Political Crossfire Forums

[el_hombre_de_Dios]

ABC News wrote: Sept. 16, 2006 — Police say the plan was diabolical and imminent: Shawn Sturtz and William Cornell, both 17 years old, had amassed an arsenal of guns, ammunition and at least 20 homemade bombs.

"This threat was real and would have been carried out in the near future," said Capt. Lisa Starr of the Green Bay Police Department.

Authorities say both boys had long been fascinated with the Columbine massacre of 1999. They were depressed, hated school and hoped to die in a shootout. They had apparently learned how to build bombs on the Internet.

According to police, the teens planned to storm the school, set off bombs in the bathrooms, and light the doors on fire with napalm so no one could get out. Investigators say there was also a list of people they planned to kill.

"One's got to ask themselves, as the mayor of this city: 'Where were the parents in this?' " said Green Bay Mayor James J. Schmitt.

As they walked out of court, Sturtz family maintained they were in the dark.

Investigators say the Columbine-style plan was two years in the making. A fellow student tipped off school officials.

"If someone hadn't come forward, we'd be talking about funerals instead of charges," said John Zakowski, Brown County District Attorney.

Sturtz and Cornell are being on held on a $50,000 dollar bond. They are expected to be charged next week with conspiracy to commit homicide.

Police: Teens Plotted Columbine-like Massacre

Where were the parents?? Probably both working to support our illustrious and expensive western lifestyle. Or perhaps they were poor; but that is not the point. If the parents weren't there then who raised them? So thus their children were most likely the by-products of our warped cultural ideas of just what constitutes 'freedom.' These 'children' are human beings indoctrinated fully into our culture of death; where autopsy TV shows rate high as entertainment during the family hour. In graphic detail they depict the demise of another human, all the while almost fully sterilized of what the death of a loved one actually means to those who experience it. We allow graphically violent video games, equally demoralizing and demeaning pornography whose main theme is the wanton usage of another person as a sex object. And I could go on and on.

But what this points to is a disease within our society. We used to think that it took a whole village to raise our children. That each adult was also collectively responsible for socializing the villages young. Now if someone mentions to a brat that they are misbehaving it's not 'politically correct to push ones morals onto another; even if that 'other' is a misbehaving child.

Short and sweet: we are losing it. We have allowed a dehumanizing culture to redefine who and what we are. And until we take control and put more limits on what we allow our children to view and learn from we can expect more of the same.
Quote: MONTREAL - For many students and parents in Montreal, fear slowly began to replace shock in the aftermath of Wednesday's Dawson College shootings.

Several were questioning the safety of their own schools, and whether Kimber Gill's actions could provoke another of society's outcasts into copycat violence.

We have to 'worry' about more of our children behaving this way? Then there is something seriously wrong with our culture.

[cap'n queasy]

There is something definitely very wrong if kids are going around doing stuff like this.

[Tono]

The government shouldn't be in the child-raising business.

[cap'n queasy]

Well, someone oughta be.

[gavnook]

I reject this story on the grounds that it is a conspiracy theory.

[lilwolf]

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, someone oughta be.

JHC, I would rather the govt. be involved than Marilyn Manson raising them.

[citizen_X]

The gov't get involved, are not they already, they took away so much from the parents now that they are helpless, you yell at them, Verbal abuse, spank or slap them, Physical abuse, try to show you care, Emotional abuse, dont buy that video game they wanted, Child abuse, remember the gov't passed all these abuses, how convienent for them to alter the whole family concept, now we need the gov't to help.

Pretty soon the gov't will pass a law so that you cant use the evil toss the salad man phrase in the prisons anymore. You screw up, you going to prison to toss someones salad.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Numb]

lilwolf wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Well, someone oughta be.

JHC, I would rather the govt. be involved than Marilyn Manson raising them.
I disagree, he seems rather loving :lol:
I know whats going to come next though, blame on music, movies, books and especially video games.
Gee, it's not like these kids were crazy to begin with, or that they were abused while in school and meant to feel depressed, oh wait!

[el_hombre_de_Dios]

Numb wrote: lilwolf wrote: captain queasy wrote: Well, someone oughta be.

JHC, I would rather the govt. be involved than Marilyn Manson raising them.
I disagree, he seems rather loving :lol:
I know whats going to come next though, blame on music, movies, books and especially video games.
Gee, it's not like these kids were crazy to begin with, or that they were abused while in school and meant to feel depressed, oh wait!

