Political Crossfire Forums

[Plato & Socrates]

Warfare is a horrid dirty old game. No matter what leading western nation you come from, you grow up to believe that your army is one of the best on the planet. If not the best, man for man. Well in Afghanistan, my British soldiers are fighting a extremely difficult war. According to reports, our boys are fighting pitch battles and skirmishes almost every day. Even though the armed forces declare moral is still very high, they admit the psychological toll of these men constantly fighting, will in the end inevitably sap moral.

The main problem the armed forces have is a lack of man-power. Even more alarming for the Generals and field Commanders, is the lack and ability of air support & cover for our troops. In a set of damaging leaked e-mails, field commander Major James Loden condemns the back-up from the RAF as "utterly, utterly useless" and said soldiers are shedding 'plenty of tears' over daily casualties. He also outlined concerns for two junior colleagues who "look very frightened and slow to react".
www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=406551&in_page_id=1770 news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1703801.ece news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1406342006 www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/22/uafghan.xml

In another of his leaked e-mails he goes on to say, from my point of view, controlling and directing air, arty and mors (artillery and mortars) is the best way to influence the battle," he wrote. "The RAF have been utterly, utterly useless. "Twice I have had Harriers in support when c/s on the ground have been in heavy contact, on one occasion trying to break clean. "A female harrier pilot 'couldn't identify the target', fired 2 phosphorous rockets that just missed our own compound so that we thought they were incoming RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades), and then strafed our perimeter missing the enemy by 200 metres." In "contrast" to the RAF, the US air force had been "fantastic", according to the major. "I would take an A-10 over Eurofighter any day,"

These isn’t the first grumblings of mis-content by the British armed forces in Afghanistan, primarily because of the lack of a clear mission objective, and more importantly because of a lack of shear man-power. In another astonishing attack, a senior army officer has claimed Britain is sustaining higher casualties in Afghanistan than official figures suggest. Major Jon Swift, who is serving in the lawless bandit country of the Helmand province, has questioned whether the public are being given a true picture of what is happening on the frontline.
He also appeared to condemn the operation in Afghanistan as "politically driven". His comments were published in the internal Royal Fusiliers newsletter and initially placed on a regimental website before being quickly removed. www.itn.co.uk/news/3587dc2035cf85183b47fb016e200349.html

To the disgrace of Europe, between the NATO allied European countries, we have almost 1,000,000 soldiers to call upon. The very fact the head of NATO command, cannot get the European countries to collectively between them contribute 2,500 soldiers, shows you the political mess this Afghanistan adventure has become.
And to think some people on this forum, actually believe Europe will confront Iran nuclear ambitions? :lol: Please.. :roll:

Afghanistan is becoming a mess. The Taliban are coming back, well trained and equipped to fight the NATO forces led by the British. When my prime minister was lording it up on holiday, at Cliff Richards mega mansion, on the beach by the Caribbean sea in Barbados, drinking pina-colda's and eating the finest food money can by, and sleeping on Chinese silk sheets with a 1000 weaves per-centimetre. Our boys are fighting life and death battles in Iraq and Afghanistan every day. These boy fight in Iraq, are risking there lives based on what is now fact "A pack of f**king lies" Everybody on this forum knows my views on wars. Yes I acknowledge wars must be fought sometimes, but only has a last resort, after all other channels have been exhausted. Not because some think tank wrote PNAC or out of ideology. Wars are absolutely f**king brutal, we owe it to our fellow citizens, to not put them in harms way unless we have absolutely no choice. On these criteria we failed them.

For all you warmongers and we know who you are, who think war is some game? Think again! I have very little respect for you armchair generals, who are so willing to send people to fight and die on your behalf. Afghanistan and Iraq is a mess of gargantuan proportions. Just today 30 people died due to a car bomb in Sadr city Iraq, and it won’t even be a thread on it in this forum. 30 deaths, 100 deaths and this forum including myself, doesn’t even deem it news worthy, because hearing and reading about these deaths are the norm. This is the situation, the so called enlightened west has brought upon these Muslim savages, who haven’t contributed much to western civilization. To actually think people believed in these wars to begin with, is the biggest joke of the 21st century.

