Political Crossfire Forums

[Timmytour]

MG1962 wrote: Noun 1. supposition - a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence
guess, speculation, surmisal, surmise, conjecture, hypothesis
opinion, view - a message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof; "his opinions appeared frequently on the editorial page"

****but with all that was going on what on earth was the person who found it doing looking through all the rubbish accumulating on the streets****

This is a supposition. You dont know the circumstances of the find. It may have hit the person in the face during the fall. Or landed on top of a car hence drawing attention to itself some how.

****how on earth did he deduce it was something relevant to what was going on?****

Who said either the witness or the police officer deduced that the find of the passport was important to events unfolding. You have no proof of that what so ever.

The vast majority of people finding a seemingly lost passport would hand it to authorities. For all you know the witness may have thought the passport was dropped by a tourist to New York paniced by events and dropped in haste.

My suppositions are as valid as yours - because neither is supported by fact





Reading back, you make valid points. But I'd argue that my suppositions are really in fact my questions, just mixed in a little too much :-D

What would have been the circumstances surrounding the finding of the passport? Are we expected them to have taken place in addition to the incredible circumstances of the passport finding itself there in the first place?

Now it's true that is down to speculation,but it's not speculation replacing official story it speculation where there is no official line.

My deduction is that this was a "pre-arranged" finding based on the fact that I cannot accept the odds of both the passport being there and a passer-by. who never either identifies himself at the time or subsequently (and more bizarrely to me appears never to have been the target of an attempt to locate him by the media as one of the curious figures of 9/11) locating it and handing it in to a police officer before the collapse of the towers.

And now I have to admit to being wrong yet again. I had thought that the NYPD officer had never been discovered, but it turns out that...

http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/911_TerrTrav_Ch2.pdf
Quote: The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly thereafter. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11. See FBI report, interview of Detective Chin, Sept. 12, 2001.

Now maybe others can see a reasonable set of circumstances that lead to all this. For my part it's something I choose not to do because there are too many AND WAHT ABOUT IF THEN statements in it for me.

I find this bit of speculation...my own speculation...something I do not neccessary believe, but find to be more believeable....

An Urban Moving employee handed the passport to a NYPD detective soon after the planes hit the towers and then retired to watch, video and celebrate the fact that they were with some of his colleagues. He was subsequently arrested along with his colleagues.

Yeah...speculation I know...but there's corresponding circumstantial evidence that could be said to support it, while, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing official to contradict it. :lol:

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Reading back, you make valid points. But I'd argue that my suppositions are really in fact my questions, just mixed in a little too much

What would have been the circumstances surrounding the finding of the passport? Are we expected them to have taken place in addition to the incredible circumstances of the passport finding itself there in the first place?

Now it's true that is down to speculation,but it's not speculation replacing official story it speculation where there is no official line.


Absolutely no worries :) And yes because there is as you say no offical version, you can speculate till your hearts content.

The fun part (From a purely debating point of view) You can't loose the point because neither side can prove their argument correct

[Timmytour]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: Reading back, you make valid points. But I'd argue that my suppositions are really in fact my questions, just mixed in a little too much

What would have been the circumstances surrounding the finding of the passport? Are we expected them to have taken place in addition to the incredible circumstances of the passport finding itself there in the first place?

Now it's true that is down to speculation,but it's not speculation replacing official story it speculation where there is no official line.


Absolutely no worries :) And yes because there is as you say no offical version, you can speculate till your hearts content.

The fun part (From a purely debating point of view) You can't loose the point because neither side can prove their argument correct

Absolutely :-D

I think of a conspiracy theory as something that is indeed alternate to an official version and therefore perhaps deserves a place in this forum.

Mind you, I'm at a loss for why so many threads which do go against official thinking...eg Saddam did have WMD... seem to struggle so much to get out of the P&G that they..err...don't :shock:

Speculation in the absence of an official version however is a different matter. It is not "alternate" theories because there is nothing official to be alternate to. Mind you, that means we'll probably end up with a Speculation forum where threads along the lines of the US is losing the war on Terror will be sent to, while those that proclaim things are getting better will struggle a la the Saddam had WMD threads :lol:

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Speculation in the absence of an official version however is a different matter. It is not "alternate" theories because there is nothing official to be alternate to. Mind you, that means we'll probably end up with a Speculation forum where threads along the lines of the US is losing the war on Terror will be sent to, while those that proclaim things are getting better will struggle a la the Saddam had WMD threads

I actually agree with you. I have often wondered about the preoccupation 911 when there is so many genuinely odd events going on around the world.

The WMD thing being the most obvious from an American perspective. For the sake of the arguement - Lets say Bush and Blair genuniely believed the information they where given about the WMDs - So who manufactured the information, and for what purpose