Political Crossfire Forums

[fiction416]

Daily, I find backwards news coming out of Israel. Things that are wrong, yet ignored by the majority of people & brushed to the side in terms of morall importance.

I though a thread that contained equitable links from news sources would be a good collection idea.

Here is my first example:

Quote: Israel continues banning Gazans from studying in West Bank

The defense establishment said on Thursday it would continue banning Palestinian students from the Gaza Strip from studying in the West Bank.

Hundreds of Palestinian students whom Israel has prevented from continuing studies in West Bank universities for the past six years have recently petitioned the High Court of Justice to instruct the state to allow them to complete their studies.

The petition was supported by Israeli professors, who protested the infringement on the students' freedom to study....

SOURCE

[X-Shocker]

Why would you want to educate anyone who is so willing to kill your countrymen?

[slitedeviance]

X-Shocker wrote: Why would you want to educate anyone who is so willing to kill your countrymen?

Because every single Palestinian is willing to do this!! Explains why there are queues of people, all suited up and just itching to throw themselves across the fake border and blow every Jew they can find up.

Dangerous generlisation that does nothing but promote division.

[Secondary Oak]

You seem to have forgotten to paste another important section from the article. Here, I did it for you:

Your source wrote: Israel Defense Forces and Shin Bet officials told Defense Minister Amir Peretz on Thursday that they could not agree to the students' demand, because of intelligence indicating that terrorist groups in the West Bank contacted individuals who moved freely between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and used them to transfer information and instructions.

Whether or not you agree with the Israeli position, you should nevertheless present it. You have to understand that things like that wouldn't happen if it weren't for Palestinian terrorism. Look at the Palestinian conditions before 1987, between 1991 and 1994, and between 1996 and 2000 for reference.

Now, the question is what you consider more important - the careers of hundreds of Palestinians or the lives of hundreds of Israelis. I'd say that as important as careers are, lives mean a lot more. I don't know if you'll agree, but I think the Israeli government will agree with me. Israel isn't just randomly making life harder for the Palestinians. It does this because it has to. And before you reply, please take up on my suggestion and read on the Palestinian conditions in those years I mentioned. There were hardly any roadblocks before the first intifada. There weren't any air strikes before the second.

[mr_happy]

Secondary Oak is right. However, you have to draw a line between security and rights. If Israel really fears the students that much, then they need to either allow professors from the west bank to make trips to Gaza, or get ISraeli professors to come down and teach. College is a very important part of a successful country, and it is in ISrael's inerest to make sure that the PA succeeds.

Are Palestinians allowed in ISraeli colleges?

[Zoot]

Policies like this create more terrorism than they prevent.

[Saracen]

Zoot wrote: Policies like this create more terrorism than they prevent.

+1.

Nice to see you again, Zoot.

[superskippy]

Quote: Policies like this create more terrorism than they prevent.

There is a difference between creating an upset or angry person who might turn to a terrorist organization, and preventing the attacks themselves. The latter is what matters most for now.

[augustus kafka]

if you consider the short term to be more important than the long term, yes.

in the end, you're creating a lot more bombings than you're stopping. better to take a couple of bombings now and never have bombings again than to constantly take bombings.

Happy Palestinians = Happy Israelis.

[fiction416]

Quote: 'Gaza is a jail. Nobody is allowed to leave. We are all starving now'



Gaza is dying. The Israeli siege of the Palestinian enclave is so tight that its people are on the edge of starvation. Here on the shores of the Mediterranean a great tragedy is taking place that is being ignored because the world's attention has been diverted by wars in Lebanon and Iraq.

A whole society is being destroyed. There are 1.5 million Palestinians imprisoned in the most heavily populated area in the world. Israel has stopped all trade. It has even forbidden fishermen to go far from the shore so they wade into the surf to try vainly to catch fish with hand-thrown nets.

Many people are being killed by Israeli incursions that occur every day by land and air. A total of 262 people have been killed and 1,200 wounded, of whom 60 had arms or legs amputated, since 25 June, says Dr Juma al-Saqa, the director of the al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City which is fast running out of medicine. Of these, 64 were children and 26 women. This bloody conflict in Gaza has so far received only a fraction of the attention given by the international media to the war in Lebanon.

