Political Crossfire Forums

[britboy]

I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands. Or heaven above some victim may 'visit' a prisoner to blow his brains out.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law? For their personal defence in a dangerous environment?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

Guns are already banned in many public places. Courthouses, bars, etc.

[britboy]

perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

Guns are already banned in many public places. Courthouses, bars, etc.

So you agree with these bans or think rights are being eroded? Is there anywhere guns are currently banned which you think is a little harsh?

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

Guns are already banned in many public places. Courthouses, bars, etc.

So you agree with these bans or think rights are being eroded? Is there anywhere guns are currently banned which you think is a little harsh?

FL law bans guns in the following places:
any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station
any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse
any courtroom*
any polling place
any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district
any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof
any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms
any school administration building
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption*
any elementary or secondary school facility
any area technical center
any college or university facility*
inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*
any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law


Those all seem reasonable to me.

[britboy]

perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

Guns are already banned in many public places. Courthouses, bars, etc.

So you agree with these bans or think rights are being eroded? Is there anywhere guns are currently banned which you think is a little harsh?

FL law bans guns in the following places:
any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station
any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse
any courtroom*
any polling place
any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district
any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof
any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms
any school administration building
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption*
any elementary or secondary school facility
any area technical center
any college or university facility*
inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*
any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law


Those all seem reasonable to me.

Would you add any?

I'd add

Sporting events
Strike 'picket lines'
Public demonstrations
Churches/Mosques etc.

As these are places I reckon you really don't want gun carriers. What do you think? Should people be allowed to carry a loaded weapon into the opening ceremony of the Olympics? (Apologies if that is covered somehow in your original list)

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

Guns are already banned in many public places. Courthouses, bars, etc.

So you agree with these bans or think rights are being eroded? Is there anywhere guns are currently banned which you think is a little harsh?

FL law bans guns in the following places:
any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station
any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse
any courtroom*
any polling place
any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district
any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof
any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms
any school administration building
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption*
any elementary or secondary school facility
any area technical center
any college or university facility*
inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*
any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law


Those all seem reasonable to me.

Would you add any?

I'd add

Sporting events
Strike 'picket lines'
Public demonstrations
Churches/Mosques etc.

As these are places I reckon you really don't want gun carriers. What do you think? Should people be allowed to carry a loaded weapon into the opening ceremony of the Olympics? (Apologies if that is covered somehow in your original list)

Sporting events are covered (unless they are gun-related events). Churches or mosques should be up to the church/mosque, the government should have no say.

[lilwolf]

Britboy, the argument of guns in prisons by visitors is a lame duck. All 50 states have laws that prohibit such. Also, prisons are not by real defination a public place.

All of the items listed by perdidochas are accurate, and that applies to just about any state you look at.

I wear my gun wherever I want because of my business and because I am a CCW holder and a licensed FFL dealer. I can and have been just about anywhere I have wanted to wear it.
Now when I go out to an area say a prison (not lately) I would not wear it and rightly so, because it is against the law. Common sense there.
I also have to clear it and show my CCW before I get through the federal check point at the federal building, but I still wear it. I wear it at the bank , the airport, the football game if i choose.
Laws are laws yes but some are just common snese.

[cap'n queasy]

britboy wrote: I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands. Or heaven above some victim may 'visit' a prisoner to blow his brains out.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law? For their personal defence in a dangerous environment?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

Don't you think there's some danger in the armed visitor trying to break their loved one out of prison?

:lol:
I don't know quite what to say about that. :-D

[britboy]

lilwolf wrote: Britboy, the argument of guns in prisons by visitors is a lame duck. All 50 states have laws that prohibit such. Also, prisons are not by real defination a public place.

All of the items listed by perdidochas are accurate, and that applies to just about any state you look at.

I wear my gun wherever I want because of my business and because I am a CCW holder and a licensed FFL dealer. I can and have been just about anywhere I have wanted to wear it.
Now when I go out to an area say a prison (not lately) I would not wear it and rightly so, because it is against the law. Common sense there.
I also have to clear it and show my CCW before I get through the federal check point at the federal building, but I still wear it. I wear it at the bank , the airport, the football game if i choose.
Laws are laws yes but some are just common snese.


It's more interesting stating what you believe the law should be then just stating what it is.

I mean -- do you agree with exactly how the law is stated where you live 100%? (Bit of a coincedence isn't it?).

Do you really, really think it's a good idea to take your weapon to the football game? Don't you think - like in FL - this should be illegal?

