Political Crossfire Forums

[Norrin Radd]

I am still unconvinced explosives were used in the destruction of the two towers, but I try to keep an open mind. I beleive almost all of the evidence is questionable, from both sides, mostly because of the way in which the evidence and investigation were handled. I believe it will take many years for the truth to trickle out about 911, just like it has taken years for other events like the Gulf of Tonkin, the CIA backed coup in Iran and the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Maybe after 40 years of FOIA requests we will learn what really happened.

Still, if you just consider how the evidence was treated from the buildings, disposed of quickly, much like the OKC bombing evidence, this would make any open minded person question the "official" story, but unfortunatly there are a lot of people here who are not open minded and who agree with the establishment on almost every single issue.

[William Amos]

Someone show me evidence to answer my question from a source other than that professor Jones. Is he the best you can come up with ?

[psholtz]

Norrin Radd wrote: Maybe after 40 years of FOIA requests we will learn what really happened.
You don't have that much time left.

[Todd D.]

Norrin Radd wrote: PeterX wrote: William Amos wrote:

Wiling to bet he put the thermite in his own test

You're prepared to doubt a scholar who until he began researching 9/11 was massively respected was prepared to falsify the results of his scientific analysis but think that an alcoholic, drunk driving, draft dodging, grandson of a nazi collaborator is trustworthy?

Wow.

lol

That's a classic!

No one here seems interested in the history of Prescot Bush and US corporations in the buildup of NAZI Germany. It simply amazes me how so many people care nothing about the truth.
Number One: Classic instance of Godwin's Law.

Number Two: The links between Prescott Bush and Nazi Germany have been so overstated you'd think that Bush was in Hitler's Personal Cabinet. The truth can be found here

[psholtz]

Todd D. wrote: Number Two: The links between Prescott Bush and Nazi Germany have been so overstated you'd think that Bush was in Hitler's Personal Cabinet.
Bush sure as heck acts like he's in Hitler's cabinet.

[citizen_X]

Is Bush at the front lines in Iraq? nope, as usual, at least Hitler wrote his own speeches and fought in WW1, unlike Bush who got the hell outta the Air guard, yup, real all american hero Bush is.

[Todd D.]

Well, personal attacks and ad-hom's sure are fun, but the point is that the link between Adolf Hitler / Nazi Germany and Prescott Bush has been severely overstated. Citizen, if you want to praise Hitler, be my guest.

[Claudia Schiffer]

William Amos wrote: Someone show me evidence to answer my question from a source other than that professor Jones. Is he the best you can come up with ?

Professor Jones is totaly credible and he's puting his career on the line :roll: .
Beside what ever we present you, you will dismiss it. :roll: :roll: :roll:

BTW, i tough you were in charge of propaganda here, you,re in the wrong section my friend...Specialdebunk agent Patiot is much better than you at this. :lol: :lol:

[Norrin Radd]

Todd D. wrote: Norrin Radd wrote: PeterX wrote: William Amos wrote:

Wiling to bet he put the thermite in his own test

You're prepared to doubt a scholar who until he began researching 9/11 was massively respected was prepared to falsify the results of his scientific analysis but think that an alcoholic, drunk driving, draft dodging, grandson of a nazi collaborator is trustworthy?

Wow.

lol

That's a classic!

No one here seems interested in the history of Prescot Bush and US corporations in the buildup of NAZI Germany. It simply amazes me how so many people care nothing about the truth.
Number One: Classic instance of Godwin's Law.

Number Two: The links between Prescott Bush and Nazi Germany have been so overstated you'd think that Bush was in Hitler's Personal Cabinet. The truth can be found here

From your link...........

So, did Bush and his firm finance the Nazis and enable Germany to rearm? Indirectly, yes. But they had a lot of company. Some of the most distinguished names in American business had investments or subsidiaries in prewar Germany, including Standard Oil and General Motors. Critics have argued for years that without U.S. money, the Nazis could never have waged war. But American business has always invested in totalitarian regimes--witness our dealings with mainland China.

As I said, Prescott Bush AND THE US CORPORATIONS that helped build the NAZI war machine.

Your link does not deny the involvement, but it leaves out a lot of information. Really, you should be embarressed for even offering that as evidence. It was written in 2003, a year before some of the details about Prescott came to light.

