Political Crossfire Forums

eynon · Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:54 am Post subject:

Babylon_Horuv wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: I'd rather die...

Agreed. To lose faith is to lose a part of life.

Shady wrote: But would you sacrifice your family? Your friends? Do you have the right to determine their fates?

This, however, would be the exception. I would sacrifice my life for those I love.

yes, but would you sacrifice your faith?

how can you? :-|

Shady · Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 7413 Location: VA

LetsGetReal wrote: Shady wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Shady wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: I'd rather die...

But would you sacrfice your family? Your friends? Do you have the right to determine their fates? I live in the real world, not the imaginary sorry.

So you answered one hypothetical....but not the other? No, your question poses the responsibility on the person who decides whether to profess another faith and not the people who are doing the killing. This is a common tactic of the left, to accuse the people who are doing the right as partly wrong. And that is an imaginary world, a world created by the sympathizers of the wrong doers to show that its not all their fault. Thats why I won't answer it. :wink:

The question is simply a hypothetical. I care very little for the aspect of the terrorists behind it...it can be whoever you want. It can be radical Mormons, I don't care, my point is would you pretend to adopt another faith to save the ones you love? Furthermore I am not a member of the "left" and I have no idea how you could have extracted that from my post. And finally of COURSE it's an imaginary world...it's a HYPOTHETICAL.

Shady · Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 7413 Location: VA

wannabe wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: I'd rather die...

Agreed. To lose faith is to lose a part of life.

Shady wrote: But would you sacrifice your family? Your friends? Do you have the right to determine their fates?

This, however, would be the exception. I would sacrifice my life for those I love.

yes, but would you sacrifice your faith?

how can you? :-|

For the life of your family?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

On the other hand, we know that God will forgive us for doing this. Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he was the foundation of the Church.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Enoch wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: mathurin wrote: i was thinking specifically about some news guys who were kidnapped and forced to convert to islam, i dont know the details, but, so long as one is not required to expressly renounce christianity, is it "kosher" (wrong word i know) to read up on and go through the motions of adopting islam to keep a knife away from your neck

a similar situation was very vaguely reported, where someone was forced to pray or die in an islamic country, since this action did not mean renouncing christ, or indeed even praying to allah, as who knows whom you are praying too in your mind

i am just wondering how much wiggle room there is for the traveler who doesnt wish to die. not that i intend to go to that region myself

If that was happening all over the world it would be the tribulation.
I wouldn't deny Christ. mathurin raises an interesting point. I, too, had considered what the expressed conversion truly meant.

While not a Christian, and thus with a different set of spiritual beliefs, I find this to be a bizarre thing for the extremists to want. I could claim to be Muslim, but it would not be true. I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So, does Christianity teach that words equal intent? Not trying to argue anything here, just curious. If a Christian claims to convert, but his or her heart is still Christian, does that make a difference? A girl in the columbine shooting was asked if she believed in god with a gun to her head. She said yes and the killer stated, "well i'll send you to meet him."(or something like that) I'd take that is a great way to profess ones faith.

While initial rumors did claim that teenager Cassie Bernall was shot after professing faith in God, she did not say this. The official investigation attributes the quote to another student, a survivor of the shootings. Eyewitness accounts say that this exchange did not take place.

Just another example that in the minds of many people, myth is often stronger than reality. proof or link to such an assertation?

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Shady wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Shady wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Shady wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: I'd rather die...

But would you sacrfice your family? Your friends? Do you have the right to determine their fates? I live in the real world, not the imaginary sorry.

So you answered one hypothetical....but not the other? No, your question poses the responsibility on the person who decides whether to profess another faith and not the people who are doing the killing. This is a common tactic of the left, to accuse the people who are doing the right as partly wrong. And that is an imaginary world, a world created by the sympathizers of the wrong doers to show that its not all their fault. Thats why I won't answer it. :wink:

The question is simply a hypothetical. I care very little for the aspect of the terrorists behind it...it can be whoever you want. It can be radical Mormons, I don't care, my point is would you pretend to adopt another faith to save the ones you love? Furthermore I am not a member of the "left" and I have no idea how you could have extracted that from my post. And finally of COURSE it's an imaginary world...it's a HYPOTHETICAL. Yes but in your hypothetical your blaming me for the deaths of my family for not "pretending" to be of another faith, not the ones who actually kill "my family". See your didn't even see my point :wink:.

