Political Crossfire Forums

[Timmytour]

Reverend_HellH0und wrote: Timmytour wrote: Reverend_HellH0und wrote: Timmytour wrote: Reverend_HellH0und wrote: Internet rumors and speculation timmy.



Wrong forum.

Can you be more precise? What have I posted that is "internet rumor" or speculation?




My time is much to important to constantly debunk fairy tales and lies. Sorry man. I am not THAT guy.

I'm not asking you to debunk fairy tales and lies.

If you're upto to being able to comment on my post, you should be upto explaining your comments.

I'm not looking to you to answer the questions I posed, just to point out which of these occurences in your mind that I mentioned in my post is just ...

Quote: internet rumor

Quote: speculation

Quote: fairy tale

Quote: lie

To help you out I'll list them out for you...

1/ One of the hijacker's passports was found by a passer by and handed over to a law enforcement officer after the towers were hit and before they collapsed.

2/ The plane that hit that Pentagon flew in on a remarkably low trajectory, hitting the building while avoiding the ground.

3/ Five Israelis who worked for a company called Urban Moving Systems were arrested after being reported videoing the towers as they burned and dancing and celebrating.

4/ Rumsfeld said that Flight 93 was shot down in a speech he made to the troops.

c'mon Reverend, which is which of the labels you have provided?

It's Put up or Shut Up time I fancy....




1-4 need links.

Oooh....deeming to give a response of sorts now are we....

I'm sure these are facts that you would have come across many times in the diligent research you undertook that so thoroughly backed up in your mind the government's version of what happened.

Nonetheless we all need reminding of things from time to time so, inorder to help you out, here are your links.....

1/ Quote: MS. SUSAN GINSBURG: Beginning with passports. Four of the hijackers passports have survived in whole or in part. Two were recovered from the crash site of United Airlines flight 93 in Pennsylvania. These are the passports of Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al Ghamdi. One belonged to a hijacker on American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Satam al Suqami. A passerby picked it up and gave it to a NYPD detective shortly before the World Trade Center towers collapsed. A fourth passport was recovered from luggage that did not make it from a Portland flight to Boston on to the connecting flight which was American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Abdul Aziz al Omari.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing7/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-01-26.htm

2/ You need a link for this? It's opinion I'll grant you but one I think you will shared by quite a few people. There's a good few eyewitness accounts on this site that certainly testify as to how low it was flying...and we certainly can vouch for the fact that it was very accurate..

http://home.planet.nl/~reijd050/JoeR/911_dump_of_Pentagon_quotes.html

3/ Quote: The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.” He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs”, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11”.

Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707


4/ Quote: And I think all of us have a sense, if we imagine, the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed us the mess hall in Mosul or the people who did the bombing in Spain or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania, attacked the Pentagon, the people who cut off people's heads on television to intimidate, to frighten. Indeed, the word “terrorize” is just that, its purpose is to terrorize, to alter behavior to make people be something other than that which they want to be and that is exactly what we cannot allow to happen.

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20041223-secdef1921.html

[Reverend_HellH0und]

Timmytour wrote: Quote:
Oooh....deeming to give a response of sorts now are we....

I'm sure these are facts that you would have come across many times in the diligent research you undertook that so thoroughly backed up in your mind the government's version of what happened.

Nonetheless we all need reminding of things from time to time so, inorder to help you out, here are your links.....

1/ Quote: MS. SUSAN GINSBURG: Beginning with passports. Four of the hijackers passports have survived in whole or in part. Two were recovered from the crash site of United Airlines flight 93 in Pennsylvania. These are the passports of Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al Ghamdi. One belonged to a hijacker on American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Satam al Suqami. A passerby picked it up and gave it to a NYPD detective shortly before the World Trade Center towers collapsed. A fourth passport was recovered from luggage that did not make it from a Portland flight to Boston on to the connecting flight which was American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Abdul Aziz al Omari.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing7/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-01-26.htm




Speculation. Question not asked.


How many TOTAL passports were recovered?




Now if you know this information you are purposefully discounting it for a fairy tale.

If you do not know the information you are coming to a conclusion prematurley and intellectually lazy.


Quote: 2/ You need a link for this? It's opinion I'll grant you but one I think you will shared by quite a few people. There's a good few eyewitness accounts on this site that certainly testify as to how low it was flying...and we certainly can vouch for the fact that it was very accurate..

http://home.planet.nl/~reijd050/JoeR/911_dump_of_Pentagon_quotes.html




Garbage site aside. Whats the point that points to a grand conspiracy?