See this story from the Guardian UK...........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

[citizen_X]

Todd D. wrote: Well, personal attacks and ad-hom's sure are fun, but the point is that the link between Adolf Hitler / Nazi Germany and Prescott Bush has been severely overstated. Citizen, if you want to praise Hitler, be my guest.

A comparision of two leaders, but personal attacks? now you are clearly in over your head.

[Medius]

Patriot911 wrote: psholtz wrote: The Comrade wrote: psholtz wrote: The Comrade wrote: is his field in chemistry and engineering?
I think it's physics..

then why is he doing a study on something a chemist or an engineer should be doing?
Building collapse is pretty squarely in the field of physics..

Far moreso than chemistry..

I believe he's done research on other building collapses too (although I'm not certain).

Structural engineering is not quite the same as physics although they are related. I've not seen any reference to Steven Jones being involved in any other building collapses.

Strange how you don't see any structural engineers claiming the buildings shouldn't have fallen. You DO, however, see numerous structural engineers able to recreate the events that caused the collapse of the WTC.... ;-)

I hadn't seend a very sound recreation, can you link me to one? (I'm really asking, not calling you out, I would like to see). In my own research, the best I could do was look at data taken from a company that did fire tests on various steel/concrete structures to determine the stability. Interestingly enough, their tests came out showing that a primarily steel/concrete would suffer steel strength reduction but not collapse in fires up to and exceeding large-scale office fires. This was contrary to their expectation as they used no fire-proofing and expected a collapse (these studies were done prior to 9/11).

I'd like to see a model using more of the physics involved with 9/11 as the tests mentioned previously were representative but may have left out something specific to the WTC buildings.

A quick clarification as well to a question posed earlier. Steven Jones is a physicist but his area of study is Cold Fusion. Particle physics kind of blurs the line between chemistry and physics.

Again, just a point of interest. I don't know that he is qualified to make the assessments he has, however, I can tell you that the interaction of particles, action and reaction, and spectral analysis of materials all may fall under physics for various reasons. According to his statements, his original jump into this investigation was promted by the albedo of molten metal spotted in one of the videos of the tower collapses. From my limited knowledge I can tell you that anyone with a familiarity with astro-physics would understand the relationship between albedo and the molten substance.

I really think it would be more beneficial to attack the sample than the professor.

[Todd D.]

citizen_X wrote: Todd D. wrote: Well, personal attacks and ad-hom's sure are fun, but the point is that the link between Adolf Hitler / Nazi Germany and Prescott Bush has been severely overstated. Citizen, if you want to praise Hitler, be my guest.

A comparision of two leaders, but personal attacks? now you are clearly in over your head.
You attacked the personality of a leader through a comparison between him and a person that is nearly universally revild. That is called a "Personal Attack" because it is made not against an idea, but against a person.

Quote: Your link does not deny the involvement, but it leaves out a lot of information. Really, you should be embarressed for even offering that as evidence. It was written in 2003, a year before some of the details about Prescott came to light
I don't see anything in that article beyond what you'll find on the Straight Dope. Much of the same allegations:
-Bush had links to CSSC, which managed steel for Auschwitz, but again ignoring that CSSC was siezed and nationalized in 1939, a full year before Auschwitz was constructed. Your article attempts to gloss over that:
Quote: Silesia was quickly made part of the German Reich after the invasion, but while Polish factories were seized by the Nazis, those belonging to the still neutral Americans (and some other nationals) were treated more carefully as Hitler was still hoping to persuade the US to at least sit out the war as a neutral country. Schweitzer says American interests were dealt with on a case-by-case basis. The Nazis bought some out, but not others.
BS. By 1939 and the invasion of Poland the United States had made in no uncertain terms it's loyalty to Brittain quite clear. It is well documented that CSSC was liquidated and nationalized well before Auschwitz was any more than a gleam in Hitler's eye. It's downright dishonesty or ignorance of the National Socialist economic model to claim otherwise.

-Bush had links to Thyssen through UBC, but again they ignore that Thyssen himself denounced the Nazis in 1938 (your article says 1941, which doesn't sync up with any source), fled to Switzerland in 1939, and was arrested as a POW in France until the Allied Victory. This detail is glossed over, claiming that it took place 2 years later after a "falling out" (as if one went after the other's girlfriend), but with it went the ties from Bush to Hitler, again a full 3 years before the Trading with the Enemy Act.