I said the tactic is used by the left, not that you are from the left. :roll: You need to brush up on your reading comprehension before you make a reply.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

On the other hand, we know that God will forgive us for doing this. Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he was the foundation of the Church.

That's true.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

On the other hand, we know that God will forgive us for doing this. Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he was the foundation of the Church. So you should lie just because you will be forgiven? :?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5211 Location: Boston, MA

mathurin wrote: i was thinking specifically about some news guys who were kidnapped and forced to convert to islam, i dont know the details, but, so long as one is not required to expressly renounce christianity, is it "kosher" (wrong word i know) to read up on and go through the motions of adopting islam to keep a knife away from your neck

a similar situation was very vaguely reported, where someone was forced to pray or die in an islamic country, since this action did not mean renouncing christ, or indeed even praying to allah, as who knows whom you are praying too in your mind

i am just wondering how much wiggle room there is for the traveler who doesnt wish to die. not that i intend to go to that region myself

I think this was answered 500 years ago in a very simple sentence from Aquinas.

"A man is not called upon to witness except as a man, wherefore without wronging his conscience he can swear that he knows not, what he knows only as God knows it." Summa Theologica

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Gilbert1908 wrote: mathurin wrote: i was thinking specifically about some news guys who were kidnapped and forced to convert to islam, i dont know the details, but, so long as one is not required to expressly renounce christianity, is it "kosher" (wrong word i know) to read up on and go through the motions of adopting islam to keep a knife away from your neck

a similar situation was very vaguely reported, where someone was forced to pray or die in an islamic country, since this action did not mean renouncing christ, or indeed even praying to allah, as who knows whom you are praying too in your mind

i am just wondering how much wiggle room there is for the traveler who doesnt wish to die. not that i intend to go to that region myself

I think this was answered 500 years ago in a very simple sentence from Aquinas.

"A man is not called upon to witness except as a man, wherefore without wronging his conscience he can swear that he knows not, what he knows only as God knows it." Summa Theologica I think this deals with the limited knowledge that we can know compared to god. Too me I take it as a man saying that he truly doesn't know what he knows as truth and only God does. :?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5211 Location: Boston, MA

LetsGetReal wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: mathurin wrote: i was thinking specifically about some news guys who were kidnapped and forced to convert to islam, i dont know the details, but, so long as one is not required to expressly renounce christianity, is it "kosher" (wrong word i know) to read up on and go through the motions of adopting islam to keep a knife away from your neck

a similar situation was very vaguely reported, where someone was forced to pray or die in an islamic country, since this action did not mean renouncing christ, or indeed even praying to allah, as who knows whom you are praying too in your mind

i am just wondering how much wiggle room there is for the traveler who doesnt wish to die. not that i intend to go to that region myself

I think this was answered 500 years ago in a very simple sentence from Aquinas.

"A man is not called upon to witness except as a man, wherefore without wronging his conscience he can swear that he knows not, what he knows only as God knows it." Summa Theologica I think this deals with the limited knowledge that we can know compared to god. Too me I take it as a man saying that he truly doesn't know what he knows as truth and only God does. :?

Actually it is not that, but in response to the issue of professing the knowledge or witness of information, in this case SIN.

"Objection 3. Further, a man is bound to safeguard his conscience rather than the good name of another, because there is order in charity. Now it happens sometimes that a man by hiding a sin injures his own conscience--" This is the statement or objection to which you have Aquinas' paartial answer above

Clearly then the opposite would also be true, he can swear he knows what he knows that ONLY God knows NOT to be true.

Christian sin is based on truth and intent. One does not sin in a lie like this anymore than one is guilty of MURDER when the act is done in defense of his life or the life of another.

