Political Crossfire Forums

[mr_happy]

summarily brutalized? Hey, buddy, go back to soviet russia and the chechnyans, what about the kurds, what about the khmer rouge in Cambodia? Those are reall examples of brutalization. Israel must really suck at brutalizing if the Palestinians still exist. No one denies that ISrael could depopulate Gaza in an instant. Brutalized can be applied to the way the PA treats ISraelis and its own citizens. Funny, ISrael kills three civillians and a militant at the same time, and ISrael gets s**t despite the fact that the civillians were surrounding the militant. The PA kills palestinian "collaborators" (liberals to you and me) and nobody gives a damn. What about the Iraqis killing gay boys? No one seems to care or call that bruatlization. Funny, Palestinians can kill school children in an act of "resistance" against a incovenience at worst, but when Iraqis get killed nobody says that they can go and kill American school children. I love the anti-ISraeli logic.

[fiction416]

Secondary Oak wrote:

Individual groups?

Yes, I was referring to the time since Hamas was elected into power. Since then, as i understand it, smaller factions have been responsible for the awful rocket attacks.

Secondary Oak wrote:
Patience?

Again, I was referring to the time since Israel pulled out of Gaza.


----


IMO, regardless of the process that take us to peace in that region, once it is agreed up, whatever it turns out to be; I believe that there will be st-bakcs along the way, that range from rocket attacks, children being shot, etc... There will need to be alot of patience when that times comes. Cooler heads will need to prevail & one side, will have to be the moral leader.

I hope that can be Israel, with a doctrine of Non-Violence, no matter what they are confronted with.

Israel is a world leader on many fronts, I hope this can another - simply becasue I have more faith in Israel, to be the moral leader.

[Saracen]

Jonathan Cook wrote: Nazareth hit the international headlines for the first time in this vicious war being waged by Israel mostly on Lebanese civilians. Reporter Matthew Price, corseted in a blue flak jacket in Haifa, told BBC viewers that for the first time Hizbullah had targeted Nazareth late on Sunday. “Nazareth is a mostly Christian town”, he added, managing to cram into a single sentence of a few words two factual mistakes and a disturbing hint of incitement.

Whatever the precision of its rockets (and Nazareth’s residents are certainly worried enough about that), Hizbullah struck not at Nazareth but at a site some distance from Nazareth -- a site of strategic significance to Israel, though I cannot say more than that as we are now officially under martial law in the country’s north.

Matthew Price was also wrong about Nazareth being a “mostly Christian town”. During the 1948 war in which Israel’s army ethnically cleansed much of the surrounding area of Palestinians, Muslim villagers fled to Nazareth in search of sanctuary. Today, two-thirds of the city’s 75,000 inhabitants are Muslim -- or at least they are by the religious classification system imposed on all citizens by the Israeli authorities.

Which brings us to the nasty element of incitement from our BBC reporter.

Several Israeli armaments factories and storage depots have been built close by Arab communities in the north of Israel, possibly in the hope that by locating them there Arab regimes will be deterred from attacking Israel’s enormous armory. In other words, the inhabitants of several of Israel’s Arab towns and villages have been turned into collective human shields -- protection for Israel’s war machine.

Before the strike close to Nazareth late on Sunday night, several Arab villages in the north had been hit by Hizbullah rockets trying to reach these factories. No one at the BBC saw the need to mention these attacks nor the fact that “mostly Muslim” villages had been hit. So why did the strike against Nazareth -- and its mistaken Christian status -- became part of the story for the BBC?

Because Israel wants to portray Hizbullah, and its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, as a crazed Islamic militia, as fanatical Muslims who hate Jews and Christians with equal vehemence. This is all part of Israel’s claim that it is fighting George Bush’s “war on terror”. Predictably, the BBC obliged by regurgitating this piece of racist nonsense.

If anybody still doubts that Israel is shaping the news agenda of broadcasters like the BBC, here was as good as the proof.

* * *

According to the jingoistic Jerusalem Post, the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office and the army are delirious at their success in dictating the headlines and tone of foreign news broadcasts.

Ehud Olmert’s media adviser, Assif Shariv, told the Post that the international media were interviewing Israeli spokespeople four times as much as spokespeople for the Palestinians and Lebanese. Another government adviser, Gideon Meir, boasted: “We have never had it so good. The hasbara [propaganda] effort is a well-oiled machine."

Which may explain why we know so little about what is happening in Lebanon and Gaza -- and why we know so little about what is happening inside Israel too.