[britboy]

cap'n queasy wrote: britboy wrote: I believe (perhaps incorrectly) a prison is public owned.

For this reason, should it not be considered illegal to ban the public from carrying guns into prisons whilst visiting their loved ones?

BUT the other side of the coin is some are likely to end up (illegally) in prisoners hands. Or heaven above some victim may 'visit' a prisoner to blow his brains out.

Whats your take? Should the 100% innocent member of the public be allowed to carry a loaded Walter PPK into a prison whilst visiting his nasty brother in law? For their personal defence in a dangerous environment?

I think it's difficult -- if you ban it -- surely you open the door to banning in many other public places?

Don't you think there's some danger in the armed visitor trying to break their loved one out of prison?

:lol:
I don't know quite what to say about that. :-D

No I don't think 1 person armed with a gun would be enough to successfully be able to break someone out of prison though I may be mistaken.

The IRA broke people out of prison before using a helicopter and exactly zero guns! (Must find the link -- it was all on TV, fantastic viewing!) this was back in the 80s I think.

[lilwolf]

britboy wrote: lilwolf wrote: Britboy, the argument of guns in prisons by visitors is a lame duck. All 50 states have laws that prohibit such. Also, prisons are not by real defination a public place.

All of the items listed by perdidochas are accurate, and that applies to just about any state you look at.

I wear my gun wherever I want because of my business and because I am a CCW holder and a licensed FFL dealer. I can and have been just about anywhere I have wanted to wear it.
Now when I go out to an area say a prison (not lately) I would not wear it and rightly so, because it is against the law. Common sense there.
I also have to clear it and show my CCW before I get through the federal check point at the federal building, but I still wear it. I wear it at the bank , the airport, the football game if i choose.
Laws are laws yes but some are just common snese.


It's more interesting stating what you believe the law should be then just stating what it is.

I mean -- do you agree with exactly how the law is stated where you live 100%? (Bit of a coincedence isn't it?).

Do you really, really think it's a good idea to take your weapon to the football game? Don't you think - like in FL - this should be illegal?


I agree with the restrictions that are in place and if that refers to laws with regards to handguns, the laws are good as they are. I am not stating what the laws should be at all they are what they are and they are good sound laws that govern certain things.
I have worn my weapon to football games yes, and I am legal to do so.
I am not going to fall for the florida thing over any state. There ought to be laws that govern guns in public places. but here is where you are messing up britboy. To carry a handgun in the first place (legally) you have to have a valid CCW permit. If you have that you have met certain criteria and you can do so. When you go to a game or whatever and you are scanned or wanded, I always show my permit first and then they do their thing and I go on. I have never had a problem at all. :-D

[britboy]

lilwolf wrote: britboy wrote: lilwolf wrote: Britboy, the argument of guns in prisons by visitors is a lame duck. All 50 states have laws that prohibit such. Also, prisons are not by real defination a public place.

All of the items listed by perdidochas are accurate, and that applies to just about any state you look at.

I wear my gun wherever I want because of my business and because I am a CCW holder and a licensed FFL dealer. I can and have been just about anywhere I have wanted to wear it.
Now when I go out to an area say a prison (not lately) I would not wear it and rightly so, because it is against the law. Common sense there.
I also have to clear it and show my CCW before I get through the federal check point at the federal building, but I still wear it. I wear it at the bank , the airport, the football game if i choose.
Laws are laws yes but some are just common snese.


It's more interesting stating what you believe the law should be then just stating what it is.

I mean -- do you agree with exactly how the law is stated where you live 100%? (Bit of a coincedence isn't it?).

Do you really, really think it's a good idea to take your weapon to the football game? Don't you think - like in FL - this should be illegal?


I agree with the restrictions that are in place and if that refers to laws with regards to handguns, the laws are good as they are. I am not stating what the laws should be at all they are what they are and they are good sound laws that govern certain things.
I have worn my weapon to football games yes, and I am legal to do so.
I am not going to fall for the florida thing over any state. There ought to be laws that govern guns in public places. but here is where you are messing up britboy. To carry a handgun in the first place (legally) you have to have a valid CCW permit. If you have that you have met certain criteria and you can do so. When you go to a game or whatever and you are scanned or wanded, I always show my permit first and then they do their thing and I go on. I have never had a problem at all. :-D


Apologies long post coming up ...

Well you are exceptionally, exceptionally lucky lilwolf.

