Political Crossfire Forums

[=CNP=]

gavnook wrote: =CNP= wrote: The services you get from the government are directly proportional to the ammount of taxes you pay.

Where do you get this idea?

Money doest flutter away and disapear. In a country of paper, you can fallow the paper and see where it leads.

Do that in Canada, other then foriegn aid money, the money ends up staying in Canada.

So the taxes I pay is building Canada, and supporting me and other Canadains.

While in America, if you fallow that trail of paper, you just find it ends up in the hands of corperations who do nothing in return, other then fund some certain political campains.

Because the American government misuess it's taxes, doenst mean taxes are bad.

Quote: I thought you said "the more the better"?

Don't take things out of context.

If I say "the more the better" if somebody says "Canada plans to get more tanks" it doenst mean "We need 10,000".

Grow up.

Quote: Sure thing... I promise that it'll all go to good use.

And that's the lovely thing about democracy, if you dont put it to good use, you get voted out and if your used it for bad things you could even get tossed in jail.

When you promise something it means you do it, or get punished for not.

Quote: A tax on income is unconstitutional...

- How so
- It's a stupid and out dated document anyways.

[ubikk]

LostSoul3412 wrote: ((Since no one likes paying taxes, the question is worded as to which would be most tolerable.))

Considering if you had the power to change the tax policy, which system would you instate?

Personally, I would like to see a Flat Income Tax, meaning that regardless of income, everyone pays the same percentage of their income taken directly off their paychecks. That way, it's instituted as an equal percentage of everyone, and prevents tax breaks for certain groups. On top of that, by taking the money directly off the paychecks, once the money gets to the individual, it's all theirs.

What say you?

I support a VAT or CAT. No more income tax.

[LostSoul3412]

=CNP= wrote: And that's the lovely thing about democracy, if you dont put it to good use, you get voted out and if your used it for bad things you could even get tossed in jail.

Whatever, just give me 95% of your money so I can retire by the time the next elections roll around.

[Free Thinkr]

=CNP= wrote: gavnook wrote: A tax on income is unconstitutional...

- How so
It required an amendment.

Quote: - It's a stupid and out dated document anyways.
LOL. Yeah, no doubt. It didn't account for a society where the government would control people's very income, and arbitrarily decide how much they're "allowed" to keep. *sniff* *sniff* I effin' love the smell of tyranny in the morning.

What a blight on society the income tax is.

[=CNP=]

LostSoul3412 wrote: =CNP= wrote: And that's the lovely thing about democracy, if you dont put it to good use, you get voted out and if your used it for bad things you could even get tossed in jail.

Whatever, just give me 95% of your money so I can retire by the time the next elections roll around.

Do you even have point or are you just so full of s**t it has begun to spill out your mouth?

[LostSoul3412]

=CNP= wrote: Do you even have point or are you just so full of s**t it has begun to spill out your mouth?

Yes, my point is that your ideals on taxes and government are a bit skewed. While it isn't my place to quash nationalism, I also have to interpret comments like "the more taxes the better", and saying that you like to pay so long as it goes to the government, only lead me to believe that you have never actually had to earn your own money.

[=CNP=]

Quote: only lead me to believe that you have never actually had to earn your own money.

Have I ever been tight with money to the point where I needed every dime? No, but doenst mean I have no concecpt of life. I know how if feels to work hard, only to see a chuck of it disapear, it hurts.

But that money that is taken off may not directly be put in my hand, but I know I can walk down the street in safty, know that if I have kids they will have a good and fair education, and if I get hurt I'll be helped without question.

And to me, that's more then worth the money that is "stolen" off my paycheck.

Also, money isn't an immportant thing to me. As long as I have enough for what I need and little extra, I'm perfectly happy. When I look at American media and even the new batch of Disney cartoons, the hero's goal is always somehow money related, and I never understand that. Maybe it is things were different when I grew up, but the stories I learned, the heros I looked up to, worked to do what was right, for justice and eqaulity.

And when I'm talking about eqaulity I dont mean eqaulity in the communist tense, eqaulity as in each and every single person is entittled to the same things. So things like that safty and care I like so much, I may not dirrectly need or use, but other people do. That's not to say use my money to wipe asses, but to ensure a certain level in the qaulity of life. I'm not willing to sacrifice a good qaulity of life for all citizens in order to get less taxes.

It's called putting the needs of others above the wants of yourself.

[LostSoul3412]

=CNP= wrote: Have I ever been tight with money to the point where I needed every dime? No, but doenst mean I have no concecpt of life. I know how if feels to work hard, only to see a chuck of it disapear, it hurts.

