Political Crossfire Forums

jeechoscopy · Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:08 am Post subject:

I believe all would be converted t Jesus faith -Islam. So, there would not a jew. If there would be a jew he would be antichrist and his followers those are considered jews.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16391 Location: On Earth

the sane voice wrote: this is from the site Saracen gave.im shocked at this.its a filthy lie!
what more lies can there be on this site i wonder.

The forceful expulsion of Palestinians from their land is not a lie.

capn queasy wrote: Buddy, when your religion tells you to kill anyone you are following antichrist.

The scriptures tell us that it will be antichrist that will try to destroy the restored Israel in the Eschaton.

Guess what?

That's radical Islam.

The restored Israel? What are you talking about? Israel's promises were already fulfilled in the Bible. ALL CAME TO PASS, cap'n. The Children of Israel broke God's covenant, and now they are just like anyone else. They're not "chosen" nor in any position above others. They are like us, and they are a nation that won't be eliminated, as all other nations will not. What I mean is that the Israel that is mentioned in the hadith that will be destroyed is the Zionist state that produces clearly an apartheid, sole state just for Jews. Muslims and Islam don't want that: they want a Palestine for all faiths.

Sorry, cap'n, but you're not convincing me that supporting Israel is the "right" thing.

tsunamicin wrote: . Muslims do many of the things they do because of their religion.

Incorrect. Muslims are not a collective entity; "they" do what "they" do because of what happens in "their" lives, or for political reasons. Religion is out of the question.

cap'n queasy wrote: Are you positive about that?

I mean one says "kill these people on this day" and the other says "these people will try to kill you on this day".

Which sounds like it comes from God?

No. The Koran and Hadith do NOT command us to kill Jews. It tells us of a prophecy that Jesus will destroy the Zionist state. PERIOD.

I don't THINK the Koran comes from God. Know why? Because the Koran is the Word of God.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

Saracen wrote: the sane voice wrote: this is from the site Saracen gave.im shocked at this.its a filthy lie!
what more lies can there be on this site i wonder.

The forceful expulsion of Palestinians from their land is not a lie.

capn queasy wrote: Buddy, when your religion tells you to kill anyone you are following antichrist.

The scriptures tell us that it will be antichrist that will try to destroy the restored Israel in the Eschaton.

Guess what?

That's radical Islam.

The restored Israel? What are you talking about? Israel's promises were already fulfilled in the Bible. ALL CAME TO PASS, cap'n. The Children of Israel broke God's covenant, and now they are just like anyone else. They're not "chosen" nor in any position above others. They are like us, and they are a nation that won't be eliminated, as all other nations will not. What I mean is that the Israel that is mentioned in the hadith that will be destroyed is the Zionist state that produces clearly an apartheid, sole state just for Jews. Muslims and Islam don't want that: they want a Palestine for all faiths.

Sorry, cap'n, but you're not convincing me that supporting Israel is the "right" thing.

tsunamicin wrote: . Muslims do many of the things they do because of their religion.

Incorrect. Muslims are not a collective entity; "they" do what "they" do because of what happens in "their" lives, or for political reasons. Religion is out of the question.

cap'n queasy wrote: Are you positive about that?

I mean one says "kill these people on this day" and the other says "these people will try to kill you on this day".

Which sounds like it comes from God?

No. The Koran and Hadith do NOT command us to kill Jews. It tells us of a prophecy that Jesus will destroy the Zionist state. PERIOD.

I don't THINK the Koran comes from God. Know why? Because the Koran is the Word of God.

:clap:

prometeus · Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 2984 Location: Over the edge

Saracen wrote: I don't THINK the Koran comes from God. Know why? Because the Koran is the Word of God.

You ever wonder why it took over 20 years to produce it? Or it it is so perfect why do Imams have interpret it to the masses, after all if it is the word of God it is intended for all. Better yet, why would God allow His word to be misinterpreted by anyone? God's word does not and would not need interpretation for anyone by anyone, at anytime. Ever consider why Christ gave us a 'new law' "LOVE ONE ANOTHER" It is simple, can not be misinterpreted, and it is a reflection of God's love for His creation.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16391 Location: On Earth

prometeus wrote: You ever wonder why it took over 20 years to produce it? Or it it is so perfect why do Imams have interpret it to the masses, after all if it is the word of God it is intended for all. Better yet, why would God allow His word to be misinterpreted by anyone? God's word does not and would not need interpretation for anyone by anyone, at anytime. Ever consider why Christ gave us a 'new law' "LOVE ONE ANOTHER" It is simple, can not be misinterpreted, and it is a reflection of God's love for His creation.

