Political Crossfire Forums

[Roman]

To start this off I was raised in a hardcore Christian family who taught me things such as that were wrong and things like Astrology evil but after reading some parts of the BIble the other day I ran accross a verse that sounds like it implies reincarnation.

{20:4} And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for
the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with
Christ a thousand years. {20:5} But the rest of the dead
lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This
[is] the first resurrection.

Also, does Genesis confirm Astrology?

{1:14} And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament
of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them
be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

What do you think?

[cap'n queasy]

It says quite plainly "This is the first resurrection.

It does not say this is the first reincarnation.

And the mention of "signs" in Genesis 1:14 refers to signs for the times of ploughing, sowing, and reaping and various other seasonal tasks. Ancients kept track of the year by the position of the stars and this is what Genesis 1:14 refers to. Astrology is divination. Trying to foretell the future by the position of the stars. Not quite the same thing there.

Quote: Le 19:26 -
'You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying.

Hope that helps.

[Gilbert1908]

Roman wrote: To start this off I was raised in a hardcore Christian family who taught me things such as that were wrong and things like Astrology evil but after reading some parts of the BIble the other day I ran accross a verse that sounds like it implies reincarnation.

{20:4} And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for
the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with
Christ a thousand years. {20:5} But the rest of the dead
lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This
[is] the first resurrection.



Also, does Genesis confirm Astrology?

{1:14} And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament
of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them
be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

What do you think?

Reincarnation and astrology ?

"The answer to such people is that if they cannot understand books written for grownups, thy should not talk about them." C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity on facetious people.

[Roman]

Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

[dtwizzy2k5]

Roman wrote: Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

I dont think Gilbert was implying that you shuoldnt think freely and question things. I think he was implying that you dont understand the Bible, or at least the parts of it which are of concern in this thread.

[Gilbert1908]

Roman wrote: Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

One need not equate an "open mind" with an empty one.

Christianity is and has from its origin opposed in the mose direct and demonstrable terms both astrology and reincarnation.

To assert the contrary is simply ignorance or purposeful taunting for effect.

[wormwood]

Quote: I dont think Gilbert was implying that you shuoldnt think freely and question things. I think he was implying that you dont understand the Bible, or at least the parts of it which are of concern in this thread.
The original poster might have been onto a more profound insight then some of you realize. To some extent, in the bible, no direct negative, can indicate a positive. By that I mean people assume things are wrong, that may or may not be. For example, people lump all magical practices together as sorcery, or witchcraft, and say that it is all evil, when in fact some magical practices are accepted in the bible.

Occult techniques in the Hebrew Scriptures:

Quote: In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.
Numbers 5:12-31 describes a ritual of black magic that the Priest would perform on a woman if her husband suspected that she he had committed adultery. Verse 17 says: "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.." She and her husband would go, with an offering of barley meal, to the tabernacle. The priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.
The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.
Elisha was on his way to Bethel. Some small boys came out of the city and made fun of him because of his lack of hair; they called him "baldy". In a violent display of the power of black magic, Elisha cursed the children in the name of God. Two bears, apparently prompted by God, came out of the forest and tore 42 of the boys to shreds. The implication is that the children were all murdered. See 2 Kings 2:23-24.
Lots -- pieces of wood or stone with markings -- were used to determine the will of God. They were similar to dice. See: Numbers 26:55; Proverbs 16:33 Proverbs 18:18.
Daniel, the prophet, was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.


Occult techniques in the Christian Scriptures:

St. Paul engaged in evil sorcery as described in Acts 13:6-12. (Sorcery is here used in the same way as Exodus 22:18: a person saying magical words or performing magical rituals in order to harm or kill another person). During his journey to Cyprus, St. Paul met Bar-Jesus, who was an attendant of the Roman proconsul Sergius Paulus. He had a conflict with cursed Bar-Jesus, saying:
"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun. (NIV)

Bar-Jesus heard the curse and immediately was blinded.

St. Peter also engaged in evil sorcery, as described in Acts 5:9. After he determined that Sapphira had lied to him, he cursed her, saying
"How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. (ASV)

She collapsed and died immediately.

