Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: I hope you realize millions of evangelicals lost their lives to the Nicolaitans, as well.

Who? These guys?

prometeus wrote: Oh come on, you can do better than that. You mean to tell me that anyone who can read and picks up the book, in any language, will wholly understand it? Anyone who never heard any of it before? Anyone will clearly know what the "apparent" contradictions mean?

Apparent contradictions means that they are contradictions at first sight, but when one takes a look at the context of the verse by reading the entire chapter of the Koran that the verse is contained in? Arabic has a one-to-many correspondence when it comes to translating to English: one word in Arabic, used in different contexts, can be translated into many words in English (that's the idea of symbolism in linguistics). The same can be said of English to Arabic and Hebrew to/from English.

Quote: Since the terms "Jew" and "Zionist" are used so much, could one of the Muslim members clarify what it is that 'they' define as "Jew" and "Zionist" in terms of reilgious, national and political meaning/significance so that when used, there will not be confusion. Thanks.

Thanks for bringing it up. The words "Jew" (Yahudi) and "Zionist" (Sahyuni) have been used interchangeably in some speeches conducted by imams of many mosques in the MidEast. What they usually refer to are Zionists, not Jews, though I agree that this MUST change.

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: I hope you realize millions of evangelicals lost their lives to the Nicolaitans, as well.

Who? These guys?

prometeus wrote: Oh come on, you can do better than that. You mean to tell me that anyone who can read and picks up the book, in any language, will wholly understand it? Anyone who never heard any of it before? Anyone will clearly know what the "apparent" contradictions mean?

Apparent contradictions means that they are contradictions at first sight, but when one takes a look at the context of the verse by reading the entire chapter of the Koran that the verse is contained in? Arabic has a one-to-many correspondence when it comes to translating to English: one word in Arabic, used in different contexts, can be translated into many words in English (that's the idea of symbolism in linguistics). The same can be said of English to Arabic and Hebrew to/from English.

Quote: Since the terms "Jew" and "Zionist" are used so much, could one of the Muslim members clarify what it is that 'they' define as "Jew" and "Zionist" in terms of reilgious, national and political meaning/significance so that when used, there will not be confusion. Thanks.

Thanks for bringing it up. The words "Jew" (Yahudi) and "Zionist" (Sahyuni) have been used interchangeably in some speeches conducted by imams of many mosques in the MidEast. What they usually refer to are Zionists, not Jews, though I agree that this MUST change.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Who? These guys?


This definition from that article describes them well.
Quote: It is a symbolic name of a party that represents the hierarchy of a ruling class over the rest of the people, developing a pecking order of fleshly leadership.

[Saracen]

And for those who doubted the Koran... yes, the Koran did affirm that at once the Israelites were God's Chosen People, because they had many prophets and messengers who came from that tribe. However, the Koran also claims that the Children of Israel back then broke God's Covenant, and now a New Covenant has been made with all mankind... started by Jesus... ended at Muhammad (peace be upon them).

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: This definition from that article describes them well.

According to the article, these Nicolaitans lead lives of "unrestrained indulgence". Surely, you must not be referring to those who celebrate the material world and have no care whatsoever about the after-life? Yes, we believe that there are people like that, too, cap'n.

[prometeus]

Saracen wrote: prometeus wrote: Oh come on, you can do better than that. You mean to tell me that anyone who can read and picks up the book, in any language, will wholly understand it? Anyone who never heard any of it before? Anyone will clearly know what the "apparent" contradictions mean?

Apparent contradictions means that they are contradictions at first sight, but when one takes a look at the context of the verse by reading the entire chapter of the Koran that the verse is contained in? Arabic has a one-to-many correspondence when it comes to translating to English: one word in Arabic, used in different contexts, can be translated into many words in English (that's the idea of symbolism in linguistics). The same can be said of English to Arabic and Hebrew to/from English.

Quote: Since the terms "Jew" and "Zionist" are used so much, could one of the Muslim members clarify what it is that 'they' define as "Jew" and "Zionist" in terms of reilgious, national and political meaning/significance so that when used, there will not be confusion. Thanks.

Thanks for bringing it up. The words "Jew" (Yahudi) and "Zionist" (Sahyuni) have been used interchangeably in some speeches conducted by imams of many mosques in the MidEast. What they usually refer to are Zionists, not Jews, though I agree that this MUST change.

I am disapointed. You either did not get my question, or you are sidesteping the issue. I do not mean to criticize, but I'd appreciate an answer to the point.

