Political Crossfire Forums

[LetsGetReal]

I'd tell you perdidochas but after thinking about it, it makes me sound like I'm trying to say your wrong and not as faithful as you could be. So I'll just refrain from saying it, sorry.

[Gilbert1908]

LetsGetReal wrote: Wasn't the point I was trying to make Gilbert. I was trying to state that the assumption of you stating you believe in another God to save your family, most likely wouldn't result in their lives being saved. Not that words=faith and I would hope after the long relationship you and I have had through PCF you wouldn't have assumed that I was saying such a thing.

You are correct glad we could clarify things.

[Enoch]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.


So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here. Yes, in this instance, lying would be okay. If saying I was converting to Islam would save my life, I would say it. But, that doesn't mean my heart and soul would change. I would still be Wiccan despite what I verbalize.

Now, you say "we would lose our life if we denied." What does that mean?

[cap'n queasy]

Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.


So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here. Yes, in this instance, lying would be okay. If saying I was converting to Islam would save my life, I would say it. But, that doesn't mean my heart and soul would change. I would still be Wiccan despite what I verbalize.

Now, you say "we would lose our life if we denied." What does that mean?
Quote: Matthew 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. 37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.



Actually, you should read the entire section, if you are interested.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+10:33&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

[eynon]

Shady wrote: wannabe wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: I'd rather die...

Agreed. To lose faith is to lose a part of life.

Shady wrote: But would you sacrifice your family? Your friends? Do you have the right to determine their fates?

This, however, would be the exception. I would sacrifice my life for those I love.

yes, but would you sacrifice your faith?

how can you? :-|

For the life of your family?

just because I throw some incense on the alter of Ceaser to save my family from execution does not mean I've sacrificed my faith.......no-one can make you do that.

[Enoch]

cap'n queasy wrote: Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.


So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here. Yes, in this instance, lying would be okay. If saying I was converting to Islam would save my life, I would say it. But, that doesn't mean my heart and soul would change. I would still be Wiccan despite what I verbalize.

Now, you say "we would lose our life if we denied." What does that mean?
Quote: Matthew 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. 37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.



Actually, you should read the entire section, if you are interested.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+10:33&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en Thank you for clarifying that.

[perdidochas]

Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.


So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here. Yes, in this instance, lying would be okay. If saying I was converting to Islam would save my life, I would say it. But, that doesn't mean my heart and soul would change. I would still be Wiccan despite what I verbalize.

Now, you say "we would lose our life if we denied." What does that mean?

Well, I'm generally in agreement with you on this issue.

[perdidochas]

cap'n queasy wrote: Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.


So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here. Yes, in this instance, lying would be okay. If saying I was converting to Islam would save my life, I would say it. But, that doesn't mean my heart and soul would change. I would still be Wiccan despite what I verbalize.

Now, you say "we would lose our life if we denied." What does that mean?
Quote: Matthew 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. 37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.



Actually, you should read the entire section, if you are interested.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+10:33&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

However, God forgives. Peter denied Jesus, three times. Yet, he was still leader of the Apostles.

[Eternal]

I don't know which aspect of this discussion makes me more saddened; the fact that in this day and age there are still those who threaten to kill others unless they convert to their religion, or that some are wondering whether their god would show mercy to those who choose life instead of death.

Very sobering.


Cheers, Eternal

[Gilbert1908]

Eternal wrote: I don't know which aspect of this discussion makes me more saddened; the fact that in this day and age there are still those who threaten to kill others unless they convert to their religion, or that some are wondering whether their god would show mercy to those who choose life instead of death.

Very sobering.


Cheers, Eternal

I think that the line is very thin between those who value their faith SO MUCH they would die for it and those who value it so much they would kill for it and then those who are willing to do both at the same time. But such lines are the sole responsibility of MAN, not God.

Self sacrifice in the name of God (or any other principle) is one thing. I see it as no different than anyone willing to sacrifice their life for a cause, a friend or a family member. But once we move into knowingly deciding the deaths of others, we move into a very difficult area indeed.

The person who murders innocents or knowingly causes the murder of innocents most likely will have an issue with God, while generally the person whose decision (if done in true and genuine sacrifice) only affects himself likely may not.

So I share you concern about ANYONE who might consider death as a necessary option under nearly any circumstances since the extreme it represents is NOT representative of Christianity. Christianity is about balance NOT extremes. In this case the balance is that it is very possible a man who opts to pretend he has converted to another religion to save his own life or the life of his family OR a man who openly refuses to convert from his faith and is killed for refusing may have both done the right thing.

Christian sin can only be determined with certainty by God and only by knowing what is the true intent within the mind of the sinner.

[mathurin]

too many people are jumping to too many conclusions


as far as i know they did not deny christ or god or being a christian, however they were forced to "adopt" islam, assuming they did not specifically request the denial of your religion is there any wiggle room with reading the koran aloud and such

similarly, when someone demands that you pray in a mosque, however is not specific as to whom you pray too (though im not sure if how they pray makes it specific) and does not demand that you renounce whatever your religion is

[cap'n queasy]

perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.