To remind you, I, like other residents of northern Israel, am under martial law. As are the foreign journalists -- and in addition they are required to submit their copy to the military censor. So all I can tell you, without breaking the law, is that you are not hearing the entire picture of what has been happening here in the Galilee.

Certainly, a piece of news that I doubt you will hear from the foreign media, although bravely the liberal Hebrew media has been drawing attention to the matter, is that the “only democracy in the Middle East” has all but silenced al-Jazeera from reporting inside Israel.

The reason is clear: until recently al-Jazeera had been running rings around the local and foreign press.

Al-Jazeera is the Arab world’s most serious and popular news gatherer, and essential viewing for anyone who wants to get a realistic idea of the news from both sides of the border. When I heard the missile strike close by Nazareth on Sunday night, al-Jazeera told me what had happened a full half hour before the Israeli media, and a day before my colleague Matthew Price.

How do they do it? Because most of their staff in Israel are Israeli citizens, as well as being Palestinian Arabs. Their journalists belong to the forgotten fifth of the Israeli population whose citizenship is Israeli but whose nationality is Palestinian.

So not only do al-Jazeera’s reporters know the northern patch of Israel like home ground (because it is home ground) but they are also not cravenly waiting for the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office and army’s spokesman to tell them what is going on.

Watching al-Jazeera has been a revelation: it has dedicated a substantial portion of its coverage to events inside Israel as well as in Lebanon, in stark contrast to Israeli broadcasters who rarely use any of the footage from Lebanon.

Similarly, al-Jazeera faithfully translated Ehud Olmert’s speech word for word into Arabic, and then included a lengthy analysis from a local correspondent for its viewers. Israeli broadcasters, on the other hand, repeatedly mistranslated the televised words of Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah into Hebrew and English, removing context and his calls for negotiation.

Similar misrepresentations of Nasrallah’s position in the foreign media presumably reflected their over-reliance on the Israeli broadcasters.

But al-Jazeera’s coverage inside Israel -- the Arab world’s best chance of being exposed to the Israeli point of view -- is being effectively shut down. In the past two days, its editor has been arrested on two occasions and another senior journalists taken in for questioning. According to its reporters, they cannot move from their office without being followed by the Israeli security services.

Why are they receiving this treatment? Because, according to Israel’s only serious newspaper, Haaretz, the country’s Hebrew media have been inciting against them. In particular Reshet Bet radio station, one of several wings of the Israeli media loyal to the government, has been telling lies that al-Jazeera is revealing classified information, namely the location of rocket strikes.

Is the claim true? According to Haaretz again: “Other TV networks, including Israeli news services, made similar reports without suffering from police intervention.”

Freedom of the press rarely means much when governments go to war. The local media usually consider it their patriotic duty not only to strip of vital context the information they offer their viewers but they often falsify the record too. Much of Israel’s media are clearly doing both jobs with some accomplishment.

But the fact that some in the Israeli media see it as part of their job to silence journalists not as craven as themselves is the real eye-opener. Maybe they realise al-Jazeera just makes them look like propagandists.

* * *

Nabila Espanioly, the director of a charitable organization in Nazareth promoting women and children’s interests, makes a point worth remembering as the foreign and Israeli media huddle in the shelters of Haifa and Nahariya interviewing terrified “Israelis”.

In fact, they are talking not to Israelis but to Israeli Jews. The fifth of the Israeli population who are not Jewish but Arab are rarely to be found hiding in public shelters because the authorities neglected to build any in their towns and villages.

In other words, although the Israeli army has sited several important weapons factories and military intelligence posts close to Arab communities in the north, the Israeli government has not offered the Arab residents any protection should there be fall-out -- quite literally in the case of the Katyusha rockets -- as a result.

This is another tiny facet of the discrimination endured for decades by the country’s Arab population that so rarely surfaces in media coverage of Israel.

Similarly oblivious to the ironies, the Israeli and foreign media have been running heart-warming stories about how “Israelis” are opening their homes and hearths to their compatriots fleeing the north. Again for “Israelis” substitute “Israeli Jews”.

No one I know here in Nazareth believes they would find much of a welcome in Tel Aviv or Beersheva should they go looking for one. Which leaves them with nowhere to run should they need to.

The only Arab communities out of the line of Hizbullah fire are those in the southern Negev belonging to the Bedouin. But that is not much comfort. Most of the Negev’s 150,000 Bedouin have been forced to live in squalid tents and metal shacks by an Israeli government that bulldozes anything more permanent. The authorities also deprive many of the Bedouin communities of water and all public services. So sweating it out with the Katyushas may be the better option.