But that money that is taken off may not directly be put in my hand, but I know I can walk down the street in safty, know that if I have kids they will have a good and fair education, and if I get hurt I'll be helped without question.

And to me, that's more then worth the money that is "stolen" off my paycheck.

Also, money isn't an immportant thing to me. As long as I have enough for what I need and little extra, I'm perfectly happy. When I look at American media and even the new batch of Disney cartoons, the hero's goal is always somehow money related, and I never understand that. Maybe it is things were different when I grew up, but the stories I learned, the heros I looked up to, worked to do what was right, for justice and eqaulity.

And when I'm talking about eqaulity I dont mean eqaulity in the communist tense, eqaulity as in each and every single person is entittled to the same things. So things like that safty and care I like so much, I may not dirrectly need or use, but other people do. That's not to say use my money to wipe asses, but to ensure a certain level in the qaulity of life. I'm not willing to sacrifice a good qaulity of life for all citizens in order to get less taxes.

It's called putting the needs of others above the wants of yourself.

I'm not talking about your personal wants, I'm talking about your personal needs. Things like, paying for a car so that you can drive to work to fund the car that you need to get there.

Things like, earning enough money so that you have an extra quarter in your budget so that you can have dinner tonight.

Things like, seeing your pantry get emptier and emptier, and know that you don't have the money to refill it.

Thing like, living off ramen noodles twice a day (brunch, and dinner), because it's the only thing you can afford.

I'm not talking about your personal luxuries. I'm talking about your basic necessities.

Knowing that another person has health care is irrelevant when you can't put food on the table.

[gavnook]

=CNP= wrote: gavnook wrote: =CNP= wrote: The services you get from the government are directly proportional to the ammount of taxes you pay.

Where do you get this idea?

Money doest flutter away and disapear. In a country of paper, you can fallow the paper and see where it leads.

Do that in Canada, other then foriegn aid money, the money ends up staying in Canada.

So the taxes I pay is building Canada, and supporting me and other Canadains.

While in America, if you fallow that trail of paper, you just find it ends up in the hands of corperations who do nothing in return, other then fund some certain political campains.

Because the American government misuess it's taxes, doenst mean taxes are bad.

You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box. Few things that my government pays for are things I would actually choose to fund, had I a choice. Much of what tax money gets spent on is wholly bad and we'd be better off if the money did just flutter away and disapear. When uncle sam takes my money, he uses it to build bombs and drop them on brown people halfway around the world, pissing off millions of arabs, putting my life in danger. He also pays people for having kids they can't afford, builds prisons and fills them with people who haven't hurt anyone, pays to keep foreign dictators in power, and all sorts other wonderful things. Go ahead and blame me for what my government does, but you should understand that I disagree with almost all of it. There's not a whole lot I can do. I can vote, but that will never accomplish anything.

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box. Few things that my government pays for are things I would actually choose to fund, had I a choice. Much of what tax money gets spent on is wholly bad and we'd be better off if the money did just flutter away and disapear. When uncle sam takes my money, he uses it to build bombs and drop them on brown people halfway around the world, pissing off millions of arabs, putting my life in danger. He also pays people for having kids they can't afford, builds prisons and fills them with people who haven't hurt anyone, pays to keep foreign dictators in power, and all sorts other wonderful things. Go ahead and blame me for what my government does, but you should understand that I disagree with almost all of it. There's not a whole lot I can do. I can vote, but that will never accomplish anything.

And since taxes are taken by force, that means the money is stolen, and anything that is acquired by force is illegitimate.

[Free Thinkr]

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box. Few things that my government pays for are things I would actually choose to fund, had I a choice. Much of what tax money gets spent on is wholly bad and we'd be better off if the money did just flutter away and disapear. When uncle sam takes my money, he uses it to build bombs and drop them on brown people halfway around the world, pissing off millions of arabs, putting my life in danger. He also pays people for having kids they can't afford, builds prisons and fills them with people who haven't hurt anyone, pays to keep foreign dictators in power, and all sorts other wonderful things. Go ahead and blame me for what my government does, but you should understand that I disagree with almost all of it. There's not a whole lot I can do. I can vote, but that will never accomplish anything.

And since taxes are taken by force, that means the money is stolen, and anything that is acquired by force is illegitimate.
Precisely. This is why the LVT is the only just tax. Not a tax on what you produce, but on what you deny others from using.

[Gus]

I prefer not to try to run other peoples' lives...but sometimes I can understand why someone would want to do that.

[Kindred]

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box. Few things that my government pays for are things I would actually choose to fund, had I a choice. Much of what tax money gets spent on is wholly bad and we'd be better off if the money did just flutter away and disapear. When uncle sam takes my money, he uses it to build bombs and drop them on brown people halfway around the world, pissing off millions of arabs, putting my life in danger. He also pays people for having kids they can't afford, builds prisons and fills them with people who haven't hurt anyone, pays to keep foreign dictators in power, and all sorts other wonderful things. Go ahead and blame me for what my government does, but you should understand that I disagree with almost all of it. There's not a whole lot I can do. I can vote, but that will never accomplish anything.

And since taxes are taken by force, that means the money is stolen, and anything that is acquired by force is illegitimate.

Including the land you live on?

[Kindred]

Free Thinkr wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box. Few things that my government pays for are things I would actually choose to fund, had I a choice. Much of what tax money gets spent on is wholly bad and we'd be better off if the money did just flutter away and disapear. When uncle sam takes my money, he uses it to build bombs and drop them on brown people halfway around the world, pissing off millions of arabs, putting my life in danger. He also pays people for having kids they can't afford, builds prisons and fills them with people who haven't hurt anyone, pays to keep foreign dictators in power, and all sorts other wonderful things. Go ahead and blame me for what my government does, but you should understand that I disagree with almost all of it. There's not a whole lot I can do. I can vote, but that will never accomplish anything.

And since taxes are taken by force, that means the money is stolen, and anything that is acquired by force is illegitimate.
Precisely. This is why the LVT is the only just tax. Not a tax on what you produce, but on what you deny others from using.
I agree, but also believe there should be taxes on industry and practices which produce cost born by third parties not partipating in the market transaction which produced them (i.e. 'externality-based taxes).

[=CNP=]

Quote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box.

-Deal with it.
-That's how every country works.
-Still dont like it, get out of the country, feel free to fend for yourself. Have fun makeing my shoes in some third world country when your made into a slave.

[Free Thinkr]

Kindred wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: gavnook wrote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box. Few things that my government pays for are things I would actually choose to fund, had I a choice. Much of what tax money gets spent on is wholly bad and we'd be better off if the money did just flutter away and disapear. When uncle sam takes my money, he uses it to build bombs and drop them on brown people halfway around the world, pissing off millions of arabs, putting my life in danger. He also pays people for having kids they can't afford, builds prisons and fills them with people who haven't hurt anyone, pays to keep foreign dictators in power, and all sorts other wonderful things. Go ahead and blame me for what my government does, but you should understand that I disagree with almost all of it. There's not a whole lot I can do. I can vote, but that will never accomplish anything.

And since taxes are taken by force, that means the money is stolen, and anything that is acquired by force is illegitimate.
Precisely. This is why the LVT is the only just tax. Not a tax on what you produce, but on what you deny others from using.
I agree, but also believe there should be taxes on industry and practices which produce cost born by third parties not partipating in the market transaction which produced them (i.e. 'externality-based taxes).
Fair enough, to the extent said taxes successfully compensate for those externalities.

[Free Thinkr]

=CNP= wrote: Quote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box.

-Deal with it.
-That's how every country works.
-Still dont like it, get out of the country, feel free to fend for yourself. Have fun makeing my shoes in some third world country when your made into a slave.
This is a weak 'argument,' IMO. This very argument could have come from a defender of any past injustice; that it is how every country works is irrelevent to ethical consideration.

[gavnook]

=CNP= wrote: Quote: You know what means taxes are bad? The fact that they are taken by force. If I don't pay the income tax demanded of me, the IRS will take my stuff and put me in a concrete and steel box.

-Deal with it.
-That's how every country works.
-Still dont like it, get out of the country, feel free to fend for yourself. Have fun makeing my shoes in some third world country when your made into a slave.

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. I will deal with what I wish to deal with. Here in this forum, it is normal for people to say what they find wrong with things as they are and to express how they think things should be. If you like things the way they are, either shut up and be happy about it or express why you feel that way. If everyone was content to just "deal with it", there'd be no point to PCF.

[=CNP=]

Quote: If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it.

Verbaly backing yourself into a corner with lines like that is just pathetic

When you present an idea, no matter the qaulity of it, exspect that people will challange it.

[ChuckBerry]

I think a national sales tax is most reasonable, with an exemption for food and primary residence, and maybe for utilities like electricity, gas, water, and phone. Taxing consumption rather than income seems to make most sense. It allows everyone to invest tax free as they see fit, and puts the hit on high dollar purchases more so than lower ones, and wealthy people certainly buy more non-essential stuff than tax exempted stuff like food and primary residence, thus making the tax progressive.