So again the question is: You mean to tell me that anyone who can read and picks up the book, in any language, including Arabic, will wholly understand it? Anyone who never heard any of it before? Anyone will clearly know what the "apparent" contradictions mean?

Language issues are of no relevance, after all, if the Koran is the word of God, it is meant for ALL people, regardless of language, or are you implying that everyone should learn Arabic?

It is precisely the "loose" and "interchangeable" use of the words "Zionist" and "Jew" that prompted me to ask the question as to their meaning [defining] in the Muslim world.

So give it another try will you...

[Saracen]

prometeus wrote: So again the question is: You mean to tell me that anyone who can read and picks up the book, in any language, including Arabic, will wholly understand it? Anyone who never heard any of it before? Anyone will clearly know what the "apparent" contradictions mean?

The "apparent contradictions" appear because of context. One chapter of the Koran might include a verse that says "Kill the pagans", but if you look at the context of the verse, that is only during war when they attack you, and this was applied actually in a historical context, when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his disciples was assailed by these intolerant pagans.

Quote: Language issues are of no relevance, after all, if the Koran is the word of God, it is meant for ALL people, regardless of language, or are you implying that everyone should learn Arabic?

The Koran is best understood in Arabic. However, yes, the Koran is for ALL of Mankind. It should be noted, though, that along with translation comes context and explanation of the verses, because Arabic-to-English translation may include words that have lost meanings just because of the translation process.

Quote: It is precisely the "loose" and "interchangeable" use of the words "Zionist" and "Jew" that prompted me to ask the question as to their meaning [defining] in the Muslim world.

Whenever the word "Jew" was referred to in Islamic literature, it depended on context. When it was in times of peace (i.e. Islam's Golden Age), the Jews were People of the Book, and still are, like the Christians. In times of today, Jews have been looked down upon due to the inception of the State of Israel, which was born out of terrorism and racism. In response, the radical clerics have associated "Zionist" with "Jew" as the only thing that comes to their mind when they hear the word "Jew" in the present context is the nation of the Jews: Israel.

I'm not sidestepping. In the Muslim world, they are, as I said, used interchangeably, which is incorrect. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. This is apparently what much of the Muslim world does not understand.

Now, to get back to your question, reading the Koran, a book meant for all mankind, is not just "read". Like the Bible and Torah, it is not taken for its literal meaning. So, if you were to pick up a Koran in English and read it, you will understand it, provided that the translation of the Koran is as closest as possible to its Arabic meaning. I recommend Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translations, for they are quite close. As a matter of understanding, you can't understand the Koran without reading all of it. Regarding the contradictions, it depends on perception. Many people see contradictions in the Bible, and many others see contradictions in the Koran. Others don't. What I mean by "apparent" is that some verses talk of peace while others talk of violence. Take note that not all verses state complete ideas. You have to read the verses before and after it.

In short, when you read, you don't select verses and take them out of context, but you read from start to finish.

I hope that helps.

[prometeus]

I have to disagree with you. I simply do not believe that a man, any man, but especially those less fortunate who do not poses higher levels of education, upon picking up the Koran, even in their native Arabic language, would fully understand it upon reading it. That in turn clearly contradicts the notion that the Koran is "verbatim" the word of God. Just like the bible, which can be interpreted in so many ways.

By saying: "Like the Bible and Torah, it is not taken for its literal meaning." you are substantiating my notion that it has to be interpreted, thus leaving open the possibility of misinterpretation. Further more, if it is to be interpreted what is to say that one interpretation is the correct one over another?

[Saracen]

prometeus wrote: I have to disagree with you. I simply do not believe that a man, any man, but especially those less fortunate who do not poses higher levels of education, upon picking up the Koran, even in their native Arabic language, would fully understand it upon reading it. That in turn clearly contradicts the notion that the Koran is "verbatim" the word of God. Just like the bible, which can be interpreted in so many ways.

The Word of God becomes clear when you practice reading it over and over again to understand its full meaning. The Word of God isn't just part of the Bible or Koran, but the whole of both books.

Quote: By saying: "Like the Bible and Torah, it is not taken for its literal meaning." you are substantiating my notion that it has to be interpreted, thus leaving open the possibility of misinterpretation. Further more, if it is to be interpreted what is to say that one interpretation is the correct one over another?

The case of context and meaning is important. That makes interpretations different. You don't look at one verse without looking at all the verses related to the same situation.