So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here. Yes, in this instance, lying would be okay. If saying I was converting to Islam would save my life, I would say it. But, that doesn't mean my heart and soul would change. I would still be Wiccan despite what I verbalize.

Now, you say "we would lose our life if we denied." What does that mean?
Quote: Matthew 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. 37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.



Actually, you should read the entire section, if you are interested.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+10:33&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

However, God forgives. Peter denied Jesus, three times. Yet, he was still leader of the Apostles.

How did Peter die?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: as far as i know they did not deny christ or god or being a christian, however they were forced to "adopt" islam

One cannot adopt Islam and not deny Christ.

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: as far as i know they did not deny christ or god or being a christian, however they were forced to "adopt" islam

One cannot adopt Islam and not deny Christ.

That's right.

[Eternal]

Gilbert1908 wrote: I think that the line is very thin between those who value their faith SO MUCH they would die for it and those who value it so much they would kill for it and then those who are willing to do both at the same time. But such lines are the sole responsibility of MAN, not God.

Self sacrifice in the name of God (or any other principle) is one thing. I see it as no different than anyone willing to sacrifice their life for a cause, a friend or a family member. But once we move into knowingly deciding the deaths of others, we move into a very difficult area indeed.

The person who murders innocents or knowingly causes the murder of innocents most likely will have an issue with God, while generally the person whose decision (if done in true and genuine sacrifice) only affects himself likely may not.

So I share you concern about ANYONE who might consider death as a necessary option under nearly any circumstances since the extreme it represents is NOT representative of Christianity. Christianity is about balance NOT extremes. In this case the balance is that it is very possible a man who opts to pretend he has converted to another religion to save his own life or the life of his family OR a man who openly refuses to convert from his faith and is killed for refusing may have both done the right thing.

Christian sin can only be determined with certainty by God and only by knowing what is the true intent within the mind of the sinner.

I agree with most of what you said, particularly the part I bolded. I would also contend that it is not just religion where fanaticism can occur, just look at organisations such PETA and ALF (Animal Liberation Front). However I cannot help but think that this whole notion of going to hell for eternity if you go against God does not somehow contribute to this insanity.

As such I disagree with your premise that the idea of God holds no responsibility. From the believers point of view they wouldn't be in this mess if they didn't believe in God (although I admit it's quite possible that they would be in another equally disturbing mess).


Cheers, Eternal

[Gilbert1908]

Eternal wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: I think that the line is very thin between those who value their faith SO MUCH they would die for it and those who value it so much they would kill for it and then those who are willing to do both at the same time. But such lines are the sole responsibility of MAN, not God.

Self sacrifice in the name of God (or any other principle) is one thing. I see it as no different than anyone willing to sacrifice their life for a cause, a friend or a family member. But once we move into knowingly deciding the deaths of others, we move into a very difficult area indeed.

The person who murders innocents or knowingly causes the murder of innocents most likely will have an issue with God, while generally the person whose decision (if done in true and genuine sacrifice) only affects himself likely may not.

So I share you concern about ANYONE who might consider death as a necessary option under nearly any circumstances since the extreme it represents is NOT representative of Christianity. Christianity is about balance NOT extremes. In this case the balance is that it is very possible a man who opts to pretend he has converted to another religion to save his own life or the life of his family OR a man who openly refuses to convert from his faith and is killed for refusing may have both done the right thing.

Christian sin can only be determined with certainty by God and only by knowing what is the true intent within the mind of the sinner.

I agree with most of what you said, particularly the part I bolded. I would also contend that it is not just religion where fanaticism can occur, just look at organisations such PETA and ALF (Animal Liberation Front). However I cannot help but think that this whole notion of going to hell for eternity if you go against God does not somehow contribute to this insanity.

As such I disagree with your premise that the idea of God holds no responsibility. From the believers point of view they wouldn't be in this mess if they didn't believe in God (although I admit it's quite possible that they would be in another equally disturbing mess).


Cheers, Eternal

You believe that if I knowingly murder, injure, cheat, or consider doing any of those things to my fellow man, that I have sinned and it is only by denying I will ever cause any violence and live a peaceful life of service to God that I will be assured of NOT being punished, that CAUSES people to be violent???? How does that make any sense. The fact there are violent people in the world is indesputable. The fact that some of them do so in the name of religion is also indeputable, but the action of an individual or even a radical group does not alter the truth, that violent, obsessed fanatics TAKE ON religion as an EXCUSE to maintian their obsessions and justify their fantacism TO THEMSELVES and other for it can not be justified logically, scripturally or theologicially.

[Shady]

wannabe wrote: Shady wrote: wannabe wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: I'd rather die...

Agreed. To lose faith is to lose a part of life.