There is a definitive correlation between watching or listening to violent oriented stimuli and then acting out violently. We are spiritual beings whether we wish to believe it is so or not. With the advent of moral relativism and secular existentialism we have philosophically and politically redefined our nature. We now deny that what we feed ourselves we become. (Somehow in our arrogance we falsely think we are above this.) These violent children (who are not born with some pathology but are 'normal') do not learn violence in a neutral environment; they are taught violence though what?..EXAMPLE.

In the name of our sacred cows we allow way to much spiritual garbage from our children to consume. Any child can click a computer and be exposed to hardcore pornography. They can play video games where they do what? MURDER another person in effigy. That, whether we wish to believe or not, helps to strongly influence children towards violence. Does it happen to all? No, but it does change enough of them to where they become Columbine shooters.

Until we change that we can expect more of the same. No cow should be that sacred. If we believe our sacred cows, such as 'freedom of speech,' are inviolable then we are worshiping false gods (and thus will always pay the penalty for it; it's built right into the equation).

[ChuckBerry]

I am quite socially conservative, but I feel that any attempt to blame violent entertainment or the media in general for creating monsters like this is bullsh*t. Because modern media can put so much light on a story, and will generally give stories like these wall to wall coverage, it seems like the world is coming to an end, and someone must be blamed.

Shock rockers like Marilyn Manson have not called for the destruction of society, they have called for its rejection. Why not for its destruction? Because that's how guys like him make their money. You can't very well kill the goose that is laying the golden eggs. Play to the rebellious nature of kids and give them an outlet for it, so long as they bring cash from mom and dad.

People like the Dylan Klebolds of this world are taking things a very long step beyond what anybody like Marilyn Manson is suggesting. Don't blame the guy who has the attention of your kids, especially if that person isn't YOU.

[ieatfood]

Look, this is ridiculous.

The world is filled with all sorts of bad influences. It is up to the parents to shield their kids from them.

Steve Irwin wrestled with crocs. So if some dumb kid goes out to the wilderness trying to wrestle a croc and he gets killed, you gonna blame Steve? Gimme a break.

In any case, these are isolated incidents. Not really a big deal. Random violence happens every day . Who cares? What's more troubling is that our kids can't read, write, do math, or understand science. That's the real scary part.

[el_hombre_de_Dios]

ieatfood wrote: Look, this is ridiculous.

The world is filled with all sorts of bad influences. It is up to the parents to shield their kids from them.

Steve Irwin wrestled with crocs. So if some dumb kid goes out to the wilderness trying to wrestle a croc and he gets killed, you gonna blame Steve? Gimme a break.

In any case, these are isolated incidents. Not really a big deal. Random violence happens every day . Who cares? What's more troubling is that our kids can't read, write, do math, or understand science. That's the real scary part.

What is ridiculous is that you cannot recognise incidents like this are blatant symptoms of a society in spiritual crisis. It bespeaks of a stark fact: how much we've lost touch with who we really are as human beings. Spiritual people know by experience: you become what you eat, across the board, whether it be dinner on the table or an afternoon movie. garbage in, garbage out. You become what you feed yourself with.

If you believe otherwise then your twenty years behind the times. Psychology used to believe such silly things as we were not strongly influenced by what goes on around us in our environment. Now study after study shows just the opposite.

In the more modern culture however, political correctness and multiculturalism is a fools logic to justify moral relativism. The latter is a false absolute.

Moreovr, these things did not happen before 20-30years ago. People who did commit mass shootings almost always suffered from some pathology. But now children with no pathology are doing these things. Of course this begs the question, why? Simple, the pathology is in our culture.

[ieatfood]

el_hombre_de_Dios wrote: ieatfood wrote: Look, this is ridiculous.

The world is filled with all sorts of bad influences. It is up to the parents to shield their kids from them.

Steve Irwin wrestled with crocs. So if some dumb kid goes out to the wilderness trying to wrestle a croc and he gets killed, you gonna blame Steve? Gimme a break.

In any case, these are isolated incidents. Not really a big deal. Random violence happens every day . Who cares? What's more troubling is that our kids can't read, write, do math, or understand science. That's the real scary part.