All I am saying is that things aren't always how they seem. I remember thinking about reincarnation and Christianity when someone told me they believed most people had not yet gone to heaven. Most people, he said, would not get to go to heaven until all of the dead are called back to life and judged at the end of time. This made me wonder what they would be doing until then. Perhaps they got a few more chances to get it right. Maybe the very few people who actually got it right left this plane, while the rest of us are here trying to beat the clock. None of this really conflicts with the message of the texts IMO.

[psholtz]

If the Bible confirms astrology, it would be viz the 12 Tribes of Israel (corresponding to the 12 signs in the zodiac), or the 12 Apostles surrounding the Sun-god of Jesus, etc.

[psholtz]

Best confirmation of "reincarnation" in the Bible is the combination of Malachi 4:5 and Matthew 11:14..

[Roman]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Roman wrote: Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

One need not equate an "open mind" with an empty one.

Christianity is and has from its origin opposed in the mose direct and demonstrable terms both astrology and reincarnation.

To assert the contrary is simply ignorance or purposeful taunting for effect.


Then why is Christianity divided amonget hundreds of sects?

It certainly isn't becuz they all believe the same.

[Gilbert1908]

Roman wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Roman wrote: Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

One need not equate an "open mind" with an empty one.

Christianity is and has from its origin opposed in the mose direct and demonstrable terms both astrology and reincarnation.

To assert the contrary is simply ignorance or purposeful taunting for effect.


Then why is Christianity divided amonget hundreds of sects?

It certainly isn't becuz they all believe the same.

One may argue that faith alone is necessary for salvation.

Another may say that a central authority is necessary to maintain scriptural integrity.

Yet another might insist clergy be free to marry.

All are debateable and reasonable.

How many have either astrology and reincarnation as central tenets?

[wormwood]

Quote: If the Bible confirms astrology, it would be viz the 12 Tribes of Israel (corresponding to the 12 signs in the zodiac), or the 12 Apostles surrounding the Sun-god of Jesus, etc. Or one could read the works of king Solomon. Also, this is an interesting interpretation because the number 12 has held a religious significance since the first recorded religion, in which there were 12 primary gods at any given time. Since Judaism is an offshoot of this Sumerian religion, it is no wonder that 12 retained it's importance, but I had not yet considered that it may be tied to astrology.

Also, could the first commandment be referring to astrology, when it says not to make images of anything in heaven? The bull, or Taurus, was one of the most popular animal representations for the chief of the gods.

[melchizedek22]

psholtz wrote: Best confirmation of "reincarnation" in the Bible is the combination of Malachi 4:5 and Matthew 11:14..

those were the very same verses I was going to post!

How will Elijah return?

[psholtz]

wormwood wrote: Quote: If the Bible confirms astrology, it would be viz the 12 Tribes of Israel (corresponding to the 12 signs in the zodiac), or the 12 Apostles surrounding the Sun-god of Jesus, etc. Or one could read the works of king Solomon. Also, this is an interesting interpretation because the number 12 has held a religious significance since the first recorded religion, in which there were 12 primary gods at any given time. Since Judaism is an offshoot of this Sumerian religion, it is no wonder that 12 retained it's importance, but I had not yet considered that it may be tied to astrology.

Also, could the first commandment be referring to astrology, when it says not to make images of anything in heaven? The bull, or Taurus, was one of the most popular animal representations for the chief of the gods.
Interesting..

I'm somewhat familiar w/ the stories of Solomon, and I'm somewhat familiar w/ him being a symbol for the "Sun", but I don't know too much more about astrological symoblism involving Solomon..

Is the number 12 key to some of the stories about Solomon?

[wormwood]

Quote: Interesting..

I'm somewhat familiar w/ the stories of Solomon, and I'm somewhat familiar w/ him being a symbol for the "Sun", but I don't know too much more about astrological symoblism involving Solomon..

