Political Crossfire Forums

Pareve · Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 893

X-Shocker wrote: Why would you want to educate anyone who is so willing to kill your countrymen?

Because educated people are less likely to kill people? Restricting education is a terrible idea.

Technically, Gaza and the West Bank are the same 'county.' I know travel between them takes Palestinians through some Israeli territory, but as long as the Palestinian territory is separate, that can't really be avoided. Maybe they should get a giant gerbil tube between the two areas or something.

Kaerus · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 15

Hold on a minute, good sir...

...is not the Hezbollah cluster (Lebanese) a group that does not advocate much violence? And even so, isn't there a bigger reason, a more subtle reason , behind why there have been little to no preventive action done to restarain the Isaraelis form bombarding the Lebanese?

Pareve · Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 893

Kaerus wrote: Hold on a minute, good sir...

...is not the Hezbollah cluster (Lebanese) a group that does not advocate much violence? And even so, isn't there a bigger reason, a more subtle reason , behind why there have been little to no preventive action done to restarain the Isaraelis form bombarding the Lebanese?

Hezbollah advocates no less than the total destruction of Israel. It encourages suicide bombings and an unfortunately virulent brand of religious fundamentalism.

Maybe Hezbollah doesn't advocate much violence in the mirror universe.

Pebble · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 1143

Pareve wrote: Kaerus wrote: Hold on a minute, good sir...

...is not the Hezbollah cluster (Lebanese) a group that does not advocate much violence? And even so, isn't there a bigger reason, a more subtle reason , behind why there have been little to no preventive action done to restarain the Isaraelis form bombarding the Lebanese?

Hezbollah advocates no less than the total destruction of Israel. It encourages suicide bombings and an unfortunately virulent brand of religious fundamentalism.

Maybe Hezbollah doesn't advocate much violence in the mirror universe.

Hezbollah aren't that big on suicide bombings, certainly not as much as Islamic Jihad or Al-Quaeda. They're a rather mixed bag of conflicting opinions over the matter, having for example condemmned the World Trade Centre attacks and yet also appearing to support instances of the tactic when used against Israel...

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

Quote: Poisonous clouds of pollution spread after Israel air strike

More people will die as a result of pollution unleashed by Israel's bombing of the Lebanon than perished in the month-long war itself, the Lebanese government believes.

Yacoub Sarraf, its Environment Minister, speaking exclusively to The Independent on Sunday, said last week that a highly poisonous cloud spread over a third of the country - an area that is home to half its people - from a fire in a bombed fuel tank that burned for 12 days.

The same bombing released about four million gallons of oil into the sea, in the largest ever spill in the eastern Mediterranean. He insists that the environmental damage was "deliberately" caused. Experts say that, if this was so, it would constitute a war crime, in breach of both the Geneva Convention and the statute of the International Criminal Court. Israel retorts that any such suggestion is "very ridiculous".

The damage began on 13 July, when Israeli rockets hit a fuel storage tank at the Jiyyeh power station 18 miles south of Beirut. The government managed to repair the damage and prevent an oil spill. But two days later, he continued, the rockets returned, not merely hitting the same tank again - just 25 metres from the sea - but fatally damaging its protective burm, a concrete and earth barrier designed to stop any oil spilling from the tank from reaching the Mediterranean.

"It was definitely deliberate.," he said. "They did not hit the power station, just the fuel storage, and this was the tank that was closest to the sea."

He expects the greatest "catastrophe" from the toxic cloud that was blown by the prevailing wind over Beirut and one-third of the country. Tests have shown, he says, that it contains high levels of poisonous lead and mercury, and highly dangerous PCBs.

"Not only have we been breathing this for a month, but all the agricultural produce has been subjected to it. Even worse, all these poisons will come down with the rain, and some will seep through the soil and give us a polluted water table.

"Then in a couple of years every single citizen in Lebanon will definitely be subjected to poisonous matter in his drinking water." He expected more Lebanese to die from the pollution than the 1,300, overwhelmingly civilians, killed in the war. He added that studies have shown there would be decreased fertility and higher rates of cancer. "This is a bigger disaster even than the war itself," Mr Sarraf said.

A spokesman for the Israeli government said: "We deny the minister's accusations. They seem to be very ridiculous.