* * *

A final footnote -- one to ponder in the quieter moments after the worst of the suffering is over. Those Israeli Jews fleeing for their lives as they head south to the quiet -- so far at least -- of Tel Aviv and beyond offer a small echo of events nearly six decades ago when 750,000 Palestinians were forced to leave their homes by the Israeli army.

Israeli Jews have always taken the view -- and happily tell any outsiders as much -- that the “Arabs” lost the right to their homes in the war of 1948 because they “fled” (in fact many were forcibly expelled, but let that drop for the moment).

The Israeli government has adopted much the same view, even refusing to allow the 250,000 of its own Arab citizens who are classified as internal refugees -- their ancestors fled the fighting in 1948 but have citizenship because they stayed inside what is today Israel -- to return to their original homes and land.

So how exactly should we regard those Israeli Jews now fleeing from Nahariya and Haifa? Should they lose their homes, their land and their bank accounts just as the Palestinians did in 1948?

The human shield excuse goes both ways in the Occupied Territories.

[fiction416]

Saracen wrote:

The human shield excuse goes both ways in the Occupied Territories.


+1

[mr_happy]

Israel has had patience. It took rocket fire at Sderot for almost 9 months before invading Gaza. It waited three days before using military action to try to get back Shalit Gilad. ISrael ahs repeatedly gone to the table to negotiate. It's time for the palestinians to return to the table. Hamas only has to do a few EASY THINGS.

1. renounce violence
2. agree to previous peace settlements
3. Accept ISrael's right to existence.
4. Return Shalit Gilad
5. Stop shooting

All of these steps are very easy to do and would actually be easier to do then not to do. WHy doesn't Hamas do them?

Hamas wants war. They don't want peace and they sure as hell don't want ISrael to exist. It doesn't matter if most palestinians want peace, all it takes is one to launch a rocket into Tel Aviv.

[Saracen]

mr_happy wrote: Israel has had patience. It took rocket fire at Sderot for almost 9 months before invading Gaza. It waited three days before using military action to try to get back Shalit Gilad. ISrael ahs repeatedly gone to the table to negotiate. It's time for the palestinians to return to the table. Hamas only has to do a few EASY THINGS.

Umm, Israel has been doing pretty much the same: they've been shelling the s**t out of Gaza for quite a while before Gilad Shalit got captured, and also flew their airplanes over Gaza as well.

Quote: 1. renounce violence

Israel has a long way to go.

Quote: 2. agree to previous peace settlements

No. Make a new one: the previous peace settlements were farces.

Quote: 3. Accept ISrael's right to existence.

Why not peace via truce? If Israel's existence is accepted, so should Palestine's. But then again, much of the Israeli government doesn't want that now, don't they?

Quote: 4. Return Shalit Gilad

And the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

Quote: 5. Stop shooting

I think that's pretty much the same as number 1.

Quote: All of these steps are very easy to do and would actually be easier to do then not to do. WHy doesn't Hamas do them?

How do you know they don't want them? With Israel undermining Hamas, how could you expect Hamas to fill in to their demands? With the arrest of Hamas politicians and working with Fatah to undermine Hamas's rule, do you expect Hamas to accept the terms just like that?

Quote: Hamas wants war. They don't want peace and they sure as hell don't want ISrael to exist. It doesn't matter if most palestinians want peace, all it takes is one to launch a rocket into Tel Aviv.

How do you know Hamas wants war? They haven't said much but condemned the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, and the kidnapping of the FOX NEWS journalists, etc. Israel has launched thousands of shells and rockets into Palestinian areas. If anything, the Palestinians have been too patient.

[programmusic]

fiction416 wrote: programmusic wrote: What MASSIVE hypocrisy. If Arabs die, it's Israel's fault. If Israeli's die? it's also Israel's fault, what happened to owning up to your actions?

let me elaborate:

what I am implying is causality in terms of how long term efffects in respect to any given situation can apply

In terms of actions, we are all responsible for our actions.

When people are summaritly brutalized by another Gov't entity over four (4) decades, there is a larger picture to look at, that does not take away accountability from isolated inncidents.

Furthermore: I am not saying "If Arabs die, it's Israel's fault. If Israeli's die? it's also Israel's fault,"

Each situation is subjective & you are making a broad generalization about my POV, which is unfair.

you don't say the same thing about arab casualties. Those are fundamentaly Israels fault, and Jewish casualties. You don't say anything about arabs should take responsability. Get off your high horse of masscerading as unbiased and just and fair. You only argue for one side.

