balls could breaks the rules of physics.

The "mathematician" would have to make a shot that caused the pool ball to decide of it's own free will to obey the laws of physics, so to speak.

[cap'n queasy]

Libertatis Advocatus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: There is a logical fallacy. Knowing something is going to happen and making it happen are entirely different things. Knowing something in advance does not preclude the existence of free will, at all.

Jehovah acted as the mathematician playing pool. He knew what was going to happen and made it happen.

Faulty logic. Simply saying God is a mathematician who plays pool doesn't mean anything. How does that prove human beings are created without free will? That's all that's left if God is omniscient enough to look at the entire universe as some sort of cosmic beerhall amusement. That's a poor metaphor. And people obviously have free will. They are responsible for any evil their actions incur. So your attempt to corner Christian belief into an epistemological corral is simply based on an fallacious premise.

And, as John so eloquently put it, simply not creating you because God knew you wouldn't want to worship God would be the most tyrannical thing that God could have possibly done.

You are stuck with the consequences of your own actions, as there is no logical basis in which blame for your actions can be shifted from you to God.