Quote:
3/ Quote: The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.” He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs”, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11”.

Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707



An "unamed US official"?


Question:


Were is the footage from the talk show.


Speculation and internet rumors.



Quote:
4/ Quote: And I think all of us have a sense, if we imagine, the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed us the mess hall in Mosul or the people who did the bombing in Spain or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania, attacked the Pentagon, the people who cut off people's heads on television to intimidate, to frighten. Indeed, the word “terrorize” is just that, its purpose is to terrorize, to alter behavior to make people be something other than that which they want to be and that is exactly what we cannot allow to happen.

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20041223-secdef1921.html [/quote]



Its easy to see the subject on his train of thought and how this is a simple mispeak.


But you knew all this. Your choosing to pretend there is something more.


Internet conspircay crap.

[Timmytour]

Ok ..let's first refresh our memories of the original questions and look at your answers in context....

1. How come not only was one of the hijackers passports found a couple of blocks away from the towers after they'd been hit but before they fell down, but with all that was going on what on earth was the person who found it doing looking through all the rubbish accumulating on the streets and also, how on earth did he deduce it was something relevant to what was going on? How many other law enforcement officers were handed bits of paper that passers by had found and thought might be a clue while the towers were blazing away in full sight of the world! and why have neither the passer by nor the law enforcement officer involved ever been identified?

Speculation. Question not asked.
How many TOTAL passports were recovered?
Now if you know this information you are purposefully discounting it for a fairy tale.
If you do not know the information you are coming to a conclusion prematurley and intellectually lazy.

Where's the speculation? As far as I'm concerned only one passport was found and handed in in the timeframe I talked about in my question. So I'll ask again....don't you think this was an incredible find in the circumstances, and don't you find it amazing that those involved have never been identified? I certainly do
In addition I'll ask that if more passports were found, are you saying I should be less amazed as a result? Why?

2/ Just incredible! To hit the Pentagon with that degree of accuracy coming in so low and being so close to, but hardly marking the lawn.
An "accomplishment" that would severely test any highly experienced pilot let alone an amateur with barely a few lessons under his belt. Extremely unlikely but possible...but to happen on a day of so amny other extraordinary coincidences? And why did the Pentagon, of all places, not have highly sophisticated security cameras covering it from all angles instead of one obviously obtained in a Walmart "seconds" sale with the wrong day and wrong time programmed in and p*sspoor definition? And how come no news crews were on the scene at the time filming? One would have thought that the news agencies would have stuff on standby near the Pentagon and would have gone ruhing into action upon hearing the earler news....

Garbage site aside. Whats the point that points to a grand conspiracy?

You'll remember I prefaced my questions with

Quote: I'll confess to not really believing anything happened other than the way its been officially told, though I do keep an open mind. I'm not so much into composing my own theories but I do wonder, and have yet to be given convincing explanations for..

...so I'm the not the one claiming there is a conspiracy here.

Nor indeed is the author of the "garbage site", as you described the link I put up. What does he think happened....?

Quote: The Pentagon: My own theory

Since I measured the hole in one of my articles and looked at what all the witnesses had to say, I am convinced that an American Airlines 757-223 hit the building .

That's my view as well. But perhaps you think differently?

I'm certainly amazed at the high level of skill I believe the pilot displayed to get the plane to fly in the manner described in so many of the eyewitness statements contained on what you describe as that that "garbage site". But moreover I can't believe that the coverage of the exterior of the Pentagon that would have picked up the moment the plane hit the building, was limited to a low resolution camera providing nothing but inconclusive stills which had the wrong date and the wrong time on it. I know sweet shops with better surveillance than that. I suppose the question is...are you amazed as I am about this? Or do you believe there does exist much better and moe detailed CCTV footage that just hasn't been released? In which case the question would be why hasn't it?

3/ Why hasn't the video been released that was taken by the five Israelis who were reported for dancing and celebrating within sight of the towers as they burned? I've seen videos made by "terrorist cells" within the US who turned out to be nothing more than guys who'd made a video of their trip to Disneyland. So why hasn't the "Urban Moving Five" video been released?


Speculation and internet rumors

What is? Are you denying that it happened? What do you think the story is...just an anti Israel conspiracy?

What motivation would the Jewish Week then have for printing it and interviewing the families of the men supposedly involved?

And was this State of New Jersey Press Release simply a work of fiction?

4/ Why did Rumsfeld make that "slip of the tongue" about Flight 93 being shot down? It's hard to understand how an incident so ingrained on the mind can make such a slip....unless of course there's more than one picture in his mind for some reason of how it happened.