[programmusic]

fiction416 wrote: programmusic wrote: What MASSIVE hypocrisy. If Arabs die, it's Israel's fault. If Israeli's die? it's also Israel's fault, what happened to owning up to your actions?

let me elaborate:

what I am implying is causality in terms of how long term efffects in respect to any given situation can apply

In terms of actions, we are all responsible for our actions.

When people are summaritly brutalized by another Gov't entity over four (4) decades, there is a larger picture to look at, that does not take away accountability from isolated inncidents.

Furthermore: I am not saying "If Arabs die, it's Israel's fault. If Israeli's die? it's also Israel's fault,"

Each situation is subjective & you are making a broad generalization about my POV, which is unfair.

you don't say the same thing about arab casualties. Those are fundamentaly Israels fault, and Jewish casualties. You don't say anything about arabs should take responsability. Get off your high horse of masscerading as unbiased and just and fair. You only argue for one side. You think making a post or two about Hezbollah will fulfill your "fairness quotient" it doesn't.

[fiction416]

programmusic wrote:
you don't say the same thing about arab casualties.

Chill out dude, I've been posting here for less than a week

programmusic wrote: Those are fundamentaly Israels fault, and Jewish casualties. You don't say anything about arabs should take responsability.

Not true, now that I think about it.

I have always said that we are responsible for the actions we commit.

I have said this about Hezbollah

I have condemned Hezbollah

programmusic wrote: Get off your high horse of masscerading as unbiased and just and fair. You only argue for one side.

Not true, sorry.

[fiction416]

programmusic wrote:

you don't say the same thing about arab casualties. Those are fundamentaly Israels fault, and Jewish casualties. You don't say anything about arabs should take responsability. Get off your high horse of masscerading as unbiased and just and fair. You only argue for one side. You think making a post or two about Hezbollah will fulfill your "fairness quotient" it doesn't.

Hold on, are you confusing

causality: causality |kôˈzalətē| noun 1 the relationship between cause and effect. 2 the principle that everything has a cause.

And

casualty: casualty |ˈka zh (ə)wəltē; ˈka zh əl-| noun ( pl. -ties) a person killed or injured in a war or accident. • figurative a person or thing badly affected by an event or situation : the building industry has been one of the casualties of the recession. • (chiefly in insurance) an accident, mishap, or disaster.

[programmusic]

fiction416 wrote: programmusic wrote:
you don't say the same thing about arab casualties.

Chill out dude, I've been posting here for less than a week

programmusic wrote: Those are fundamentaly Israels fault, and Jewish casualties. You don't say anything about arabs should take responsability.

Not true, now that I think about it.

I have always said that we are responsible for the actions we commit.

I have said this about Hezbollah

I have condemned Hezbollah

programmusic wrote: Get off your high horse of masscerading as unbiased and just and fair. You only argue for one side.

Not true, sorry.

It's true, and it's annoying. You pretend to be the unbiased evenhanded man who calls out both sides and doesn't hate anybody (except israel) You call Israel racist( it's not) and you don't say anything about the vast far reaching mind boggling anti semitism in the muslim world. You pretend to be even handed and yet you blame Israel for attacks against her. While saying everyone should own up and and take responsibility. I've never heard you say that the terrorists are to blame for constantly attacking Israel causing Israel to defend herself. You compare Israel to nazis which is so very insulting and insensitive to all those who suffered in the holocaust that. You act as if someone punched you in the face you wouldn't do something about it, like some peaceful saint here to teach us all. Noone buys it.

P.S. I said CASUALTIES as in CASUALTIES which fits the context of the sentence perfectly. Not causality, which is not only not what I typed, but wouldn't fit the sentence.

[programmusic]

Saracen wrote:

Quote: 1. renounce violence

Israel has a long way to go.



in Israel you can see thousands marching in support of peace. In gaza and the West Bank(where they elected Hamas btw) you see thousands marching for the death of Israel and America. More hypocrisy.

[fiction416]

programmusic wrote:

It's true, and it's annoying.

Your problem, not mine.

programmusic wrote: You pretend to be the unbiased evenhanded man who calls out both sides and doesn't hate anybody (except israel)

Where have I said that I hate Israel?

do you have a link or quote?

if not STFU & stop putting words in my mouth

programmusic wrote: You call Israel racist( it's not)

Israel has racist laws



programmusic wrote: and you don't say anything about the vast far reaching mind boggling anti semitism in the muslim world.