What is ridiculous is that you cannot recognise incidents like this are blatant symptoms of a society in spiritual crisis. It bespeaks of a stark fact: how much we've lost touch with who we really are as human beings. Spiritual people know by experience: you become what you eat, across the board, whether it be dinner on the table or an afternoon movie. garbage in, garbage out. You become what you feed yourself with.

If you believe otherwise then your twenty years behind the times. Psychology used to believe such silly things as we were not strongly influenced by what goes on around us in our environment. Now study after study shows just the opposite.

In the more modern culture however, political correctness and multiculturalism is a fools logic to justify moral relativism. The latter is a false absolute.

Moreovr, these things did not happen before 20-30years ago. People who did commit mass shootings almost always suffered from some pathology. But now children with no pathology are doing these things. Of course this begs the question, why? Simple, the pathology is in our culture.

You are what you eat?? Can you be any more cliche? School shootings are examples of random violence. Happen all the time. Fact is you don't look at isolated incidents. You look at trends. Fact is, violent crime has decreased tremendously in the US. That shows the society is becoming more peaceful, not less.

Point is, you are taking a very very small part of society (school shootings) and you are exploiting that to portray society in a falsely negative light. A school shooting tells us something about a single kid. It tells us nothing about society. If you look at society as a whole--things are far better than they were 20 years ago. Looking around me, I see improvement everywhere. People are safer, wealthier, healthier than before. You don't look at isolated examples--you look at statistics...lower crime rates, higher incomes, higher life expectancies.

You are trying to use exceptions to prove the rule, in order to justify a return to an defunct culture that people no longer want to embrace. Nice try.

Personally, these school shootings are overhypped. What percentage of AMerican children shoot up schools? 0.0001%? It's so rare, it's not even worth mentioning. But because people love a good story, it sells newspapers.

[Protostar]

Who allowed you into the Society forum? :roll: Parents are responsible for what their kids consume and like a poster pointed out earlier the government has tried its best to take away the tools necessary to discpline a child (beatings fall under child abuse, etc). I find it absolutely amazing that I and many others jerked off to porno, played GTA and other violent video games, and watched movies like the Terminator somehow managed to get through our entire grade school career without blowing someone away. Could it be that these kids where just crazy? Sure, maybe but it could also be something else. It said in the article that the kids were depressed and hated school. Why was that I wonder? Could it be that the school allowed a myriad of **** to stay in the school who harassed them? I remember high school and remember only in extreme circumstances would they expell anyone. They might suspend you, but they would rarely expell people. This is one of the problems I have with compulsary education because it forces people to be there that don't want to be, and who make it their mission to terrorize others out of spite. Religion, morality have nothing to do with it as much as it does poor parenting, too much government involvement in parenting, and allowing kids who don't want to be in school to terrorize those who do. Violent video games/movies are just outlets to vent said frustrations and have little to do with causing the frustrations in the first place. As usual social conservatives attempts to blame "social decay" for social ills is misplaced.

[Protostar]

lilwolf wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Well, someone oughta be.

JHC, I would rather the govt. be involved than Marilyn Manson raising them.

I disagree. I'd trust Marilyn Manson with my kid (provided I had any) before I would trust George Bush, John Kerry, or any of the other myriad of scumbag politicians on Capital Hill.

[el_hombre_de_Dios]

Protostar wrote: Who allowed you into the Society forum? :roll: Parents are responsible for what their kids consume and like a poster pointed out earlier the government has tried its best to take away the tools necessary to discpline a child (beatings fall under child abuse, etc). I find it absolutely amazing that I and many others jerked off to porno, played GTA and other violent video games, and watched movies like the Terminator somehow managed to get through our entire grade school career without blowing someone away. Could it be that these kids where just crazy? Sure, maybe but it could also be something else. It said in the article that the kids were depressed and hated school. Why was that I wonder? Could it be that the school allowed a myriad of ***holes to stay in the school who harassed them? I remember high school and remember only in extreme circumstances would they expell anyone. They might suspend you, but they would rarely expell people. This is one of the problems I have with compulsary education because it forces people to be there that don't want to be, and who make it their mission to terrorize others out of spite. Religion, morality have nothing to do with it as much as it does poor parenting, too much government involvement in parenting, and allowing kids who don't want to be in school to terrorize those who do. Violent video games/movies are just outlets to vent said frustrations and have little to do with causing the frustrations in the first place. As usual social conservatives attempts to blame "social decay" for social ills is misplaced.