Shady wrote: But would you sacrifice your family? Your friends? Do you have the right to determine their fates?

This, however, would be the exception. I would sacrifice my life for those I love.

yes, but would you sacrifice your faith?

how can you? :-|

For the life of your family?

just because I throw some incense on the alter of Ceaser to save my family from execution does not mean I've sacrificed my faith.......no-one can make you do that.

I see your point, but that's not really the question here. Would you pretend to follow another religion to save your family and friends?

[connermt]

mathurin wrote: i was thinking specifically about some news guys who were kidnapped and forced to convert to islam, i dont know the details, but, so long as one is not required to expressly renounce christianity, is it "kosher" (wrong word i know) to read up on and go through the motions of adopting islam to keep a knife away from your neck


a similar situation was very vaguely reported, where someone was forced to pray or die in an islamic country, since this action did not mean renouncing christ, or indeed even praying to allah, as who knows whom you are praying too in your mind



i am just wondering how much wiggle room there is for the traveler who doesnt wish to die. not that i intend to go to that region myself
I would guess it would depend on the convistions and faith of the person in question. Right or wrong by popular opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this situation - its up to the individual

[Eternal]

Gilbert1908 wrote: You believe that if I knowingly murder, injure, cheat, or consider doing any of those things to my fellow man, that I have sinned and it is only by denying I will ever cause any violence and live a peaceful life of service to God that I will be assured of NOT being punished, that CAUSES people to be violent???? How does that make any sense. The fact there are violent people in the world is indesputable. The fact that some of them do so in the name of religion is also indeputable, but the action of an individual or even a radical group does not alter the truth, that violent, obsessed fanatics TAKE ON religion as an EXCUSE to maintian their obsessions and justify their fantacism TO THEMSELVES and other for it can not be justified logically, scripturally or theologicially.

The problem occurs when one feels they must kill in order NOT to go to hell. As evidenced by some of the posts in this thread, the question as to whether one can lie about their faith in the hope of saving their own life and the lives of those that they love, is not easy to answer if one reads the scripture.

According to Cap'n if a Christian denies there faith in Christ, regardless of the circumstances, they will be punished. On the other hand you offer a more reasoned position which is dependant on the circumstances. Both positions however are about preventing oneself from going to hell.

If a Christian man whose family is captured by terrorists is told that his families life will be spared if he converts to their religion, how is he to respond? According to Cap'n he should say no and let his family die. If he listens to you he might be able to say yes but whether he's made the right decision he won't know until he's dead and being judged by God.

The issue I have is that driving this man's decision is not fear of seeing his family hurt, but his own fear of going to hell. It's being based on the needs of his own salvation, something Christianity demands; where is the humanity in that?

Given this scenario perhaps it's better for him to be cautious and just follows Cap'n's advice and let his family die. Too bad though if no one in his family supports his religious views.


Cheers, Eternal

[Gilbert1908]

Eternal wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: You believe that if I knowingly murder, injure, cheat, or consider doing any of those things to my fellow man, that I have sinned and it is only by denying I will ever cause any violence and live a peaceful life of service to God that I will be assured of NOT being punished, that CAUSES people to be violent???? How does that make any sense. The fact there are violent people in the world is indesputable. The fact that some of them do so in the name of religion is also indeputable, but the action of an individual or even a radical group does not alter the truth, that violent, obsessed fanatics TAKE ON religion as an EXCUSE to maintian their obsessions and justify their fantacism TO THEMSELVES and other for it can not be justified logically, scripturally or theologicially.

The problem occurs when one feels they must kill in order NOT to go to hell. As evidenced by some of the posts in this thread, the question as to whether one can lie about their faith in the hope of saving their own life and the lives of those that they love, is not easy to answer if one reads the scripture.

According to Cap'n if a Christian denies there faith in Christ, regardless of the circumstances, they will be punished. On the other hand you offer a more reasoned position which is dependant on the circumstances. Both positions however are about preventing oneself from going to hell.

If a Christian man whose family is captured by terrorists is told that his families life will be spared if he converts to their religion, how is he to respond? According to Cap'n he should say no and let his family die. If he listens to you he might be able to say yes but whether he's made the right decision he won't know until he's dead and being judged by God.

The issue I have is that driving this man's decision is not fear of seeing his family hurt, but his own fear of going to hell. It's being based on the needs of his own salvation, something Christianity demands; where is the humanity in that?

Given this scenario perhaps it's better for him to be cautious and just follows Cap'n's advice and let his family die. Too bad though if no one in his family supports his religious views.


Cheers, Eternal

My offering is not dependent on circumstances, but truth, there is fine but important difference.

I am saying two things, one the Capn can not disagree with one he may.

Only God can determine sin and punishment and sin is based upon intent. If mere words and even actions are meaningless in your salvation I fail to see how they could apply to your damnation. And I think you will find that the Capn would probably agree. Faith is NOT about words or actions it is about faith and one neither creates or denies the truth of faith with words.