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Warfare is a horrid dirty old game. No matter what leading western nation you come from, you grow up to believe that your army is one of the best on the planet. If not the best, man for man. Well in Afghanistan, my British soldiers are fighting a extremely difficult war. According to reports, our boys are fighting pitch battles and skirmishes almost every day. Even though the armed forces declare moral is still very high, they admit the psychological toll of these men constantly fighting, will in the end inevitably sap moral.

The main problem the armed forces have is a lack of man-power. Even more alarming for the Generals and field Commanders, is the lack and ability of air support & cover for our troops. In a set of damaging leaked e-mails, field commander Major James Loden condemns the back-up from the RAF as "utterly, utterly useless" and said soldiers are shedding 'plenty of tears' over daily casualties. He also outlined concerns for two junior colleagues who "look very frightened and slow to react".
www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=406551&in_page_id=1770 news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1703801.ece news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1406342006 www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/22/uafghan.xml

In another of his leaked e-mails he goes on to say, from my point of view, controlling and directing air, arty and mors (artillery and mortars) is the best way to influence the battle," he wrote. "The RAF have been utterly, utterly useless. "Twice I have had Harriers in support when c/s on the ground have been in heavy contact, on one occasion trying to break clean. "A female harrier pilot 'couldn't identify the target', fired 2 phosphorous rockets that just missed our own compound so that we thought they were incoming RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades), and then strafed our perimeter missing the enemy by 200 metres." In "contrast" to the RAF, the US air force had been "fantastic", according to the major. "I would take an A-10 over Eurofighter any day,"

These isn’t the first grumblings of mis-content by the British armed forces in Afghanistan, primarily because of the lack of a clear mission objective, and more importantly because of a lack of shear man-power. In another astonishing attack, a senior army officer has claimed Britain is sustaining higher casualties in Afghanistan than official figures suggest. Major Jon Swift, who is serving in the lawless bandit country of the Helmand province, has questioned whether the public are being given a true picture of what is happening on the frontline.
He also appeared to condemn the operation in Afghanistan as "politically driven". His comments were published in the internal Royal Fusiliers newsletter and initially placed on a regimental website before being quickly removed. www.itn.co.uk/news/3587dc2035cf85183b47fb016e200349.html

To the disgrace of Europe, between the NATO allied European countries, we have almost 1,000,000 soldiers to call upon. The very fact the head of NATO command, cannot get the European countries to collectively between them contribute 2,500 soldiers, shows you the political mess this Afghanistan adventure has become.
And to think some people on this forum, actually believe Europe will confront Iran nuclear ambitions? :lol: Please.. :roll:

Afghanistan is becoming a mess. The Taliban are coming back, well trained and equipped to fight the NATO forces led by the British. When my prime minister was lording it up on holiday, at Cliff Richards mega mansion, on the beach by the Caribbean sea in Barbados, drinking pina-colda's and eating the finest food money can by, and sleeping on Chinese silk sheets with a 1000 weaves per-centimetre. Our boys are fighting life and death battles in Iraq and Afghanistan every day. These boy fight in Iraq, are risking there lives based on what is now fact "A pack of f**king lies" Everybody on this forum knows my views on wars. Yes I acknowledge wars must be fought sometimes, but only has a last resort, after all other channels have been exhausted. Not because some think tank wrote PNAC or out of ideology. Wars are absolutely f**king brutal, we owe it to our fellow citizens, to not put them in harms way unless we have absolutely no choice. On these criteria we failed them.

For all you warmongers and we know who you are, who think war is some game? Think again! I have very little respect for you armchair generals, who are so willing to send people to fight and die on your behalf. Afghanistan and Iraq is a mess of gargantuan proportions. Just today 30 people died due to a car bomb in Sadr city Iraq, and it won’t even be a thread on it in this forum. 30 deaths, 100 deaths and this forum including myself, doesn’t even deem it news worthy, because hearing and reading about these deaths are the norm. This is the situation, the so called enlightened west has brought upon these Muslim savages, who haven’t contributed much to western civilization. To actually think people believed in these wars to begin with, is the biggest joke of the 21st century.