His Word is not misinterpreted. There are explicit messages in the Koran and Hadith (especially Hadith Qudsi, which are words of God not recorded in the Koran) which preach for love and justice amongst all humans. Those who misinterpret His Word are lost because His Word isn't just one part of the Message, but it is the Whole Message (i.e. the ENTIRE Koran). His Message is Fulfilled when you read the entire Koran.

Muslima wrote: :clap:

Thanks, but no clapping, remember? :)

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8602 Location: Petah Tikva

I think it is silly to say the Quran advocates the death of the Jews and that Muslims are geared to annihilating us. For close to a 1,000 years it was the muslims who took us in, it was the Ottomans and the Caliphite who shielded us from the Crusaders as well as took us in from the Spanish and other inquisitions. The New Testiment says some equally insane things that will happen to Jews and Muslims and all other peoples who havent accepted Jesus Christ as I recall we all get burned in Judgement Day and we are cast aside or something like that. And to be frank Christians have killed 100x perhaps 1000x as many Jews in slaughters and massacres and oppressed us 100x perhaps 1000x more than the Muslims have. When Saladin took a Jewish aid de camp the Christians were butchering us and our muslim neighbors.

Today the Muslim world is more extreme and it has become a grave issue and very dangerous and in many cases very hostile to Israel and Jews in general. However to quote the Quran and cite it as evidence that the Muslims are all rabid anti-semites who beleive that we must be slaughtered is insane.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16391 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: I think it is silly to say the Quran advocates the death of the Jews and that Muslims are geared to annihilating us. For close to a 1,000 years it was the muslims who took us in, it was the Ottomans and the Caliphite who shielded us from the Crusaders as well as took us in from the Spanish and other inquisitions. The New Testiment says some equally insane things that will happen to Jews and Muslims and all other peoples who havent accepted Jesus Christ as I recall we all get burned in Judgement Day and we are cast aside or something like that. And to be frank Christians have killed 100x perhaps 1000x as many Jews in slaughters and massacres and oppressed us 100x perhaps 1000x more than the Muslims have. When Saladin took a Jewish aid de camp the Christians were butchering us and our muslim neighbors.

Today the Muslim world is more extreme and it has become a grave issue and very dangerous and in many cases very hostile to Israel and Jews in general. However to quote the Quran and cite it as evidence that the Muslims are all rabid anti-semites who beleive that we must be slaughtered is insane.

:clap: :tu:

Yes, and I can say the same about the Jews who supposedly "want to destroy Islam", even if they're Zionist. ;)

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: No. The Koran and Hadith do NOT command us to kill Jews. It tells us of a prophecy that Jesus will destroy the Zionist state. PERIOD

So does this prophecy use the term "zionist state", or describe the "zionist entity" somehow or does it say Jews?

Post the relevant text please and let's take a look at it.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16391 Location: On Earth

I already posted it on the first page of this thread, cap'n.

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Because, He is the king of the Jews and you can see what everyone wants to do to them in the end time.

What do you expect?

Well, with the Zionists who are killing off Palestinians, bulldozing their homes and making their lives a misery, all the while taking more of their land and dehumanizing them, what do you expect? You still want us to hug those who kill us and destroy our homes? I'm talking about Zionists, not Jews.

Btw, programmusic, you should review your link: MEMRI-TV is a propaganda source run by anti-Islamics and anti-Arab people. They have too frequently ommitted necessary detail, and cut footage in order to make a completely understandable piece of speech sound like hate and violence, which is how you perceive Islam... sadly. I already posted the evidence to this in previous threads, but I will do so now.