"We never deliberately targeted any civilian capacity or place, we only targeted places or facilities relevant to Hizbollah."

LINK

Shuya Nanahara · Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 414 Location: london

mr_happy wrote: casualty counts make no relevance. however if you want one fact:

Israel is the only country in the world to wage an urban war and kill more militants than civillians. Hats off to ISrael.

linky linky.?

Shuya Nanahara · Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 414 Location: london

the main thing wrong with Israel is the refusal to divert from a course of illegal occupation, that clearly after 39 years is doing nothing to help peace in the region and the close mindedness of not at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people. it really is this simple...........it must be worth at least considering.......maybe this is why it has been the demand of the UN security council, unchanged for 39 years. stop letting the US think for you for all your sakes..!!

i wonder what it feels like to be a puppet of US hegemonic interests....?

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2496

Shuya Nanahara wrote: the main thing wrong with Israel is the refusal to divert from a course of illegal occupation, that clearly after 39 years is doing nothing to help peace in the region and the close mindedness of not at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people. it really is this simple...........it must be worth at least considering.......maybe this is why it has been the demand of the UN security council, unchanged for 39 years. stop letting the US think for you for all your sakes..!!

i wonder what it feels like to be a puppet of US hegemonic interests....?

It can't withdraw because its opponents will carry one attacking it, look at what happen in Gaza they withdraw and forcibly remove settlers and within days rokets are fired at it, the people in the occupied land will not settle for anything other than the destruction of Israel it what they live for revenge.

Shuya Nanahara · Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 414 Location: london

mendosan wrote: Shuya Nanahara wrote: the main thing wrong with Israel is the refusal to divert from a course of illegal occupation, that clearly after 39 years is doing nothing to help peace in the region and the close mindedness of not at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people. it really is this simple...........it must be worth at least considering.......maybe this is why it has been the demand of the UN security council, unchanged for 39 years. stop letting the US think for you for all your sakes..!!

i wonder what it feels like to be a puppet of US hegemonic interests....?

It can't withdraw because its opponents will carry one attacking it, look at what happen in Gaza they withdraw and forcibly remove settlers and within days rokets are fired at it, the people in the occupied land will not settle for anything other than the destruction of Israel it what they live for revenge.

i refer the honourable member to my previous statement....

"...at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people"

lowchen · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 418

Secondary Oak wrote: And honestly, I'm pretty sick about how so many threads in this forum deteriorate into examining the events prior to, or during, 1948. I agree there's a lot to discuss there, but in this regard this is off-topic.

I'm not saying the Palestinians had it fine and dandy forever. I can certainly understand, for example, what created the first Intifada. My point is that contrary to what I would have done in their stead (and probably you too) once Israel became committed to a Palestinian Autonomy - an independent country of their own - the violence from their side increased tenfold.

Im not diagreeing with you on this point. They may have served their interests better if they also used diplomacy. In fact I think this is true. However the reason there is Palestinian terrorism on this current level is due to actions from the Israeli side since the creation of Israel. These actions are totally related.

And one reason why there is more terrorsim since the ceation of the PA is purely generational. You're now dealing with individuals of this generation who are totally used to living in conlfict and this is a rite of passage. Think about all the Palestinian kids who now get themselves locked up just to get wawy from all the chaos. These kids want a piece of the pie and are not conent to live the 2nd class status of their fathers, or uncles.

Secondary Oak wrote:

But as for the Palestinians? I don't think I'll ever forgive them for what they've done to Israel. People keep saying "can't you see that by doing this and this, Israel is just creating more hate among the Palestinians, fueling terror". Well, maybe. But how come nobody says "can't you see that by constantly killing Israelis, the Palestinians are just creating more hate among the Israelis, tilting public opinion against them"?

Well, this rant is getting long, but I just had to vent some frustration. And keep in mind I do hope the situation for the Palestinians will improve. I see them as people without a nation - much like the Jewish people were 60 years ago. So the Palestinians didn't undergo the holocaust, so what? That doesn't mean they don't deserve a country. And Israel could have definitely done more in that regard. However, again and again they were offered the opportunity and again and again they responded with terrorism. I'm not saying that because that's what I've read or heard somewhere. I'm saying this because I've seen it with my own eyes..