Well if destroying the terror training camps in Afghanistan is a joke!! :roll: :roll:

What is a joke is what you highlighted about NATO and the pathetic resources we have sent to deal with the crisis.

There shouldn't be 2,000 troops in Afghanistam there should be 20,000 at the very least.

As for the RAF being useless, well it's hardly surprising when they only have 8 planes there!! There should be 80! But then thanks to the government cutbacks we probably haven't got 80 planes!!

The biggest mistake in Iraq is thinking we could turn it into a democracy. That whole concept is alien to the people.

Either we back up our forces with proper equipment and resources to do the job or we should pull out and just let them kill each other because I'm sick of seeing our soldiers just having to sit there and dig in for their very lives.

The Afghan situation has made a mockery of NATO. Oh how the Iranians must laugh at our threats!!

[mendosan]

Theres enogth NATO troops in Afganistan there just in places where there not needed, the major works being done by the Canadians, Dutch and British, it dosen't make much sense we should concentrate troops where there needed,

Also, of course you would rather have an A-10 in support its a f***ing ground attack plane.

[lilwolf]

mendosan wrote: Theres enogth NATO troops in Afganistan there just in places where there not needed, the major works being done by the Canadians, Dutch and British, it dosen't make much sense we should concentrate troops where there needed,

Also, of course you would rather have an A-10 in support its a f***ing ground attack plane.


Hey do not forget us little americans over there in the crap hole with you.

I agree there should be many more troops and ten times the equipment. One of the biggest problems we as allies in this ugliness are facing is terrain and logistical support. I have spent time there and it is a very harsh and rugged place to be. We all need to have more control over our troops as a military should and a great deal less of the political correctness that is going on.

[Plato & Socrates]

MoscowMatt wrote: Well if destroying the terror training camps in Afghanistan is a joke!! :roll: :roll:

What is a joke is what you highlighted about NATO and the pathetic resources we have sent to deal with the crisis.

There shouldn't be 2,000 troops in Afghanistam there should be 20,000 at the very least.

As for the RAF being useless, well it's hardly surprising when they only have 8 planes there!! There should be 80! But then thanks to the government cutbacks we probably haven't got 80 planes!!

The biggest mistake in Iraq is thinking we could turn it into a democracy. That whole concept is alien to the people.

Either we back up our forces with proper equipment and resources to do the job or we should pull out and just let them kill each other because I'm sick of seeing our soldiers just having to sit there and dig in for their very lives.

The Afghan situation has made a mockery of NATO. Oh how the Iranians must laugh at our threats!!

When 9/11 happened and the whole world looked at the Afghan training camps. To the U.S's credit, they did give the Taliban, under the leadership of Mullah Omar, the chance to shut down the camps and hand over the terrorists especially Osama Bin-Laden. They chose not to. For that reason, I supported the cause for the U.S to rid the Taliban and of those training camps.

The question I have asked for a long time now, what is our goal? I don't see it has a defeat, if we cant get a functioning democracy in Afghanistan. With the aid of sat photo's and intelligence, if we see terrorist bases being operated, with air-strikes we take them out. We find opium fields, with air-strikes we take them out.
Our goals have to be realistic. There is no way on this earth, with the hold the Taliban have on the population. That we can impose a democracy on them. This is just plane madness, and I have said this from the beginning.
Not all nations and people move at the same rate. All we can do in Afghanistan is encourage, support and help facilitate internal grass-roots democracy to grow. Because this push for Democracy is coming from the west, this is just another reason why it is being rejected, plus the opium trade is too lucrative.

Whether it is the conservatives or Labour, the cutting of military spending to bolster public spending, seems to be the norm. When you have wankers like 2 Jags Prescott, and you see our armed forces without the necessary equipment, it makes my blood boil. The amount of planes and helicopters we have on the ground there in Helmand province is a joke.

The British government is too used to fighting foreign wars on the cheap. Gone are the days when we British could arm a few squaddies with basic weapons and tons of ammunition, send them off to Africa, Asia, or the far-east, fire our guns at a few thousand badly armed or machete wielding locals, come home has hero's, some get the Victoria cross. the the General gets a knight-hood, job well done, God save the Queen.