Is the number 12 key to some of the stories about Solomon? Well, what I meant by checking the works of Solomon, is that he used a lot of astrology/astronomy to work his magic, which by the way he was quite famous for. For example, each day of the week has a planet associated with it. Sunday, is "controlled" by the Sun, which was considered it's planet of control. So at dawn on Sunday (the hour of the sun within the sun) any feat is possible within the realm of the sun's power. The Sun had characteristics attributed to it that constituted it's "realm of power". Each of the twelve zodiac signs is said to exert some kind of emotional influence on the earth. King Solomon was an accepted figure in ancient Jewish society, that practiced magic and astrology, lending at least some credence to the original topic.

[psholtz]

wormwood wrote: For example, each day of the week has a planet associated with it. Sunday, is "controlled" by the Sun, which was considered it's planet of control. So at dawn on Sunday (the hour of the sun within the sun) any feat is possible within the realm of the sun's power.
This is true in the Latin languages (that each day is associated w/ a planet), and its something the ancient alchemists recognized as well.

I didn't realize that the Hebrews associated each day w/ a planet as well.

[thebreadloaf2003]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Roman wrote: Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

One need not equate an "open mind" with an empty one.

Christianity is and has from its origin opposed in the mose direct and demonstrable terms both astrology and reincarnation.

To assert the contrary is simply ignorance or purposeful taunting for effect.

being open minded and empty minded are two competely opposite things. being open minded is being accepting or tolerant of others' beliefs, practices, ect. and leaving room for reason and plausability for their beleifs, ect. being empty minded is complete ignorance

and christianity has opposed astrology and reincarnation because in the dark ages, before that and even slightly after that, many people were too poor to afford any book, even the bible...and even if they could afford the book, most of them were illiterate anyway. the only way for those people to learn about chritianity was through the priests and clergy and all the religious figures who HAD the bible and COULD read. therefore they all gave THEIR remdition and view of the bible that had been passed down to them form their master or mentor, whatever you want to call it.

and yes, asserting the contrary is often used as taunting and is also often used ignorantly by those too blind to se their own ignorance. But to deny the words of a person who has the intelligence to carry on am argument of this topic and still keep intelligence in the words, then ignorance has no presence,
accept maybe your own.

[Gilbert1908]

thebreadloaf2003 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Roman wrote: Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

One need not equate an "open mind" with an empty one.

Christianity is and has from its origin opposed in the mose direct and demonstrable terms both astrology and reincarnation.

To assert the contrary is simply ignorance or purposeful taunting for effect.

being open minded and empty minded are two competely opposite things. being open minded is being accepting or tolerant of others' beliefs, practices, ect. and leaving room for reason and plausability for their beleifs, ect. being empty minded is complete ignorance

and christianity has opposed astrology and reincarnation because in the dark ages, before that and even slightly after that, many people were too poor to afford any book, even the bible...and even if they could afford the book, most of them were illiterate anyway. the only way for those people to learn about chritianity was through the priests and clergy and all the religious figures who HAD the bible and COULD read. therefore they all gave THEIR remdition and view of the bible that had been passed down to them form their master or mentor, whatever you want to call it.

and yes, asserting the contrary is often used as taunting and is also often used ignorantly by those too blind to se their own ignorance. But to deny the words of a person who has the intelligence to carry on am argument of this topic and still keep intelligence in the words, then ignorance has no presence,
accept maybe your own.

Christianity has opposed astrology and reincarnation from the days of Christ, the idea within the context of elemental Christianity from day one that either the stars influence or portend an individual's future or that the human soul is recycled, is not a matter of opinion or open mindedness.

It does not stop anyone who would like, to find all kinds of meanings within the Bible nor for them to espouse that belief, it just means that they do not fall into the Christian faith in doing so.

[thebreadloaf2003]

Gilbert1908 wrote: thebreadloaf2003 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Roman wrote: Please tell me oh Gilbert, what is wrong with keeping an open mind and looking at things in a different way from what your parents, church,or government taught you?

Here's a quote for you as well:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality.

To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

One need not equate an "open mind" with an empty one.

Christianity is and has from its origin opposed in the mose direct and demonstrable terms both astrology and reincarnation.

To assert the contrary is simply ignorance or purposeful taunting for effect.

being open minded and empty minded are two competely opposite things. being open minded is being accepting or tolerant of others' beliefs, practices, ect. and leaving room for reason and plausability for their beleifs, ect. being empty minded is complete ignorance

and christianity has opposed astrology and reincarnation because in the dark ages, before that and even slightly after that, many people were too poor to afford any book, even the bible...and even if they could afford the book, most of them were illiterate anyway. the only way for those people to learn about chritianity was through the priests and clergy and all the religious figures who HAD the bible and COULD read. therefore they all gave THEIR remdition and view of the bible that had been passed down to them form their master or mentor, whatever you want to call it.

and yes, asserting the contrary is often used as taunting and is also often used ignorantly by those too blind to se their own ignorance. But to deny the words of a person who has the intelligence to carry on am argument of this topic and still keep intelligence in the words, then ignorance has no presence,
accept maybe your own.

Christianity has opposed astrology and reincarnation from the days of Christ, the idea within the context of elemental Christianity from day one that either the stars influence or portend an individual's future or that the human soul is recycled, is not a matter of opinion or open mindedness.

It does not stop anyone who would like, to find all kinds of meanings within the Bible nor for them to espouse that belief, it just means that they do not fall into the Christian faith in doing so.

and how do you know that christ has opposed it. from a book that has been rewritten hundreds of times and told by people who summerize and explain the book for you at mass and when called upon to do so wich have learned form their masters and so on and so forth. unless you were actualy there and actualy heard christ say "astrology and reincarnation are the essence of all that are untrue and unholy.

ill go ahead and use a repitious example of the childs game telephone. a phrase is told and passed secretly aorund a circle. eventualy it will end up at the starter and most likey be scewed form the original

and it is true about not falling into the "stereotypical" christian faith. but if you are not of the christian faith or any faith at all, then it takes an open mind to accept or even tolerate the beliefs of christians. one of a closed mind will take none of the beliefs or thoughts of the faith seriously or tolerate them the slightest bit if they are not part of their own thoughts and beliefs.

openmindedness leads to acceptane and tolerance
closedmindedness leads to stuborn thoughts
emptymindedness leads to a dorne life of following and obeying every command with no acception

[Gilbert1908]

thebreadloaf2003 wrote:

and how do you know that christ has opposed it. from a book that has been rewritten hundreds of times and told by people who summerize and explain the book for you at mass and when called upon to do so wich have learned form their masters and so on and so forth. unless you were actualy there and actualy heard christ say "astrology and reincarnation are the essence of all that are untrue and unholy.

ill go ahead and use a repitious example of the childs game telephone. a phrase is told and passed secretly aorund a circle. eventualy it will end up at the starter and most likey be scewed form the original

and it is true about not falling into the "stereotypical" christian faith. but if you are not of the christian faith or any faith at all, then it takes an open mind to accept or even tolerate the beliefs of christians. one of a closed mind will take none of the beliefs or thoughts of the faith seriously or tolerate them the slightest bit if they are not part of their own thoughts and beliefs.

openmindedness leads to acceptane and tolerance
closedmindedness leads to stuborn thoughts
emptymindedness leads to a dorne life of following and obeying every command with no acception

If you deny the legitimacy of Christianity to define Christianity, then there is no answer which will make sense to you, nor is there anyway for any thing to ever make sense since NOTHING can be defined beyond your limitations.

So then why argue the point in the Christian thread where clearly things are discussed within the context of Christianity. Is your expectation that because you roll out the same hackneyed claims that "the Bible is corrupt, the Church is corrupt, everyone but who I believe is corrupt" therefore what I believe is right simply because I believe it, is somehow convincing?

And who is being closed minded and dogmatic?

I can certainly understand that you are skeptical about Christianity, I viewed itthe same way for most of my adult life. What I don't understand and didn't even when I agreed with that skepticism, is why someone like you is so angry about other people's beliefs?

Believe what ever you like, but don't tell me why I believe what I do unless you know why and how I came to believe it.

You can believe Jesus rode in space ships or was actually a Norwegian clam diver, just don't assert that that is, or should be the Christian belief, simply because you imagine a clam reference in some Bible passage or an article is written somewhere about the Norwegian Christ.

Again an open mind does not mean acceptance of everything that is said or written regardless of how silly and inane it might be, or how irrelevant it is to a specific philosphy.

.