Sure I do - it exist & it is wrong

Racism of all types is wrong

programmusic wrote: You pretend to be even handed and yet you blame Israel for attacks against her

That is ridiculous, no I don't, I blame those who carry out the attacks on Israel for those attacks.

programmusic wrote: While saying everyone should own up and and take responsibility.

Yup

programmusic wrote: I've never heard you say that the terrorists are to blame for constantly attacking Israel

They are to blame - they are responsible for thier actions

programmusic wrote: causing Israel to defend herself.

Defend yourself, fine - but do so on your land, without harming civilians & children

programmusic wrote: You compare Israel to nazis which is so very insulting and insensitive to all those who suffered in the holocaust that.

1) There are notable comparisns

2) My family suffered from the Holocaust, what is your point?



programmusic wrote: You act as if someone punched you in the face you wouldn't do something about it, like some peaceful saint here to teach us all.

I already explained myself in respect to this, in a valid manner

programmusic wrote: Noone buys it.

You mean, you dont' buy it.

Afterall, you don't speak for others, do you?

[Claudia Schiffer]

the sane voice wrote: fiction416 wrote: programmusic wrote: Kinda makes it hard to avoid "civilian" casualties doesn't it. Also notice that the militant is wearing civilian clothing.



He is wearing military pants, that is not civilain clothing.

Furthermore, the civilians are safe from gunfire, as the are hiding around a corner out of the line of gunfire


this picture proves nothing of human shields, sorry
what about the one holding a gun in the middle of the crowd?

Are you serious, these people look way too relax. And what about the camera man who seem to be in the middle of the street? :roll: This look more like an exercise. Nice try. :wink:

I see Israel is trying to polish it's image, you think that's gonna make up for the 1300 Lebanese civilians killed during the last conflict? Think again!

[the sane voice]

Claudia Schiffer wrote: the sane voice wrote: fiction416 wrote: programmusic wrote: Kinda makes it hard to avoid "civilian" casualties doesn't it. Also notice that the militant is wearing civilian clothing.



He is wearing military pants, that is not civilain clothing.

Furthermore, the civilians are safe from gunfire, as the are hiding around a corner out of the line of gunfire


this picture proves nothing of human shields, sorry
what about the one holding a gun in the middle of the crowd?

Are you serious, these people look way too relax. And what about the camera man who seem to be in the middle of the street? :roll: This look more like an exercise. Nice try. :wink:

I see Israel is trying to polish it's image, you think that's gonna make up for the 1300 Lebanese civilians killed during the last conflict? Think again!
yeah we know the image is fake.its just to show how the palestinians conduct fighting-those poor people you are defending.

[Claudia Schiffer]

the sane voice wrote: jews were persuctad for 2000 yars.they didnt blow themselves up,and instead of using violence they builded a state.so i guess its depends on the people and the path they choose.how many years will they blame the jews?10?20?3000?

Give me a f**king break. :roll: You're the one doing the persecution now.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7594290623147041732&q=label%3Azionism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo0yuWsF-vs&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOtFYiYgvWg&mode=related&search=palestine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8yKFKao0sI&mode=related&search=

i could go on. :roll:

[superskippy]

Yes you could go on and you do, but that doesnt mean you have proven anything.

[Thrilla]

If an issue cannnot be discussed without namecalling.... i will end said discussion and hand out fitting disciplinary actions.... are we clear?

[the sane voice]

Claudia Schiffer wrote: the sane voice wrote: jews were persuctad for 2000 yars.they didnt blow themselves up,and instead of using violence they builded a state.so i guess its depends on the people and the path they choose.how many years will they blame the jews?10?20?3000?

Give me a f**king break. :roll: You're the one doing the persecution now.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7594290623147041732&q=label%3Azionism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo0yuWsF-vs&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOtFYiYgvWg&mode=related&search=palestine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8yKFKao0sI&mode=related&search=

i could go on. :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lynching_in_Ramallah

[MoscowMatt]

fiction416 wrote: programmusic wrote: Kinda makes it hard to avoid "civilian" casualties doesn't it. Also notice that the militant is wearing civilian clothing.



He is wearing military pants, that is not civilain clothing.

Furthermore, the civilians are safe from gunfire, as the are hiding around a corner out of the line of gunfire


this picture proves nothing of human shields, sorry

Yeah I mean if a 500lb bomb landed on that militants head all those civilians would be safe because they are just around the corner!!!! :roll: