Political Crossfire Forums

[=CNP=]

gavnook wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box...

Only if you don't play by the rules. You are not forced to pay US taxes. You can either 1) make little money, or 2) leave the country and denounce your citizenship. You are only required to pay taxes if you work here and make a certain amount of money. That is not being "forced" in my view.

Is it not my right to work as I may?

For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

[Katsumoto]

=CNP= wrote: gavnook wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box...

Only if you don't play by the rules. You are not forced to pay US taxes. You can either 1) make little money, or 2) leave the country and denounce your citizenship. You are only required to pay taxes if you work here and make a certain amount of money. That is not being "forced" in my view.

Is it not my right to work as I may?

For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

On what premise do you base that assertion?

[LostSoul3412]

=CNP= wrote: For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

You're assuming that freedom comes from the government, which it doesn't. People are naturally free, government suspends some of that freedom in the sake of social benefit.

Your only duty is to keep the government from overstepping itself.

[Free Thinkr]

=CNP= wrote: gavnook wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box...

Only if you don't play by the rules. You are not forced to pay US taxes. You can either 1) make little money, or 2) leave the country and denounce your citizenship. You are only required to pay taxes if you work here and make a certain amount of money. That is not being "forced" in my view.

Is it not my right to work as I may?

For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.
Ah, the precious freedom to do as you're told!

[Iriemon]

thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box...

Only if you don't play by the rules. You are not forced to pay US taxes. You can either 1) make little money, or 2) leave the country and denounce your citizenship. You are only required to pay taxes if you work here and make a certain amount of money. That is not being "forced" in my view.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me...

You may not like the choices, but it is a big difference between having a choice you don't like and being forced where you have no choice at all.
You and I both know the only way you can keep from paying US taxes today is to denounce your citizenship and move out.

I don't see that I have a choice at all what with my roots being firmly planted here and no desire to go elsewhere. All I can do is work to change the 'rules'.

Well, fair enough. You are only "forced" because you make that choice. It is not the same as theft, where you have no choice.

[Iriemon]

thintheherd wrote: Katsumoto wrote: thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box...

Only if you don't play by the rules. You are not forced to pay US taxes. You can either 1) make little money, or 2) leave the country and denounce your citizenship. You are only required to pay taxes if you work here and make a certain amount of money. That is not being "forced" in my view.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me...

You may not like the choices, but it is a big difference between having a choice you don't like and being forced where you have no choice at all.
You and I both know the only way you can keep from paying US taxes today is to denounce your citizenship and move out.

I don't see that I have a choice at all what with my roots being firmly planted here and no desire to go elsewhere. All I can do is work to change the 'rules'.

Actually that is not completely true. The US government requires even those who have renounced citizenship to pay taxes for a period of up to 10 years.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html

^ Just one more reason to rid ourselves this abomination we call the income tax. :1evil:

What were those choices again iremon? :roll:

Yeah, apparently you are still be subject to US tax in certain circumstances. So much for that strategy.

[dkong911]

=CNP= wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: ((Since no one likes paying taxes,

I like paying my taxes.

It feels good to know my money is paying for protection of my country, and provideing education, healthcare and needed social programs to my people.

When it comes to taxes, the more the better.

Feel free to pay more taxes than you have to. No one will stop you. Just don't force your countrymen to submit to your belief that more taxes are a good thing.

[Kindred]

thintheherd wrote: Katsumoto wrote: thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box...

Only if you don't play by the rules. You are not forced to pay US taxes. You can either 1) make little money, or 2) leave the country and denounce your citizenship. You are only required to pay taxes if you work here and make a certain amount of money. That is not being "forced" in my view.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me...

You may not like the choices, but it is a big difference between having a choice you don't like and being forced where you have no choice at all.
You and I both know the only way you can keep from paying US taxes today is to denounce your citizenship and move out.

I don't see that I have a choice at all what with my roots being firmly planted here and no desire to go elsewhere. All I can do is work to change the 'rules'.

Actually that is not completely true. The US government requires even those who have renounced citizenship to pay taxes for a period of up to 10 years.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html

^ Just one more reason to rid ourselves this abomination we call the income tax. :1evil:

What were those choices again iremon? :roll:

I'm quite sure that would remain the same if you have a flat tax for example. Why would it be any different?

I believe the most justifiable taxation system is one which taxes social and environmental externalities combined with a land value tax.

[Free Thinkr]

Kindred wrote: thintheherd wrote: Katsumoto wrote: thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: thintheherd wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box...

Only if you don't play by the rules. You are not forced to pay US taxes. You can either 1) make little money, or 2) leave the country and denounce your citizenship. You are only required to pay taxes if you work here and make a certain amount of money. That is not being "forced" in my view.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me...

You may not like the choices, but it is a big difference between having a choice you don't like and being forced where you have no choice at all.
You and I both know the only way you can keep from paying US taxes today is to denounce your citizenship and move out.

I don't see that I have a choice at all what with my roots being firmly planted here and no desire to go elsewhere. All I can do is work to change the 'rules'.

Actually that is not completely true. The US government requires even those who have renounced citizenship to pay taxes for a period of up to 10 years.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html

^ Just one more reason to rid ourselves this abomination we call the income tax. :1evil:

What were those choices again iremon? :roll:

I'm quite sure that would remain the same if you have a flat tax for example. Why would it be any different?
Excellent point. The answer is 'it wouldn't.' People argue this point from a perspective of lesser evils versus greater evils, ignoring the fact that the categorization of these evils is wholly subjective.

Quote: I believe the most justifiable taxation system is one which taxes social and environmental externalities combined with a land value tax.
Quoted for truth. It's an odd path we've come to be in agreement, but I think we generally agree, and are correct. Arbitrarily taxing this or that is theft; fees for use of valued land and against externalities are not arbitrary, and therefore are just, IMO.

[=CNP=]

LostSoul3412 wrote: =CNP= wrote: For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

You're assuming that freedom comes from the government, which it doesn't. People are naturally free, government suspends some of that freedom in the sake of social benefit.

Your only duty is to keep the government from overstepping itself.

The people are the government, so yes, your freedom does come from your government. Becasue it is the people, the government that fights off those whould would enslave us. Makes sure my land, our land, is just and fair for all.

The government asking for taxes, for us to respect each other and put others before ourselves, for us to do our part, is exactly like us asking something of ourselves.

Because I think this way is why I'm constantly confused by Americans. Fearing your own government is like fearing yourself or your own shadow.

[dkong911]

=CNP= wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: =CNP= wrote: For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

You're assuming that freedom comes from the government, which it doesn't. People are naturally free, government suspends some of that freedom in the sake of social benefit.

Your only duty is to keep the government from overstepping itself.

The people are the government, so yes, your freedom does come from your government. Becasue it is the people, the government that fights off those whould would enslave us. Makes sure my land, our land, is just and fair for all.

The government asking for taxes, for us to respect each other and put others before ourselves, for us to do our part, is exactly like us asking something of ourselves.

Because I think this way is why I'm constantly confused by Americans. Fearing your own government is like fearing yourself or your own shadow.

If you are going to say the government is asking for taxes, then there won't be a problem if I turn down the request. This is precisely what many in this thread are doing. In actuality, the government is coercing us into paying taxes; for this reason, we see it fit to limit these taxes to only what is truly necessary to fund the state, so that the state may carry out only what functions of the state the people deem necessary and/or just. I fail to see how this an example of Americans fearing the government. Just criticism that we are well within our rights to give should not be mistaken for fear. This concept seems to be lacking in Canada, which is why I am actually confused by many Canadians. Not criticising your own government's faults is like refusing to change or even admit your own personal faults; after all, the people and the government are synonymous, as you said.

[Kindred]

dkong911 wrote: =CNP= wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: =CNP= wrote: For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

You're assuming that freedom comes from the government, which it doesn't. People are naturally free, government suspends some of that freedom in the sake of social benefit.

Your only duty is to keep the government from overstepping itself.

The people are the government, so yes, your freedom does come from your government. Becasue it is the people, the government that fights off those whould would enslave us. Makes sure my land, our land, is just and fair for all.

The government asking for taxes, for us to respect each other and put others before ourselves, for us to do our part, is exactly like us asking something of ourselves.

Because I think this way is why I'm constantly confused by Americans. Fearing your own government is like fearing yourself or your own shadow.

If you are going to say the government is asking for taxes, then there won't be a problem if I turn down the request. This is precisely what many in this thread are doing. In actuality, the government is coercing us into paying taxes; for this reason, we see it fit to limit these taxes to only what is truly necessary to fund the state, so that the state may carry out only what functions of the state the people deem necessary and/or just.

I hope you can see how absurdly you contradict yourself here.

Quote: for this reason, we see it fit to limit these taxes to only what is truly necessary to fund the state, so that the state may carry out only what functions of the state the people deem necessary and/or just

Such a ‘function’ is vague and really quite meaningless. Furthermore, given the parameters you’ve defined, tax can justly be whatever the “people deem necessary and/or just”, it can hence be much higher or much lower than it is currently, but the defining feature which makes it ‘just’ according to you is not actually the tax rate, which is coercive no matter what the rate is, but whether the citizens of that nation desire it or not. If they do desire a progressive income tax which taxes the rich at exorbitant rates, there is nothing wrong with that as, according to you, is what the people “deem necessary and/or just”.

You need to rethink your position and get some consistency.

[LostSoul3412]

=CNP= wrote: The people are the government, so yes, your freedom does come from your government. Becasue it is the people, the government that fights off those whould would enslave us. Makes sure my land, our land, is just and fair for all.

So the government gives you freedom through protection?

=CNP= wrote: The government asking for taxes, for us to respect each other and put others before ourselves, for us to do our part, is exactly like us asking something of ourselves.

I fail to see the analogy. Society asking something of you is the same as asking yourself for something?

=CNP= wrote: Because I think this way is why I'm constantly confused by Americans. Fearing your own government is like fearing yourself or your own shadow.

Our country was founded upon a fear of government, because government as a tendency to grow, become bigger and bigger, incorporate more and more rights, until eventually we lose our right to dissent. The United States was founded upon our right to dissent, and to lose that right is to lose the spirit of this nation. Basically put, we're not sheep.

[=CNP=]

Quote: So the government gives you freedom through protection?

Yes.

Protection under that law, protection of rights and from Nazis.

Quote: I fail to see the analogy. Society asking something of you is the same as asking yourself for something?

Society and government are not the same thing.

Would you like to rephrase?

Quote: Our country was founded upon a fear of government, because government as a tendency to grow, become bigger and bigger, incorporate more and more rights, until eventually we lose our right to dissent. The United States was founded upon our right to dissent, and to lose that right is to lose the spirit of this nation. Basically put, we're not sheep.

No, your sheep to own irrational fear.

[LostSoul3412]

=CNP= wrote: Quote: So the government gives you freedom through protection?

Yes.

Protection under that law, protection of rights and from Nazis.

Funny that you would bring up Nazi Germany, because that's were I was heading with my question.

Nazi Germany provided a great amount of security to the German people, did that make them free?

=CNP= wrote: Society and government are not the same thing.

Would you like to rephrase?

No, but that's my point.

You said, "[To] put others before ourselves... is exactly like us asking something of ourselves." My point is that I fail to see how those two equate each other.

=CNP= wrote: No, your sheep to own irrational fear.

It is better to be paranoid than blind.

[gavnook]

=CNP= wrote: Quote: So the government gives you freedom through protection?

Yes.

Protection under that law, protection of rights and from Nazis.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Nazis are currently no serious threat to anyone, and they were never a threat to people living in North America.

Further, the National Socialist party gained control of the German government in accordance with Germany's democratic constitution, which itself was a product of other democratic governments, like mine. Then, they taxed the people of Germany and built gas chambers with the revenue, among other things. What a great thing that the German people payed their taxes like every good little citizen should.

[Katsumoto]

I feel I must address some of the blatant falsehoods presented by =CNP=

=CNP= wrote:
The people are the government

Myth. You are suffering from an insidious form of Stockholm Syndrome. The government is an organization of some people (“elites”) who claim a monopoly of force over all within a given territory. The government has no relation to you, doesn’t care about you, will not mourn your passing, nor remember you fondly.

The government is not some benevolent benefactor of humanity. Governments world wide are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions in this century alone. Murder, torture, theft, rape, and fraud, are all tools-of-the-trade of government and are used the world over every day to control their slave-like subjects and impose their wills on other nations.

The myth of “We” is a dangerous one. When ever I see it I see a cog in the machine—a willing tool of the state. It is really sad to see people so tamed by their slave masters that they actually cannot distinguish between themselves and those who enslave them.

Quote: your freedom does come from your government.

Where then does government get the power to bestow freedom? Before you stated that the people are the government. If that is true, then in order for the government to bestow freedom the people must first possess it themselves. A government, which is made up of men who are not free, could not possibly bestow freedom on anyone, since it is not in their possession in the first place. Therefore men must have freedom innately. Men must be born free. Government then is not the originator of freedom, since all men are born free. Therefore, government can only either leave men free or take their freedom. To do the former would be to not govern at all, thus it is the later which government must do.

Quote: …the government that fights off those [who] would enslave us.

Another contradiction. As I demonstrated above, the government, in order to govern, must take men’s freedom. A man who is not free, is then a slave. Therefore in order to fight those who would enslave us, the government must fight itself.

Quote: Makes sure my land, our land, is just and fair for all.

Ask yourself if government actually does this (or can). If it did then no one could have any complaint. There would be no need for further legislation, no need for multiple parties, or elections, there would be no scandals, no government waste, no special interests, no guilty men sent free or innocent men imprisoned. In short, utopia, which of course is impossible. With a little critical thought it should be clear to you that the task of ensuring universal justice is impossible, which is then a strong argument against government provision of justice.

Simply put, the purpose of justice is to protect good men from evil men. Evil men seek power over other men, while good men seek only mutually beneficial relations with other men. If evil men are common, making justice a monopoly power of government will only attract evil men to government, on the other hand, if evil men are rare, then government is not needed.

Quote: The government asking for taxes

As was mentioned by another poster, this is a clear fallacy. To claim the government “asks” for taxes, presupposes the possibility to refuse the request. Since that is not possible, it is not a request, but rather a demand, backed with the threat of force. In essence it is robbery. The regular and permanent nature of the continued robbery makes it de-facto slavery.

Quote: Fearing your own government is like fearing yourself or your own shadow.

A very telling statement. That men fear their government should tell you something of the nature of government.

[dkong911]

Kindred wrote: dkong911 wrote: =CNP= wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: =CNP= wrote: For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

You're assuming that freedom comes from the government, which it doesn't. People are naturally free, government suspends some of that freedom in the sake of social benefit.

Your only duty is to keep the government from overstepping itself.

The people are the government, so yes, your freedom does come from your government. Becasue it is the people, the government that fights off those whould would enslave us. Makes sure my land, our land, is just and fair for all.

The government asking for taxes, for us to respect each other and put others before ourselves, for us to do our part, is exactly like us asking something of ourselves.

Because I think this way is why I'm constantly confused by Americans. Fearing your own government is like fearing yourself or your own shadow.

If you are going to say the government is asking for taxes, then there won't be a problem if I turn down the request. This is precisely what many in this thread are doing. In actuality, the government is coercing us into paying taxes; for this reason, we see it fit to limit these taxes to only what is truly necessary to fund the state, so that the state may carry out only what functions of the state the people deem necessary and/or just.

I hope you can see how absurdly you contradict yourself here.

Quote: for this reason, we see it fit to limit these taxes to only what is truly necessary to fund the state, so that the state may carry out only what functions of the state the people deem necessary and/or just

Such a ‘function’ is vague and really quite meaningless. Furthermore, given the parameters you’ve defined, tax can justly be whatever the “people deem necessary and/or just”, it can hence be much higher or much lower than it is currently, but the defining feature which makes it ‘just’ according to you is not actually the tax rate, which is coercive no matter what the rate is, but whether the citizens of that nation desire it or not. If they do desire a progressive income tax which taxes the rich at exorbitant rates, there is nothing wrong with that as, according to you, is what the people “deem necessary and/or just”.

You need to rethink your position and get some consistency.

My position is totally consistent.

All I said was the people will determine the tax rates in order to fund the state for what is deemed necessary and just by the same people. Therefore, the argument lies in what is necessary and just, and whether or not said taxes violate basic rights.

[bob.appleyard]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Nazi Germany provided a great amount of security to the German people, did that make them free?

Actually, they were less secure than under Weimar. They promised security, but ended up starting a war (which they lost), rounded up loads of them into camps, turned everyone into amateur spies... not what I would call security.

[Kindred]

dkong911 wrote: Kindred wrote: dkong911 wrote: =CNP= wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: =CNP= wrote: For every right and freedom you have, you also have an eqaul ammount of duty and responsibility.

If you want those rights and freedoms, you got to pull your wight. Sorry, but you want have it just one way.

You're assuming that freedom comes from the government, which it doesn't. People are naturally free, government suspends some of that freedom in the sake of social benefit.

Your only duty is to keep the government from overstepping itself.

The people are the government, so yes, your freedom does come from your government. Becasue it is the people, the government that fights off those whould would enslave us. Makes sure my land, our land, is just and fair for all.

The government asking for taxes, for us to respect each other and put others before ourselves, for us to do our part, is exactly like us asking something of ourselves.

Because I think this way is why I'm constantly confused by Americans. Fearing your own government is like fearing yourself or your own shadow.

If you are going to say the government is asking for taxes, then there won't be a problem if I turn down the request. This is precisely what many in this thread are doing. In actuality, the government is coercing us into paying taxes; for this reason, we see it fit to limit these taxes to only what is truly necessary to fund the state, so that the state may carry out only what functions of the state the people deem necessary and/or just.

I hope you can see how absurdly you contradict yourself here.

Quote: for this reason, we see it fit to limit these taxes to only what is truly necessary to fund the state, so that the state may carry out only what functions of the state the people deem necessary and/or just

Such a ‘function’ is vague and really quite meaningless. Furthermore, given the parameters you’ve defined, tax can justly be whatever the “people deem necessary and/or just”, it can hence be much higher or much lower than it is currently, but the defining feature which makes it ‘just’ according to you is not actually the tax rate, which is coercive no matter what the rate is, but whether the citizens of that nation desire it or not. If they do desire a progressive income tax which taxes the rich at exorbitant rates, there is nothing wrong with that as, according to you, is what the people “deem necessary and/or just”.

You need to rethink your position and get some consistency.

My position is totally consistent.

All I said was the people will determine the tax rates in order to fund the state for what is deemed necessary and just by the same people. Therefore, the argument lies in what is necessary and just, and whether or not said taxes violate basic rights.
Ya, you don't get it.