Its easy to see the subject on his train of thought and how this is a simple mispeak.
But you knew all this. Your choosing to pretend there is something more.
Internet conspircay crap.

Of course we are conditioned to make allowances for Presidents Bush's "misspeaks". But to the best of my knowledge it is not something Rumsfeld is renowned for.

I agree that anyone can misspeak at any time. I simply find it astonishing not just that he should misspeak on such a sensitive subject, but that he did not realise it and made no immediate correction of what he said. To me, that could (I'm not stating it does) be indicative of a mind carrying about two versions of a story and letting slip the wrong one.

I think the reasons conspiracy theories abound is because of the unanswered questions and not just the "what were the chances of that happening" type of events but the string of them that occurred.

Another reason is that when people try and get reasonable answers to reasonable questions they are immediately fobbed off with comments like, "conspiracy" "speculations" internet rumour" and "fairy tale", without an accompanying plausible explanation offered.

Which makes people think that there is something being covered up.

[Wizard From Oz]

1. How come not only was one of the hijackers passports found a couple of blocks away from the towers after they'd been hit but before they fell down, but with all that was going on what on earth was the person who found it doing looking through all the rubbish accumulating on the streets and also, how on earth did he deduce it was something relevant to what was going on?

See thats the first problem - your editoral coments assuming you know something for fact that you can not possibly. Example how do you know why or what circumstances the person found the passport. Most people who see a passport laying in the street will pick it up. At the very least out of sympathy for someone who is stranded because they have lost their documents.

And yes one single passport found is unusual to say the least - But so is the fact that not one toilet bowl was found from either building.

How many other law enforcement officers were handed bits of paper that passers by had found and thought might be a clue while the towers were blazing away in full sight of the world

Again an editoral coment - you can not know what the motivation of the person finding the passport was

and why have neither the passer by nor the law enforcement officer involved ever been identified?

Could it be the law enforcement officer was a little pre occupied at the time - Its not like it was a quiet day in New York that morning.

2/ Just incredible! To hit the Pentagon with that degree of accuracy coming in so low and being so close to, but hardly marking the lawn.
An "accomplishment" that would severely test any highly experienced pilot let alone an amateur with barely a few lessons under his belt.

According to who?

Every commerical pilot and instructor I have seen interviewed has said it is very easy to steer aircraft. The hard bit is getting them off the ground and back down again.

And why did the Pentagon, of all places, not have highly sophisticated security cameras covering it from all angles instead of one obviously obtained in a Walmart "seconds" sale with the wrong day and wrong time programmed in and p*sspoor definition?

And what are the exact systems the Pentagon has, how does it compare to other military establishments? Remember there is armed guards watching the site. Real time observation being made from within the building.

And how come no news crews were on the scene at the time filming? One would have thought that the news agencies would have stuff on standby near the Pentagon and would have gone ruhing into action upon hearing the earler news....

Because they were all over at the front of the Whitehouse - and that I saw with my own eyes at the time. One of the newsmen was on air when the jet flew over low and loud heading for the Pentagon. I will never forget the look of fear on that reporters eyes

4/ Why did Rumsfeld make that "slip of the tongue" about Flight 93 being shot down? It's hard to understand how an incident so ingrained on the mind can make such a slip....unless of course there's more than one picture in his mind for some reason of how it happened.

Perhaps a similar slip to all the others that occured that day. One news reporter claimed the Capitol Building had been hit by a truck bomb. A lot of ordinary people where presented with extra-ordinary circumstances that day. To expect them to all behave perfectly is a little more than I am prepared accept

Another reason is that when people try and get reasonable answers to reasonable questions they are immediately fobbed off with comments like, "conspiracy" "speculations" internet rumour" and "fairy tale", without an accompanying plausible explanation offered.

Come on down to the alternative theory thread and you will see the MO - ignore the explanation, then start with the insults

Which makes people think that there is something being covered up.

No it doesn't it means people have made up their mind, then searched for proof rather than taking the whole weight of evidence and drawing a conclussion.

Same with the Moon landings - no matter how many times or ways you explain why you dont see stars in the photos. People still keep repeating the dis information. When they are shown how to actually test the arguement and explanation, though dont. But simply continue to repeat the incorrect information
[/quote]

[Timmytour]

Quote: / Why did Rumsfeld make that "slip of the tongue" about Flight 93 being shot down? It's hard to understand how an incident so ingrained on the mind can make such a slip....unless of course there's more than one picture in his mind for some reason of how it happened.