Jews have a favorable position in Islamic society along with Christians and other non-Muslims. Also, take a look at this link for the End of Times and how they will be portrayed in Islam. Lastly:

IslamOnline wrote: It is proven (in the Prophetic Sunnah) that when the leader of Muslims, the Mahdi, comes to lead them in praying Fajr, `Isa Ibn Maryam (Jesus son of Mary) will come down to them, and the imam will step back so that `Isa can come forward and lead the prayer, but `Isa will put his hand on his back and say, “Go forward and lead the prayer, for the iqamah was given for you.” So their imam will lead them in prayer, and when he has finished, then `Isa will head towards the Dajjal, with whom will be seventy thousand Jews. When the Dajjal looks at him, he will melt like salt in water, and the Messiah `Isa (peace be upon him) will catch up with him at the gate of Lud (which is a town near Jerusalem) and kill him. Then Allah will cause the defeat of the Jews, and there will be nothing that Allah has created that a Jew hides behind, but Allah will cause that thing to speak. Rocks, trees, walls and animals will all say, “O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew, come and kill him!” — except for the box-thorn tree (al-gharqad), for it is one of their trees and will not speak.

The Jews mentioned in the Hadith are the Zionist Jews who FIGHT alongside the anti-Christ against the Muslims, not innocent Jews and Zionists.

So, in effect, the Jews who are fighting alongside the anti-Christ against the Muslims in Palestine, for the sole sake of liberating it, but not killing those who do not fight against the Muslims, makes the concept of the Zionist state, not innocent Zionists alone, as being the target for this battle against the anti-Christ. In effect, Jesus will restore peace to the Holy Land, where all people will live and dwell in it in peace.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Saracen wrote: I already posted it on the first page of this thread, cap'n.

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Because, He is the king of the Jews and you can see what everyone wants to do to them in the end time.

What do you expect?

Well, with the Zionists who are killing off Palestinians, bulldozing their homes and making their lives a misery, all the while taking more of their land and dehumanizing them, what do you expect? You still want us to hug those who kill us and destroy our homes? I'm talking about Zionists, not Jews.

Btw, programmusic, you should review your link: MEMRI-TV is a propaganda source run by anti-Islamics and anti-Arab people. They have too frequently ommitted necessary detail, and cut footage in order to make a completely understandable piece of speech sound like hate and violence, which is how you perceive Islam... sadly. I already posted the evidence to this in previous threads, but I will do so now.

Jews have a favorable position in Islamic society along with Christians and other non-Muslims. Also, take a look at this link for the End of Times and how they will be portrayed in Islam. Lastly:

IslamOnline wrote: It is proven (in the Prophetic Sunnah) that when the leader of Muslims, the Mahdi, comes to lead them in praying Fajr, `Isa Ibn Maryam (Jesus son of Mary) will come down to them, and the imam will step back so that `Isa can come forward and lead the prayer, but `Isa will put his hand on his back and say, “Go forward and lead the prayer, for the iqamah was given for you.” So their imam will lead them in prayer, and when he has finished, then `Isa will head towards the Dajjal, with whom will be seventy thousand Jews. When the Dajjal looks at him, he will melt like salt in water, and the Messiah `Isa (peace be upon him) will catch up with him at the gate of Lud (which is a town near Jerusalem) and kill him. Then Allah will cause the defeat of the Jews, and there will be nothing that Allah has created that a Jew hides behind, but Allah will cause that thing to speak. Rocks, trees, walls and animals will all say, “O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew, come and kill him!” — except for the box-thorn tree (al-gharqad), for it is one of their trees and will not speak.

The Jews mentioned in the Hadith are the Zionist Jews who FIGHT alongside the anti-Christ against the Muslims, not innocent Jews and Zionists.

So, in effect, the Jews who are fighting alongside the anti-Christ against the Muslims in Palestine, for the sole sake of liberating it, but not killing those who do not fight against the Muslims, makes the concept of the Zionist state, not innocent Zionists alone, as being the target for this battle against the anti-Christ. In effect, Jesus will restore peace to the Holy Land, where all people will live and dwell in it in peace.

There's nothing there mentioning any any Jews that aren't killed so I don't know how that the conclusion you present is justified by the text. In fact it clearly says there will be no place for a Jew to hide, except one type of tree.

Does that mean only Jews who hide behind this particular tree will be spared or something?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16391 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: There's nothing there mentioning any any Jews that aren't killed so I don't know how that the conclusion you present is justified by the text. In fact it clearly says there will be no place for a Jew to hide, except one type of tree.

Absence of mention does not mean mention of absence. This means that there will be Jews who will be spared.