I allowed my self oh pretentious one.

[el_hombre_de_Dios]

ieatfood wrote: el_hombre_de_Dios wrote: ieatfood wrote: Look, this is ridiculous.

The world is filled with all sorts of bad influences. It is up to the parents to shield their kids from them.

Steve Irwin wrestled with crocs. So if some dumb kid goes out to the wilderness trying to wrestle a croc and he gets killed, you gonna blame Steve? Gimme a break.

In any case, these are isolated incidents. Not really a big deal. Random violence happens every day . Who cares? What's more troubling is that our kids can't read, write, do math, or understand science. That's the real scary part.

What is ridiculous is that you cannot recognise incidents like this are blatant symptoms of a society in spiritual crisis. It bespeaks of a stark fact: how much we've lost touch with who we really are as human beings. Spiritual people know by experience: you become what you eat, across the board, whether it be dinner on the table or an afternoon movie. garbage in, garbage out. You become what you feed yourself with.

If you believe otherwise then your twenty years behind the times. Psychology used to believe such silly things as we were not strongly influenced by what goes on around us in our environment. Now study after study shows just the opposite.

In the more modern culture however, political correctness and multiculturalism is a fools logic to justify moral relativism. The latter is a false absolute.

Moreovr, these things did not happen before 20-30years ago. People who did commit mass shootings almost always suffered from some pathology. But now children with no pathology are doing these things. Of course this begs the question, why? Simple, the pathology is in our culture.

You are what you eat?? Can you be any more cliche? School shootings are examples of random violence. Happen all the time. Fact is you don't look at isolated incidents. You look at trends. Fact is, violent crime has decreased tremendously in the US. That shows the society is becoming more peaceful, not less.

Point is, you are taking a very very small part of society (school shootings) and you are exploiting that to portray society in a falsely negative light. A school shooting tells us something about a single kid. It tells us nothing about society. If you look at society as a whole--things are far better than they were 20 years ago. Looking around me, I see improvement everywhere. People are safer, wealthier, healthier than before. You don't look at isolated examples--you look at statistics...lower crime rates, higher incomes, higher life expectancies.

You are trying to use exceptions to prove the rule, in order to justify a return to an defunct culture that people no longer want to embrace. Nice try.

Personally, these school shootings are overhypped. What percentage of AMerican children shoot up schools? 0.0001%? It's so rare, it's not even worth mentioning. But because people love a good story, it sells newspapers.

Vilolence is down because we are putting criminals in jails and prisons for much longer periods (thanks to conservative judges..btw, it was the people who demanded this.. see democracy does work..sometimes). But at the same time we've putting progressively more and more people per capita people behind bars. Why? Need I answer.

And schools shootings are 'random?!?!?' :rotf: Er..um ah..Colombine was planned. The latest in Canada was planned. There was nothing 'random' about them except the choice of the shooters victims. And I wonder if you would have the courage to repeat what you said in the presence of people who have experienced the horror of these tragedies, especialy the parents who have lost a son or a daughter. First I seriously doubt you would be able to; and if you did $5 will get you $10 you most likely would have some teeth missing afterward :lol:

[Tetracide]

Please keep your posts respectful.

[Shuya Nanahara]

lilwolf wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Well, someone oughta be.

JHC, I would rather the govt. be involved than Marilyn Manson raising them.

what has marilyn manson got to do with this....?

the colombine shooters didn't even like marilyn manson, they like Rammmstein, but journalists with a hard on for sensationalism saw an opportunity to denigrate a the first mainstream shock rocker they could find.

[Shuya Nanahara]

reagan was shot by John Hinckley, Jr., who was obsessed with jodie foster and trying to impress her......is that her fault..?

the dunblane massacre was carried out by middle aged Thomas Hamilton.......no such musical scapegoats were reported.

the hungerford massacre was perpetrated by michael ryan and again ......no such musical scapegoats were reported.

then why was the musical tastes of the colombine shooters highlighted (INNCORRECTLY), if Thomas Hamilton was a big carpenters fan (hypothetical) would we not be right to blame Karen and Richard if we followed the same reasoning.

NO it's clear the only reason MM was scapegoated is because the moral majority hate what he stands for, they assume that because they hate his image, that MUST be what caused those kids to go off the deep end. this is shortsighted in the extreme especially considering the shooters did not even listen to MM.