A raped woman is not guilty of adultery or fornication.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

But Gilbert would cast the blame of death on the person who refused to profess another faith or the ones who committed the act of murder?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5211 Location: Boston, MA

LetsGetReal wrote: But Gilbert would cast the blame of death on the person who refused to profess another faith or the ones who committed the act of murder?

My point is that ANYONE who would place another person in the position of convert or die is clearly at fault, and that there is virtually NO issue with what ever that victim chooses to do to as a result whether is to save his own life or the lives of others or defy the evil ones.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

LetsGetReal wrote: perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

On the other hand, we know that God will forgive us for doing this. Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he was the foundation of the Church. So you should lie just because you will be forgiven? :?

No, but I would rather lie to save my wife and kids, than to not lie and let them die. I know that's probably not the ideal, but, from my understanding, it would not be a mortal sin.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act.

If I gave up my religion verbally, in order to save my wife and kids, IMHO, this is not a voluntary act. I trust in God's mercy.

Eugene_C · Joined: 11 Sep 2006 Posts: 25

Acting!!....GENIOUS!!!

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

perdidochas wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

On the other hand, we know that God will forgive us for doing this. Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he was the foundation of the Church. So you should lie just because you will be forgiven? :?

No, but I would rather lie to save my wife and kids, than to not lie and let them die. I know that's probably not the ideal, but, from my understanding, it would not be a mortal sin.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act.
If I gave up my religion verbally, in order to save my wife and kids, IMHO, this is not a voluntary act. I trust in God's mercy. Another hypothetical, What would you think if they still killed them even though you confessed your faith for another religion?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5211 Location: Boston, MA

LetsGetReal wrote: perdidochas wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

On the other hand, we know that God will forgive us for doing this. Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he was the foundation of the Church. So you should lie just because you will be forgiven? :?

No, but I would rather lie to save my wife and kids, than to not lie and let them die. I know that's probably not the ideal, but, from my understanding, it would not be a mortal sin.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act.
If I gave up my religion verbally, in order to save my wife and kids, IMHO, this is not a voluntary act. I trust in God's mercy. Another hypothetical, What would you think if they still killed them even though you confessed your faith for another religion?

Faith is not about what one says or even does.

I have know many people who call themelves Christians and say and do ALL of the RIGHT things but have not a single clue about Christianity.

Who is more sinful? The man who will do and say ANYTHING out of love for his wife and family or the man who says and does ANYTHING due to self promotion? It is what is TRUE(veritas) that matters not what appears to be true.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Wasn't the point I was trying to make Gilbert. I was trying to state that the assumption of you stating you believe in another God to save your family, most likely wouldn't result in their lives being saved. Not that words=faith and I would hope after the long relationship you and I have had through PCF you wouldn't have assumed that I was saying such a thing.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

LetsGetReal wrote: perdidochas wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am Wiccan, and nothing will change that. If a gun was held to my head or to the head of my loved ones, sure I would probably claim that I am converting. But, that would purely be words and not what my heart said.

So basically, to your way of thinking, lying in this instance is ok. I'm not making a value judgment here because I can't really legitimately ask somebody to die for something that is not as important as their life but I would like to point out why that the Christian ethos is different.

To us we would lose our life, if we denied. And if this situation was happening in the US it would be seen as powerful evidence that the time spoken of in the scripture was, in fact, here.

On the other hand, we know that God will forgive us for doing this. Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he was the foundation of the Church. So you should lie just because you will be forgiven? :?

No, but I would rather lie to save my wife and kids, than to not lie and let them die. I know that's probably not the ideal, but, from my understanding, it would not be a mortal sin.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act.
If I gave up my religion verbally, in order to save my wife and kids, IMHO, this is not a voluntary act. I trust in God's mercy. Another hypothetical, What would you think if they still killed them even though you confessed your faith for another religion?

What do you mean? Regardless, I'd be mad as hell at the captors. It would be that much worse if they killed my family. I don't see how that changes things.