It was on 25 June that the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was taken captive and two other soldiers were killed by Palestinian militants who used a tunnel to get out of the Gaza Strip. In the aftermath of this, writes Gideon Levy in the daily Haaretz, the Israeli army "has been rampaging through Gaza - there's no other word to describe it - killing and demolishing, bombing and shelling, indiscriminately". Gaza has essentially been reoccupied since Israeli troops and tanks come and go at will. In the northern district of Shajhayeh they took over several houses last week and stayed five days. By the time they withdrew, 22 Palestinians had been killed, three houses were destroyed and groves of olive, citrus and almond trees had been bulldozed.

Fuad al-Tuba, the 61-year-old farmer who owned a farm here, said: "They even destroyed 22 of my bee-hives and killed four sheep." He pointed sadly to a field, its brown sandy earth churned up by tracks of bulldozers, where the stumps of trees and broken branches with wilting leaves lay in heaps. Near by a yellow car was standing on its nose in the middle of a heap of concrete blocks that had once been a small house.

His son Baher al-Tuba described how for five days Israeli soldiers confined him and his relatives to one room in his house where they survived by drinking water from a fish pond. "Snipers took up positions in the windows and shot at anybody who came near," he said. "They killed one of my neighbours called Fathi Abu Gumbuz who was 56 years old and just went out to get water."

Sometimes the Israeli army gives a warning before a house is destroyed. The sound that Palestinians most dread is an unknown voice on their cell phone saying they have half an hour to leave their home before it is hit by bombs or missiles. There is no appeal.

But it is not the Israeli incursions alone that are destroying Gaza and its people. In the understated prose of a World Bank report published last month, the West Bank and Gaza face "a year of unprecedented economic recession. Real incomes may contract by at least a third in 2006 and poverty to affect close to two thirds of the population." Poverty in this case means a per capita income of under $2 (£1.06) a day.

There are signs of desperation everywhere. Crime is increasing. People do anything to feed their families. Israeli troops entered the Gaza industrial zone to search for tunnels and kicked out the Palestinian police. When the Israelis withdrew they were replaced not by the police but by looters. On one day this week there were three donkey carts removing twisted scrap metal from the remains of factories that once employed thousands.

"It is the worst year for us since 1948 [when Palestinian refugees first poured into Gaza]," says Dr Maged Abu-Ramadan, a former ophthalmologist who is mayor of Gaza City. "Gaza is a jail. Neither people nor goods are allowed to leave it. People are already starving. They try to live on bread and falafel and a few tomatoes and cucumbers they grow themselves."

The few ways that Gazans had of making money have disappeared. Dr Abu-Ramadan says the Israelis "have destroyed 70 per cent of our orange groves in order to create security zones." Carnations and strawberries, two of Gaza's main exports, were thrown away or left to rot. An Israeli air strike destroyed the electric power station so 55 per cent of power was lost. Electricity supply is now becoming almost as intermittent as in Baghdad.

The Israeli assault over the past two months struck a society already hit by the withdrawal of EU subsidies after the election of Hamas as the Palestinian government in March. Israel is withholding taxes owed on goods entering Gaza. Under US pressure, Arab banks abroad will not transfer funds to the government.

Two thirds of people are unemployed and the remaining third who mostly work for the state are not being paid. Gaza is now by far the poorest region on the Mediterranean. Per capita annual income is $700, compared with $20,000 in Israel. Conditions are much worse than in Lebanon where Hizbollah liberally compensates war victims for loss of their houses. If Gaza did not have enough troubles this week there were protest strikes and marches by unpaid soldiers, police and security men. These were organised by Fatah, the movement of the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, which lost the election to Hamas in January. His supporters marched through the streets waving their Kalashnikovs in the air. "Abu Mazen you are brave," they shouted. "Save us from this disaster." Sour-looking Hamas gunmen kept a low profile during the demonstration but the two sides are not far from fighting it out in the streets.

The Israeli siege and the European boycott are a collective punishment of everybody in Gaza. The gunmen are unlikely to be deterred. In a bed in Shifa Hospital was a sturdy young man called Ala Hejairi with wounds to his neck, legs, chest and stomach. "I was laying an anti-tank mine last week in Shajhayeh when I was hit by fire from an Israeli drone," he said. "I will return to the resistance when I am better. Why should I worry? If I die I will die a martyr and go to paradise."