I can see and understand why Israeli's are tired of the bombing and sucide attacks. I understand why most of them just want the wall to be put up and be left alone. As with most situations its the average people that get s*cked in the middle.

The cahllenge is to understand that as long as Israelis/Jews feel superior and implement public policies that are very unfavorable t the Palestinains, this situation will continue. I have been to israel afew times and Im saddened to say that your nation needs to look in the mirror and address its past trangressions before peace can go forward. Israel often thinks its on the defensive when it is actually on the offensive. And Israel constantly refuses to recognize this even though the world community does.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Shuya Nanahara wrote: mendosan wrote: Shuya Nanahara wrote: the main thing wrong with Israel is the refusal to divert from a course of illegal occupation, that clearly after 39 years is doing nothing to help peace in the region and the close mindedness of not at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people. it really is this simple...........it must be worth at least considering.......maybe this is why it has been the demand of the UN security council, unchanged for 39 years. stop letting the US think for you for all your sakes..!!

i wonder what it feels like to be a puppet of US hegemonic interests....?

It can't withdraw because its opponents will carry one attacking it, look at what happen in Gaza they withdraw and forcibly remove settlers and within days rokets are fired at it, the people in the occupied land will not settle for anything other than the destruction of Israel it what they live for revenge.

i refer the honourable member to my previous statement....

"...at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people"

I noticed you said primary motivation and may, meaning of course they will still have motivation to attack Israel. With that in mind Israel would have nothing to gain. A withdrawal can should only ever happen if it results in the cessation of terror attacks by ALL Palestinians as well as their disarmament. Now can you really see that happening?!!!

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

MoscowMatt wrote: A withdrawal can should only ever happen if it results in the cessation of terror attacks by ALL Palestinians as well as their disarmament. Now can you really see that happening?!!!

By disamarment am I right in assuming the militant groups rather than all of the Palestinians (as this would include their security forces)?

I can see this happening, and there is no use in abandoning hope that the issue can be resolved. However the Palestinians themselves would not agree to this without similair concerns being addressed by the Israeli authorities.

As far as I can see, the main problems are getting the Palestinians into a position where they have an active governance that can adminster it's position with clarity and authority, and getting Israel to recognise this government, end the economic blockade on the Palestine territories and stall any plans for further settlements.

Now, this is not something that is going to be easy to acheive. It's going to take some major balls for either side to actually reach an agreement. But if it's a case of continuing the violence on both sides, or swallowing pride and trying to acheive peace which would people prefer?

Shuya Nanahara · Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 414 Location: london

MoscowMatt wrote: Shuya Nanahara wrote: mendosan wrote: Shuya Nanahara wrote: the main thing wrong with Israel is the refusal to divert from a course of illegal occupation, that clearly after 39 years is doing nothing to help peace in the region and the close mindedness of not at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people. it really is this simple...........it must be worth at least considering.......maybe this is why it has been the demand of the UN security council, unchanged for 39 years. stop letting the US think for you for all your sakes..!!

i wonder what it feels like to be a puppet of US hegemonic interests....?

It can't withdraw because its opponents will carry one attacking it, look at what happen in Gaza they withdraw and forcibly remove settlers and within days rokets are fired at it, the people in the occupied land will not settle for anything other than the destruction of Israel it what they live for revenge.

i refer the Honorable member to my previous statement....

"...at least considering that a full withdrawal may remove the primary motivation for "terrorist " attacks on their people"

I noticed you said primary motivation and may, meaning of course they will still have motivation to attack Israel. With that in mind Israel would have nothing to gain. A withdrawal can should only ever happen if it results in the cessation of terror attacks by ALL Palestinians as well as their disarmament. Now can you really see that happening?!!!

a full withdrawal would be the result of a (non US sabotaged) peace settlement, yes there would be alot of sour grapes left on both sides, but the majority of the reason for Palestinian or Israeli attacks would be gone and the treaty signed by both parties and overseen by the international community ought to take care of the rest.

it's not as if their current course looks like relieving any tension any day soon is it.........perhaps it is time to at least consider withdrawal.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

Quote: Settler guilty of W Bank murders

An Israeli court has convicted a Jewish settler for the murder of four Palestinians in the West Bank as Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005.

Asher Weisgan shot dead four employees at the Shilo settlement - two of them as he was driving them home after work.