You live in probably the one place in the entire world that has gun control legislation exactly how you like it. It's perfect for you. Absolutely zero needs changed. Virtually every other place in the world, including places in your own country like FL, need changing. You, PURELY BY COINCEDENCE, are living with 100% perfect legislation for you.

Me, I don't buy it. I think if you had been bought up with gun control laws, and you have been fashioned to believe those to be correct. I believe if you were bought up and hadn't seen a gun in the first 20 years of your life, you wouldn't want to carry one.

Don't worry, it's a very,very common thing to be a product of your environment (notice how more Americans are pro-gun then English? Do you REALLY believe it's all one big coincedence?). For example, in England most people AGREE with buying a license to own a TV! Can you believe that? The majority of people agree with it. Because we've always had to do it. It's a lot, lot easier to go along and agree with the system that's been forced upon you. Agreeing with it 100% is the easiest path of all. Simply be a product of the environment in which you are placed, and trundle through life without worrying about much at all -- brilliant!

In India the majority of the population agree with arranged marriages. In Africa a great deal of people agree with female circumcision. In Japan they agree the hunting and eating of Whales is a good thing.

However other cultures believe these are quite radical policies.

Now, you can choose to believe me or not, but choosing to go watch a football game with a loaded weapon IS A RADICAL DECISION. No matter how normal it seems to you, I would rate it as about as radical decision as in a different cluture someone choosing to send their daughter to an arranged marriage. In a different culture someone choosing to spend 14 hours a day studying the Koran.

Just because you're used to something, doesn't make it right. I think your decision making process is being completely warped by the environment you've been bought up in. Live in the UK for 10 years and tell me then you really miss carrying a loaded weapon around!

[RooK]

britboy wrote: I think your decision making process is being completely warped by the environment you've been bought up in. Live in the UK for 10 years and tell me then you really miss carrying a loaded weapon around!

Pot calling the kettle black. :bnghd:

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: lilwolf wrote: Britboy, the argument of guns in prisons by visitors is a lame duck. All 50 states have laws that prohibit such. Also, prisons are not by real defination a public place.

All of the items listed by perdidochas are accurate, and that applies to just about any state you look at.

I wear my gun wherever I want because of my business and because I am a CCW holder and a licensed FFL dealer. I can and have been just about anywhere I have wanted to wear it.
Now when I go out to an area say a prison (not lately) I would not wear it and rightly so, because it is against the law. Common sense there.
I also have to clear it and show my CCW before I get through the federal check point at the federal building, but I still wear it. I wear it at the bank , the airport, the football game if i choose.
Laws are laws yes but some are just common snese.


It's more interesting stating what you believe the law should be then just stating what it is.

I mean -- do you agree with exactly how the law is stated where you live 100%? (Bit of a coincedence isn't it?).

Do you really, really think it's a good idea to take your weapon to the football game? Don't you think - like in FL - this should be illegal?

I've got two opinions on it. The first is that FL law on this is ok. However, on thinking about it, it's not. Some stadiums are in some pretty rough areas. I know for a fact that the Orange Bowl in Miami is in a rough neighborhood (I lived about 5 miles away). Also, Atlanta's baseball stadium is in a very rough neighborhood. Why should I be forced to make myself a possible victim, just because I happen to be watching a ball game. In America, for the most part, we don't have the whole soccer hooligan phenom. When I was a high school teacher at a rough high school, I went to some ball games in very rough stadiums. Again, why should I have had to be disarmed to go to those? Criminals in that area are certainly not disarming themselves and don't have an agreement to not prey on people going to the ball games.

[lilwolf]

I am fortunate in that the laws work well in my state and all others. They do not work however for me they work for americans as a group. See, those are called VOTERS . The voters decide and it gets done most of the time.
The zero needing changed as you sarcastically refer to it as. The laws are keeping the guns out of the hands of bad guys when they try to purchase a weapon from a legal source and that is a good thing. I don't want to change that not one bit and no one with a lick of common sense would want that changed.
When i was growing up I had some of the best gun control laws you can imagine...they were called parents that taught me and raised me to respect and understand weapons. When you are taught right and the fears of handguns is removed you see things differently. I was raised among things to believe that gun is loaded even if it is not. You do not point a gun at a person or target unless you intend to use it, and no matter what the world thinks it is your right to own this gun.