His father, Adel, said he was proud of what his son had done adding that three of his nephews were already martyrs. He supported the Hamas government: "Arab and Western countries want to destroy this government because it is the government of the resistance."

As the economy collapses there will be many more young men in Gaza willing to take Ala Hejairi's place. Untrained and ill-armed most will be killed. But the destruction of Gaza, now under way, will ensure that no peace is possible in the Middle East for generations to come.

The deadly toll

* After the kidnap of Cpl Gilad Shalit by Palestinians on 25 June, Israel launched a massive offensive and blockade of Gaza under the operation name Summer Rains.

* The Gaza Strip's 1.3 million inhabitants, 33 per cent of whom live in refugee camps, have been under attack for 74 days.

* More than 260 Palestinians, including 64 children and 26 women, have been killed since 25 June. One in five is a child. One Israeli soldier has been killed and 26 have been wounded.

* 1,200 Palestinians have been injured, including up to 60 amputations. A third of victims brought to hospital are children.

* Israeli warplanes have launched more than 250 raids on Gaza, hitting the two power stations and the foreign and Information ministries.

* At least 120 Palestinian structures including houses, workshops and greenhouses have been destroyed and 160 damaged by the Israelis.

* The UN has criticised Israel's bombing, which has caused an estimated $1.8bn in damage to the electricity grid and leaving more than a million people without regular access to drinking water.

* The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem says 76 Palestinians, including 19 children, were killed by Israeli forces in August alone. Evidence shows at least 53 per cent were not participating in hostilities.

* In the latest outbreak of violence, three Palestinians were killed yesterday when Israeli troops raided a West Bank town in search of a wanted militant. Two of those killed were unarmed, according to witnesses.

SOURCE

[the sane voice]

so now they know.violence is not the answer.dont kidnap our soldiers.

[mr_happy]

casualty counts make no relevance. however if you want one fact:

Israel is the only country in the world to wage an urban war and kill more militants than civillians. Hats off to ISrael.

[nrhy]

mr_happy wrote: casualty counts make no relevance. however if you want one fact:

Israel is the only country in the world to wage an urban war and kill more militants than civillians. Hats off to ISrael.

I´d like to see the source that supports this.

[superskippy]

Quote: in the end, you're creating a lot more bombings than you're stopping. better to take a couple of bombings now and never have bombings again than to constantly take bombings.

Actually with the erection of the Gaza barrier and the West Bank barrier and the deployment of IDF troops and our own laws and government actions put into effect the attacks have dropped to a very low level. There is a reason that rockets are the main weapon of choice.

[skinn]

mr_happy wrote: casualty counts make no relevance. however if you want one fact:

Israel is the only country in the world to wage an urban war and kill more militants than civillians. Hats off to ISrael.

one word: lebanon.

P.S: don't give me the bull***t about killing 6oo or 700 militants, IDF propaganda don't count.

[superskippy]

If you dont want to hear the truth of the several hundred Hezbollah fighters who died then that is your own choice. We will not force you I suppose to accept it nor do I think we can. We must content ourselves looking at the statistics and what will now come to determine things further.

Also he said waging an urban war with having more military than civilian casualties which we have done before. We did it in Jerusalem probably the heaviest and most succesful, in Jenin, in Gaza, and elsewhere. We reguarlily operate in urban areas and have done an excellent job at reducing civilian casualties on the ground and maximizing combatant casualties.

[Pebble]

'skip wrote: Quote: Policies like this create more terrorism than they prevent.


There is a difference between creating an upset or angry person who might turn to a terrorist organization, and preventing the attacks themselves. The latter is what matters most for now.

I disagree, if you keep focusing on limiting the damage you'll get nowhere, surely the constant cycles of violence in the Middle East prove this. You need to treat the disease not its symptoms.

Israel, and indeed any opf the states in the 'War on terror' need to stop looking at short-term gains and focus on defeating terrorism in the long run.

the sane voice wrote: so now they know.violence is not the answer.dont kidnap our soldiers.

That applies to Israel too.

[lowchen]

Secondary Oak wrote: You have to understand that things like that wouldn't happen if it weren't for Palestinian terrorism. Look at the Palestinian conditions before 1987, between 1991 and 1994, and between 1996 and 2000 for reference.

Ok. point taken. Lets look at Palestinian condition in 1910 or 1927 or 1936. Were they blowing themsleves up en mass on buses then? Where were the Palestinian terrorists then? The disconnect that your countrymen have yet to realize is that this terrorism didnt appear from thin air.