Perhaps a similar slip to all the others that occured that day.

Rumsfeld's comment was made on Christmas Eve 2004.

[Thrilla]

I see this turned into a debate of the conspiracy theory..... we have a forum just for those discussions

moved

[John Galt]

Also,I alreadyposted this, but since it morphed into something else I won't lock it.

[Timmytour]

Quote: your editoral coments assuming you know something for fact that you can not possibly. Example how do you know why or what circumstances the person found the passport. Most people who see a passport laying in the street will pick it up. At the very least out of sympathy for someone who is stranded because they have lost their documents.

And yes one single passport found is unusual to say the least - But so is the fact that not one toilet bowl was found from either building.

There's nothing editorial about the description of what happened. I'm then simply pointing out why I consider it to be such an astonishing story...

If that passport was on its own without a load of other debris coming out the tower, how in the hell did that happen? If it was with other debris, how in the hell did someone spot it amongst everything else at a time when most eyes were firmly glued to what was happening up on the WTC towers?

[Timmytour]

Thrilla wrote: I see this turned into a debate of the conspiracy theory..... we have a forum just for those discussions

moved

Thrilla..I'm interested to know why you made the decision.

It's not debating the conspiracy theories....it's talking about certain facts pertaining to 9/11 and what explanations there could be for them.

In that sense it's no different to speculating why the Pope included a quote about Mohammed in his recent speech.

But I get the impression that when posters slosh around the phrases "conspiracy theories "fairy tales" and "internet rumours" then it's sometimes with the desire to get the thread moved.

And, unfortunately, they usually succeed :(

[Timmytour]

Quote: And what are the exact systems the Pentagon has, how does it compare to other military establishments? Remember there is armed guards watching the site. Real time observation being made from within the building.

That's true of other buildings that nevertheless also have extensive cctv surveillance. Are you telling me that if someone had managed to daub something on the Pentagon walls they wouldn't have had any video evidence to use in ensuing court proceedings?

[Gremlin]

Timmytour wrote: Thrilla wrote: I see this turned into a debate of the conspiracy theory..... we have a forum just for those discussions

moved

Thrilla..I'm interested to know why you made the decision.

It's not debating the conspiracy theories....it's talking about certain facts pertaining to 9/11 and what explanations there could be for them.

In that sense it's no different to speculating why the Pope included a quote about Mohammed in his recent speech.

But I get the impression that when posters slosh around the phrases "conspiracy theories "fairy tales" and "internet rumours" then it's sometimes with the desire to get the thread moved.

And, unfortunately, they usually succeed :(



/P&G crybaby troll when seeing anything about 9/11... :cry1:

:push ,and :cry1: some more:

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: That's true of other buildings that nevertheless also have extensive cctv surveillance. Are you telling me that if someone had managed to daub something on the Pentagon walls they wouldn't have had any video evidence to use in ensuing court proceedings?

Probably the same way thousands of other crimes are dealt with that never have video evidence supplied

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: There's nothing editorial about the description of what happened. I'm then simply pointing out why I consider it to be such an astonishing story...


There is - you add details from your own thoughts. Passport found - passport handed to police officer - Anything beyond that in terms of motive or circumstances is pure supposition

[Norrin Radd]

MajorWoody wrote: I stated this on another thread but never heard any response on it so I will state it again;

One thing I never understood about those conspiracy theorists that believe the Bush administration was behind 9/11 is why wouldn't they also just have fabricated some WMD's in Iraq? If they were clever enough to fool 99% of the US population in to believing OBL was behind 9/11 then why couldn't they have "placed" some sarin gas in Baghdad? I think that would have been the best way to "fool" voters into voting Republican for many years.


Major

Faulty logic.

Ollie North took the fall for Iran Contra, so why didn't the government just kill anyone with knowledge of the Iran/Contra affair?

The government was busted for injecting plutonium into 11 veteran's bodies, why didn't they kill the reporter before she broke the story?

Dr. Leonard Cole testified that the government has sprayed many cities with simulated biological agents, some of which were dangerous, why didn't they kill him before he testified?

If the government started killing all whistleblowers and truthsayers, it wouldn't take long for the people to catch on. It is much smarter to just discredit the people involved, or to discredit their information, or to ignore the information altogether.

I am not saying that Loose Change is all true, as I have said before, there is not much 911 information that I beleive is reliable, however, saying that a conspiracy is false because the author is still alive is illogical. If the government started killing all the 911 conspiracy authors, this would give them more attention and more credibility, so it is much better to work on discrediting the authors and their information.