There's nothing truely new in your article, just a rephrasing of the same theories. They even again mention the supposed 1.5mm (roughly 18mm today) that Bush received in 1942, though there is no evidence to suggest that ever occurred nor is it logical to assume that Nazi Germany could even begin to afford such a sum given the war going on at the time.

Really though, we can both agree that neither Prescott Bush, nor his heirs, were members of the Nazi party, nor did they ever demonstrate any sort of loyalty to said party at any point. Any comparisons between the two, especially today's President, is nothing more than scare tactics and personal attacks comparing a current leader to a man that is universally unpopular. It's classic Godwin's law, and it pretty much shows that anyone making such a comparison is fundamentally incapable of discussing true issues.

[Norrin Radd]

Todd D. wrote: citizen_X wrote: Todd D. wrote: Well, personal attacks and ad-hom's sure are fun, but the point is that the link between Adolf Hitler / Nazi Germany and Prescott Bush has been severely overstated. Citizen, if you want to praise Hitler, be my guest.

A comparision of two leaders, but personal attacks? now you are clearly in over your head.
You attacked the personality of a leader through a comparison between him and a person that is nearly universally revild. That is called a "Personal Attack" because it is made not against an idea, but against a person.

Quote: Your link does not deny the involvement, but it leaves out a lot of information. Really, you should be embarressed for even offering that as evidence. It was written in 2003, a year before some of the details about Prescott came to light
I don't see anything in that article beyond what you'll find on the Straight Dope. Much of the same allegations:
-Bush had links to CSSC, which managed steel for Auschwitz, but again ignoring that CSSC was siezed and nationalized in 1939, a full year before Auschwitz was constructed. Your article attempts to gloss over that:
Quote: Silesia was quickly made part of the German Reich after the invasion, but while Polish factories were seized by the Nazis, those belonging to the still neutral Americans (and some other nationals) were treated more carefully as Hitler was still hoping to persuade the US to at least sit out the war as a neutral country. Schweitzer says American interests were dealt with on a case-by-case basis. The Nazis bought some out, but not others.
BS. By 1939 and the invasion of Poland the United States had made in no uncertain terms it's loyalty to Brittain quite clear. It is well documented that CSSC was liquidated and nationalized well before Auschwitz was any more than a gleam in Hitler's eye. It's downright dishonesty or ignorance of the National Socialist economic model to claim otherwise.

-Bush had links to Thyssen through UBC, but again they ignore that Thyssen himself denounced the Nazis in 1938 (your article says 1941, which doesn't sync up with any source), fled to Switzerland in 1939, and was arrested as a POW in France until the Allied Victory. This detail is glossed over, claiming that it took place 2 years later after a "falling out" (as if one went after the other's girlfriend), but with it went the ties from Bush to Hitler, again a full 3 years before the Trading with the Enemy Act.

There's nothing truely new in your article, just a rephrasing of the same theories. They even again mention the supposed 1.5mm (roughly 18mm today) that Bush received in 1942, though there is no evidence to suggest that ever occurred nor is it logical to assume that Nazi Germany could even begin to afford such a sum given the war going on at the time.

Really though, we can both agree that neither Prescott Bush, nor his heirs, were members of the Nazi party, nor did they ever demonstrate any sort of loyalty to said party at any point. Any comparisons between the two, especially today's President, is nothing more than scare tactics and personal attacks comparing a current leader to a man that is universally unpopular. It's classic Godwin's law, and it pretty much shows that anyone making such a comparison is fundamentally incapable of discussing true issues.

NAZI Germany could have never been the threat they became without the help of US corporations. Prescott was part of that help, no matter how you try to spin it.

[cap'n queasy]

No matter how clear the evidence is they will never quit trying.

[The Comrade]

Claudia Schiffer wrote: Professor Jones is totaly credible and he's puting his career on the line :roll: .
Beside what ever we present you, you will dismiss it. :roll: :roll: :roll:

he isn't even studying inside his field. engineering and chemistry research is not something a physicist should be doing.