[lowchen]

Secondary Oak wrote: You have to understand that things like that wouldn't happen if it weren't for Palestinian terrorism. Look at the Palestinian conditions before 1987, between 1991 and 1994, and between 1996 and 2000 for reference.

Ok. point taken. Lets look at Palestinian condition in 1910 or 1927 or 1936. Were they blowing themsleves up en mass on buses then? Where were the Palestinian terrorists then? The disconnect that your countrymen have yet to realize is that this terrorism didnt appear from thin air.

[Secondary Oak]

lowchen wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: You have to understand that things like that wouldn't happen if it weren't for Palestinian terrorism. Look at the Palestinian conditions before 1987, between 1991 and 1994, and between 1996 and 2000 for reference.

Ok. point taken. Lets look at Palestinian condition in 1910 or 1927 or 1936. Were they blowing themsleves up en mass on buses then? Where were the Palestinian terrorists then? The disconnect that your countrymen have yet to realize is that this terrorism didnt appear from thin air.
You're evading my argument. My point is that the Palestinians would have fared a lot better if they would not have used terrorism. I brought those years to substantiate my point. The Palestinian condition before 1948 was identical to the conditions of all people in the region - living under foreign rule (Ottoman and then British). I don't see how this is relevant.

And honestly, I'm pretty sick about how so many threads in this forum deteriorate into examining the events prior to, or during, 1948. I agree there's a lot to discuss there, but in this regard this is off-topic.

I'm not saying the Palestinians had it fine and dandy forever. I can certainly understand, for example, what created the first Intifada. My point is that contrary to what I would have done in their stead (and probably you too) once Israel became committed to a Palestinian Autonomy - an independent country of their own - the violence from their side increased tenfold.

Whenever people mention the Palestinian suffering I get frustrated. Yes, they certainly do suffer, a lot more than many other people in this world. But I remember the years between 1996 and 2000. Their situation was peachy compared to what it is now. Many Israelis and Palestinians were optimistic about the future. And consequently, many in Israel had been shocked when the Palestinians chose to answer the Israeli negotiations with violence in 2000. It practically killed Israel's political left - the leftist parties have not recovered until now.

Not to say the Palestinians are all senseless monsters. Not to say that the deal Israel offered them was perfect. But nevertheless they chose extreme violence over negotiations. Their inability to compromise is the main reason for Israel's policies towards them. Something very similar happened in 1994 with the beginning of the suicide-bombing campaign against Israel.

To address your point:
lowchen wrote: terrorism didnt appear from thin air
No, it didn't. It appeared every time Israel has made something to improve the Palestinian condition.


Now, you're more than welcome to try and sway my opinion. Hell, I'm still young and inexperienced. But I'm not too young to remember what happened between 1996 and 2000. I'm not too young to remember the outbreak of violence in late 2000. And I'm certainly not too young to remember how the Palestinians used the areas Israel left in Gaza, just last year, to shoot rockets into Israel. I remember how everyone was optimistic about how the Palestinians will use those areas to ease the population density and build greenhouses.

So, someone wants to make a thread about what's wrong in Israel? I can tell you, many things are wrong in Israel. Too much corruption. No serious video games companies. No civil unions. Speed limit too low in some roads.

But as for the Palestinians? I don't think I'll ever forgive them for what they've done to Israel. People keep saying "can't you see that by doing this and this, Israel is just creating more hate among the Palestinians, fueling terror". Well, maybe. But how come nobody says "can't you see that by constantly killing Israelis, the Palestinians are just creating more hate among the Israelis, tilting public opinion against them"?

Well, this rant is getting long, but I just had to vent some frustration. And keep in mind I do hope the situation for the Palestinians will improve. I see them as people without a nation - much like the Jewish people were 60 years ago. So the Palestinians didn't undergo the holocaust, so what? That doesn't mean they don't deserve a country. And Israel could have definitely done more in that regard. However, again and again they were offered the opportunity and again and again they responded with terrorism. I'm not saying that because that's what I've read or heard somewhere. I'm saying this because I've seen it with my own eyes.








But hey, I'm still optimistic. The Europeans had been fighting each other for centuries, sometimes even over religious reasons, and yet now they're slowly but surely making their way toward creating a federation.