Anyways, the government doesn't kill people. If they did kill people, it would usually be reserved for those who had direct knowledge of government corruption, especially those who were well connected and had dirt on the government. Ya know, people like Ron Brown, Vince Foster, Ken Lay, Larry P. McDonald, Eugene E. Cox, James McDougal, John Heinz, John Tower, Katherine Smith, Konstantinos "Gus" Boulis, David Kelly, J. Clifford Baxter, Charles Dana Rice, James Daniel Watkins, Jake Horton, Orlando Letelier and a host of others. Now, the above people all died, but none were killed by the government. All the people above committed suicide, or died in plane accidents, car acidents, or were murdered by other people, not the government.

No, if the government killed people, it would not worry about authors of books, or videos, not unless the author has "direct knowledge" of government wrong doing.

If they were to kill people, that would be reserved for the people I listed above and others like them. Luckily for the government, it seems many of the people who do have dirt on the government like to commit suicide, die in accidents and get murdered before they can testify.

Who was it that said........."I would rather be lucky than good?"

[BipolarExpress]

I have to say I totally agree with the statement the "Loose Change" was complete bulls**t. It soesn't hold any ground as a viable and probable theory because it invloves too many variables and thus too many conspriators. It is most probably complete bulls**t. However just because loose change and several other conspriracy theories are so crazy doesn't disprove the possibility of a conspiracy. A much better video to watch would be the <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1822764959599063248&q=Jeff+king+MIT&hl=en">Jeff King</a> video.<br>
Jeff king is an actual scientist that opens some questions while staying within the realms of science fact and not proposing anything more than the highly unlikely situation of a very tall skyscraper collapsing into a pile of fine dust the majority of which landed conveniently in a central location which is characteristic of urban demolition. The other night when I watched the video on the firefighters on CBS they left out the part that is included in one of the Jeff King videos where it shows the firefighters talking about the explosions and the floors popping out. Also I saw images of ground zero which were covered in a fine white powder that looked like magnesium oxide. I'm not trying to suggest anything other than jet fuel wouldn't have melted all that steel. However Thermite is a definite possibility as a teaspoon of the stuff on the top of a car enigine will burn all the way through the metal. So go review that video and see what you have to say about it.

[Timmytour]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: There's nothing editorial about the description of what happened. I'm then simply pointing out why I consider it to be such an astonishing story...


There is - you add details from your own thoughts. Passport found - passport handed to police officer - Anything beyond that in terms of motive or circumstances is pure supposition

Passport found - passport handed to police officer = fact

Anything else = my questions ...not "editorial" not supposition because I haven't presumed anything. :roll:

[Wizard From Oz]

Noun 1. supposition - a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence
guess, speculation, surmisal, surmise, conjecture, hypothesis
opinion, view - a message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof; "his opinions appeared frequently on the editorial page"

****but with all that was going on what on earth was the person who found it doing looking through all the rubbish accumulating on the streets****

This is a supposition. You dont know the circumstances of the find. It may have hit the person in the face during the fall. Or landed on top of a car hence drawing attention to itself some how.

****how on earth did he deduce it was something relevant to what was going on?****

Who said either the witness or the police officer deduced that the find of the passport was important to events unfolding. You have no proof of that what so ever.

The vast majority of people finding a seemingly lost passport would hand it to authorities. For all you know the witness may have thought the passport was dropped by a tourist to New York paniced by events and dropped in haste.

My suppositions are as valid as yours - because neither is supported by fact



[/quote]

[Revenant]

Gremlin wrote: Timmytour wrote: Thrilla wrote: I see this turned into a debate of the conspiracy theory..... we have a forum just for those discussions

moved

Thrilla..I'm interested to know why you made the decision.

It's not debating the conspiracy theories....it's talking about certain facts pertaining to 9/11 and what explanations there could be for them.

In that sense it's no different to speculating why the Pope included a quote about Mohammed in his recent speech.

But I get the impression that when posters slosh around the phrases "conspiracy theories "fairy tales" and "internet rumours" then it's sometimes with the desire to get the thread moved.

And, unfortunately, they usually succeed :(



/P&G crybaby troll when seeing anything about 9/11... :cry1:

:push ,and :cry1: some more:

I'm reporting this post good sir! :lol:

[Dookiestix]

John Galt wrote: Also,I alreadyposted this, but since it morphed into something else I won't lock it.
Imagine my relief... :roll:

[johnflesh]

No matter the facts, the truth, or when it all comes to a head, this is a conspiracy and I imagine it always will be.