A product of my environment? I don't see it that way at all. I see it more as the environment that I was brought up in as a good and decent school of common snese, and responsibility.
It might be easier to go along with the system that has been forced upon you...but remember this "Apathy kills" If you choose to go along with something that is forced upon you then you are one of several things:
Do not take this as a personal attack okay because it is not intended to be that,It is not you specifically,
1. a coward 2. a person with no interest in his rights 3. a sheeple (people that choose to be led to the slaughter 4. just plain apathetic.

I never said going to the football game with a loaded weapon is a normal decision. I do take my gun with me because it is my rights to do so if I chose. Being legal to do so is why I can do it. I do not do it all the time but when I do I am within the law to do so.

No, I never would want to live in the UK. Just having to go there a few times a year is enough. For one to many of the folks there are apathetic and have an attitude of "well that's the way it is and why should I fight the system". Not for me. Also to damn wet. :lol:

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: Me, I don't buy it. I think if you had been bought up with gun control laws, and you have been fashioned to believe those to be correct. I believe if you were bought up and hadn't seen a gun in the first 20 years of your life, you wouldn't want to carry one.

And I believe that if you were brought up shooting guns, and lived in a tough neighborhood, and had the opportunity to carry concealed, you would want to. My argument is as valid as yours.

D britboy wrote: on't worry, it's a very,very common thing to be a product of your environment (notice how more Americans are pro-gun then English? Do you REALLY believe it's all one big coincedence?). For example, in England most people AGREE with buying a license to own a TV! Can you believe that? The majority of people agree with it. Because we've always had to do it. It's a lot, lot easier to go along and agree with the system that's been forced upon you. Agreeing with it 100% is the easiest path of all. Simply be a product of the environment in which you are placed, and trundle through life without worrying about much at all -- brilliant!

Why agree with something that is inherently anti-liberty?

britboy wrote: In India the majority of the population agree with arranged marriages. In Africa a great deal of people agree with female circumcision. In Japan they agree the hunting and eating of Whales is a good thing.

Well, whale meat is supposed to taste pretty good :-)

britboy wrote: However other cultures believe these are quite radical policies.

Now, you can choose to believe me or not, but choosing to go watch a football game with a loaded weapon IS A RADICAL DECISION. No matter how normal it seems to you, I would rate it as about as radical decision as in a different cluture someone choosing to send their daughter to an arranged marriage. In a different culture someone choosing to spend 14 hours a day studying the Koran.

How is it bad for an otherwise peace-loving person to be allowed to carry a gun to a ball game? If I had a gun at a ball game, nobody there would be in any more danger than if I didn't have the gun. I'm a pretty mild-mannered guy, and having a gun on my hip wouldn't change that.

britboy wrote: Just because you're used to something, doesn't make it right. I think your decision making process is being completely warped by the environment you've been bought up in. Live in the UK for 10 years and tell me then you really miss carrying a loaded weapon around!

Exactly, just because you're used to being an unarmed victim doesn't mean it's right.......

I don't carry, and never have carryied, a loaded weapon outside of hunting. I've never really felt the need. That said, I don't mind other law-abiding citizens carrying their guns. It doesn't scare me a bit that Lilwolf, or my father, or anybody I've ever met with a CCW have a concealed weapon. The people I'm worried about with weapons would never go through the trouble of getting a CCW, and would carry anybody. I would imagine that if I moved to ANY big city, I would want to carry a loaded weapon, and would miss it if I had previously had the opportunity to carry concealed. I know the last time I visited LA, I wish that I could have been armed. It was the first time I've known that I was being stalked by a criminal. It was an unnerving experience, especially considering I was chaperoning three high school students at the time.

[lilwolf]

On a foot note here Britboy...the hassles and hoops you have to go through to get a CCW are difficult and strict. That's why not everyone can get one....The main pre-requisite that I notice is ....why do you need it?

You better have a good reason in my state or you do not get it.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

britboy wrote:
Live in the UK for 10 years and tell me then you really miss carrying a loaded weapon around!

I read that one is six times more likely to get mugged in London than in New York City.

I would carry a knife if I could not get a gun.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

lilwolf wrote: On a foot note here Britboy...the hassles and hoops you have to go through to get a CCW are difficult and strict. That's why not everyone can get one....The main pre-requisite that I notice is ....why do you need it?

You better have a good reason in my state or you do not get it.


Here in Washington State they take fingerprints and do a background check. If you got a clean record, they mail it to you.

I prefer the system in Vermont. You can carry a weapon there and they don't issue permits.

[RooK]

You can open carry a gun in KY without license or permit, so I see no need to buy a CCW permit for myself at any time in the near future.