The Taliban have comeback well trained, equipped (some even with night-vision) and ready to fight to the death. Our boys need every single advantage they can have. To short change them by giving them inadequate air cover is a disgrace. If we are not going to back up our boys, then we should just pull out, we need a clear strategy and we just don't have that at the moment.

Quote: The Afghan situation has made a mockery of NATO. Oh how the Iranians must laugh at our threats!!
Its just self interests Moscowmatt. Countries like France are just playing the long game here. They have a large Muslim population, with massive social & political problems to deal with. They want Iranian oil contracts. In there favour they will say, "look Iran, we never sent troops to kill your fellow Muslims in Afghanistan. We also was against the war in Iraq. We batted for you Iran, and told the USA & UK that sanctions wont work against you and that there not worth it" When this all blows over Iran will say"thank you France, you was a friend to Iran in her time of need, here's the drilling rights for E.L.F petroleum to drill and refine oil in province X in southern Iran, by the way its worth £2 Billion a year.

Do you know how much of that hypothetical £2 billion would be in French corporation tax for the French treasury? 34.33% www.triplet.com/40-10_corporate/40-70_taxlaw.asp Thats roughly £700 million. per year. Now you know why countries like France make a mockery of NATO. This is called the real world Moscowmatt or western civilization. This is just a game played by the big boys. ethics and morals have nothing to do with it, in fact to these guys it is a hinderence.

[Village Idiot]

Plato & Socrates wrote:
Quote: The Afghan situation has made a mockery of NATO. Oh how the Iranians must laugh at our threats!!
Its just self interests Moscowmatt. Countries like France are just playing the long game here. They have a large Muslim population, with massive social & political problems to deal with. They want Iranian oil contracts. In there favour they will say, "look Iran, we never sent troops to kill your fellow Muslims in Afghanistan. We also was against the war in Iraq. We batted for you Iran, and told the USA & UK that sanctions wont work against you and that there not worth it" When this all blows over Iran will say"thank you France, you was a friend to Iran in her time of need, here's the drilling rights for E.L.F petroleum to drill and refine oil in province X in southern Iran, by the way its worth £2 Billion a year.

Do you know how much of that hypothetical £2 billion would be in French corporation tax for the French treasury? 34.33% www.triplet.com/40-10_corporate/40-70_taxlaw.asp Thats roughly £700 million. per year. Now you know why countries like France make a mockery of NATO. This is called the real world Moscowmatt or western civilization. This is just a game played by the big boys. ethics and morals have nothing to do with it, in fact to these guys it is a hinderence.

All the major governments play this game, it is not only unique to France. China has been learning from our standards, of in the national interest and have joined the club. They will join Russia and veto any sanctions or military action wanted by the U.S.
China's booming economy needs energy, and positioning herself with Iran, is a source of the energy requirements she needs.
Linking the French position with there N.A.T.O stance regarding troops and there stance against Iran. ie: lack of it, shows the bigger picture. This is a game for the big boys, moral and ethics only matter when the Europeans are at risk. The same goes for the United States. Since there not at risk i do not think any European nation is even remotely interested in Iran, except to pay lip service to the problem on the international scene.

[antonio62]

It's simply that troops are to thin on the ground. We need more than an extra 2500 troops to fully police Afghanistan. We also have to remember that although British casualties have been comparatively high for every British soldier killed hundreds of enemy fighters have been killed.

[slitedeviance]

Village Idiot wrote: Since there not at risk i do not think any European nation is even remotely interested in Iran, except to pay lip service to the problem on the international scene.

Actually, Iran with nuclear weapons acting as a destablising force would really, really endanger certain sections of the EU.

Take a wider look at the picture, Iran has the potential (dependant on how the US plays out the next few steps in Iraq) to support the Shi'a in forming either a Shiite block, or engaging in a massive civil war involving Sunni's and Kurds.

If the Kurds are seriously attacked in the course of a civil war, heaven knows what will happen in the south of Turkey. Would they try and declare autonomy and independance? Possibly, this would in turn lead to a civil war in Turkey, and that's not a nice prospect.

The EU is facing a far greater threat from Iran and the ME situation than the US.