Quote: Does that mean only Jews who hide behind this particular tree will be spared or something?

It means that the Zionist fighters who fight alongside the anti-Christ will seek refuge behind this tree, and will be protected as the tree will not speak out that there is a Jew (who happens to be the Zionist fighter who was seeking refuge).

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: And to be frank Christians have killed 100x perhaps 1000x as many Jews in slaughters and massacres and oppressed us 100x perhaps 1000x more than the Muslims have.

I hope you realize millions of evangelicals lost their lives to the Nicolaitans, as well.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Absence of mention does not mean mention of absence.

I'm afraid it does. That passage clearly states Jews, it says nothing about zionists, or Israel.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

Saracen wrote: Muslima wrote: :clap:

Thanks, but no clapping, remember? :)

:lol:

Okay!

prometeus · Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 2984 Location: Over the edge

Saracen wrote: His Word is not misinterpreted. There are explicit messages in the Koran and Hadith (especially Hadith Qudsi, which are words of God not recorded in the Koran) which preach for love and justice amongst all humans. Those who misinterpret His Word are lost because His Word isn't just one part of the Message, but it is the Whole Message (i.e. the ENTIRE Koran). His Message is Fulfilled when you read the entire Koran.

Oh come on, you can do better than that. You mean to tell me that anyone who can read and picks up the book, in any language, will wholly understand it? Anyone who never heard any of it before? Anyone will clearly know what the "apparent" contradictions mean?

prometeus · Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 2984 Location: Over the edge

Since the terms "Jew" and "Zionist" are used so much, could one of the Muslim members clarify what it is that 'they' define as "Jew" and "Zionist" in terms of reilgious, national and political meaning/significance so that when used, there will not be confusion. Thanks.

jeechoscopy · Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject:

superskippy wrote: I think it is silly to say the Quran advocates the death of the Jews and that Muslims are geared to annihilating us. For close to a 1,000 years it was the muslims who took us in, it was the Ottomans and the Caliphite who shielded us from the Crusaders as well as took us in from the Spanish and other inquisitions. The New Testiment says some equally insane things that will happen to Jews and Muslims and all other peoples who havent accepted Jesus Christ as I recall we all get burned in Judgement Day and we are cast aside or something like that. And to be frank Christians have killed 100x perhaps 1000x as many Jews in slaughters and massacres and oppressed us 100x perhaps 1000x more than the Muslims have. When Saladin took a Jewish aid de camp the Christians were butchering us and our muslim neighbors.

Today the Muslim world is more extreme and it has become a grave issue and very dangerous and in many cases very hostile to Israel and Jews in general. However to quote the Quran and cite it as evidence that the Muslims are all rabid anti-semites who beleive that we must be slaughtered is insane.

Nice to hear from you!!!

Pope John Paul apologized (...and ...)of all the Christian wrong doings against Jews; hope, one day, another John Paul would apology to Muslims.

I’m wondering what the Christian world is doing behind secularism.

Rather it is Zionism, I’m still, sympathetic in expressing my sorrow for the killing directly or indirectly, in the name of religions.

prometeus · Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 2984 Location: Over the edge

jeechoscopy wrote: ... I’m still, sympathetic in expressing my sorrow for the killing directly or indirectly, in the name of religions.

You are so right. It is sad that not more of us feel the same way. Life is God's greatest gift, even if a person is not appreciative of it. It is a very sad thing when any life is extinguished by ill deeds. All people should have a greater respect for all life, even of one's perceived enemy.

jeechoscopy · Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject:

prometeus wrote: jeechoscopy wrote: ... I’m still, sympathetic in expressing my sorrow for the killing directly or indirectly, in the name of religions.

You are so right. It is sad that not more of us feel the same way. Life is God's greatest gift, even if a person is not appreciative of it. It is a very sad thing when any life is extinguished by ill deeds. All people should have a greater respect for all life, even of one's perceived enemy.

Yes, bro.
It should, but "should" is only used with some dramatic ideas.
All "shoulds" seldom happen.
But it is courageous.

Thanks for the courage!!

prometeus · Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 2984 Location: Over the edge

You are right again. Let me put it then an other way:

All people must find a greater respect for all life, even of one's perceived enemy, if we are ever to have peace. It may sound as idealistic, but one must start somewhere.