Prosecutors said he had hoped to stop the Gaza pullout by diverting resources to the West Bank to quell unrest.

Weisgan snatched the murder weapon from a settlement security guard. Sentencing will take place shortly, officials say.

Convictions for crimes by settlers in the West Bank are rare, according to a report by a human rights group published on the day of the conviction.

Extremist anger

After his arrest, Weisgan said he had no regrets about shooting the Palestinians, two of whom he had got to know well over a number of years.

He also expressed the hope that someone would kill then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the architect of the withdrawal plan.

Defence lawyer Asher Ohayon told the court "internal voices called on the accused once and again to not only think about himself and his family, but about the entire nation, and carry out an act of self-sacrifice in order to prevent the disaster".

Mr Sharon withstood a wave of protests from the settler movement over his plan to withdraw settlers and the troops who protected them from the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip.

Two weeks before the killing, a Jewish extremist had shot dead four Israeli Arabs on a bus in Shfaram, before he was lynched by angry crowd.

Settler violence

An Israeli group said in a report released on Monday that up to 90% of complaints by Palestinians of violence perpetrated by Israeli settlers ended in failure.

The group, Yesh Din, has compiled a survey based on a sample of 92 police files from 2005 and part of 2006.

It indicates that only 10% of Palestinian cases against settlers led to indictments.

"The most worrying conclusion arising from the report is that there is practically no law enforcement mechanism in place to protect Palestinians from settler violence," said Yesh Din research director Lior Yavne.

In response, the Israeli police said that out of 299 such complaints made between January and November last year, charges were filed in 15% of cases.

A police statement said a number of the complaints were still being investigated and could yet result in charges.

LINK

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

A Military court held off Monday on deciding whether 18 Hamas lawmakers should be released from prison.

The court, which ordered the lawmakers to be freed last week, made no decision on the IDF prosecutor's appeal.

The 18 Palestinian Authority parliament members will remain in custody until a decision is reached.

Military Judge Maj. Ronen Atzmon said he would inform the prisoners' attorneys when he had made a decision, but did not give a time.

Israel arrested the lawmakers in June, after Hamas-allied terrorists kidnapped IDF soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit. The men are charged with membership and activity in an outlawed organization.

LINK

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lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 12031 Location: idaho

I am surprised that Israel stopped when they did. They should never have stopped and just forced the hezbolla terrorist group out of the nation. Offer one chance to surrender and the if they do not eliminate the enemy. That's the aim of war fare, to destroy your enemy.

To bad they stopped because it will one day come back to haunt them and then it will get really out of hand.

Pebble · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 1143

lilwolf wrote: I am surprised that Israel stopped when they did. They should never have stopped and just forced the hezbolla terrorist group out of the nation. Offer one chance to surrender and the if they do not eliminate the enemy. That's the aim of war fare, to destroy your enemy.

To bad they stopped because it will one day come back to haunt them and then it will get really out of hand.

They stopped because, realistically, they had no chance of defeating Hezbollah in Lebanon - at least not without vastly further infalted civilian casualties.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7748 Location: Petah Tikva

We stopped because Olmert wasnt prepared to take the next step or accept what kind of campaign this was going to be. I really do wish we had Begin back for something like this...

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

augustus kafka wrote: if you consider the short term to be more important than the long term, yes.

in the end, you're creating a lot more bombings than you're stopping. better to take a couple of bombings now and never have bombings again than to constantly take bombings.

Happy Palestinians = Happy Israelis.

What makes you think there will be a couple of bombing and then it will just stop? And why should Israel tolerate any dead Israelis?

*shakes head*

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

IDF imposes closure on W. Bank and Gaza Strip

Quote: The IDF imposed a general closure on the West Bank and Gaza Strip for the duration of Rosh Hashana and Police raised the level of alert to one below the highest in the wake of warnings that terrorist groups were planning attacks over the holiday period.

The IDF said that despite the closure teachers, lawyers and those working in the medical and religious fields would be granted special permission to move freely to and from those areas.

In addition, the IDF said that Rafah Crossing would remain open for the next two days, enabling Palestinians to cross to and from Egypt for humanitarian purposes.

linkage

Happy new year everyone, welcome to your jail for the next two weeks...

IMPUNITY?