Political Crossfire Forums

[melchizedek22]

Revelation 17 vs 18 And the Women which thou sawest is the great city,which reigneth over the kings of the Earth

This tells that the women (The w**** of Babylon) is a city

Revelation 17 vs 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are the seven mountains,on which the woman sitteth.

This tells that at the time of the writing ,the women (city) is Rome!

This next verse is so overlooked but is one of the keys to understanding Revelations and America in the Bible!

Revelation 17 vs 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness:
and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,full of names of blasphemy,having seven heads and ten horns.

here we see that the women who had been in Rome has moved to the WILDERNESS and is sitting on the beast,the last kingdom in Danials dream,at the time of this writing, America was the wilderness, the Beast is the USA,and the Women is the city of New York :!:

Rev 18vs 11 And the Merchants of the Earth weep and mourn for her

here we see after the City is destroyed,who is upset Merchants(Capitalist)

[Todd D.]

Right. Despite the fact that the author had no clue that there even was an England, let alone an America, he completely predicts it's downfall?

People see in Revelation what they want to see, everything from Hitler, the Pope, Muslims, Nuclear War, and Germany, all the while ignoring the more direct, obvious interpretation. It's almost as if they take a Gnostic approach of "No, that's too simple, it can't possibly be that".

Here's what I think is a good interpretation of the text in question

[melchizedek22]

Todd D. wrote: Right. Despite the fact that the author had no clue that there even was an England, let alone an America, he completely predicts it's downfall?

People see in Revelation what they want to see, everything from Hitler, the Pope, Muslims, Nuclear War, and Germany, all the while ignoring the more direct, obvious interpretation. It's almost as if they take a Gnostic approach of "No, that's too simple, it can't possibly be that".

Here's what I think is a good interpretation of the text in question

vague

[cap'n queasy]

Todd D. wrote: Right. Despite the fact that the author had no clue that there even was an England, let alone an America, he completely predicts it's downfall?

People see in Revelation what they want to see, everything from Hitler, the Pope, Muslims, Nuclear War, and Germany, all the while ignoring the more direct, obvious interpretation. It's almost as if they take a Gnostic approach of "No, that's too simple, it can't possibly be that".

Here's what I think is a good interpretation of the text in question

So, pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem, basically. The article makes some good points, as far as what some of the symbolism means etc. But I disagree with it's conclusions.

Personally, I think it refers to literal Babylon, as this is the name written on the w****'s head. Possibly as the capital of a re-established Caliphate, or perhaps as a capital of some other political unit that hasn't come into existence yet, but will be founded in that area. The seven headed beast is the same as the beast in Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzer's vision. It refers to the Roman empire, which is Europe. I think this means that a totally secular (pagan in the ancient context) Europe will likely make some type of union with this Caliphate, which will eventually become nearly global in nature. Daniel described this political union as iron mixed with clay, which infers a culture that encompasses two incompatible sub-cultures. Such as secular Europe and Religious Islam which seem to be quite incompatible. The Roman Empire at it's heighth controlled an area that is roughly analogous to Europe and the Middle East. So I think such an entity will be the so-called revived Roamn Empire. Incidentally, there were several Roman Emperors who were Arabs so this is not without precedent.

If you remember the beast in Daniel's vision was the fourth great Empire (Rome), which was gravely wounded (by Christianity) by later reforms in a global political entity in the Eschaton. It's leader is the one that is commonly referred to as the "anti-Christ".

I think the idea that it is apostate Jerusalem is incorrect, as we are told in theRevelation that Jerusalem will be sieged by the forces of this entity in the Eschaton. This would preclude Jerusalem from being the capital of the final and all encompassing global civilization.

People may see this as anti-Islamic, but the sad truth is Islam is a development of Gnostic traditions that are heretical blended with Arab tribal customs. The parts of the Koran that deal with Christ are copied from certain writings refererred to as Gnostic writings, such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary. So it is easy to see why this faith can be described as "anti-Christ", it denies the nature of Christ and is a refinement of early heretical writings that were pervading the scene even as the NT was being written. These are the very same ideas that the apostles were having troubles with as they spread the Faith.

BTW The British Isles were known to the ancient Hebrews, the Phoenicians traveled there regularly to trade for tin, with the Beaker Folk. Plenty of evidence of this contact exists. Ancient Levantine artifacts are found in Britain from time to time.

They referred to this land as Tarshish. Many people relate this to Spain, but it is the British Isles. These lands were a wilderness compared to the Middle Eastern civilizations at this time, so it is not surprising this would be referred to as a wilderness in prophecy.

Before any jumps down my throat, I'm not making any value judgments here about Islam.

I'm just saying what the prophecy looks like to me. A time when the light of Christianity is shut off in the world, by forces that exist in this world.

[psholtz]

Todd D. wrote: Right. Despite the fact that the author had no clue that there even was an England, let alone an America, he completely predicts it's downfall?
He'd be a pretty crappy prophet if he *didn't* foresee the rise of America..

America is the single most significant, life-altering, civilization-changing event that's happened in the past 12,000 years. If you're going to take Revelation as some kind of "prophecy" of the future, you're going to have to assume that the prophet knew and foresaw America. Personally, I don't read Revelation on this level .. I see it as more of a personal revelation, but still.. if that's the path you're going to take, you *better* find America in there somewhere or else your prophet is little more than a 2-bit charlatan..

[psholtz]

Todd D. wrote: Right. Despite the fact that the author had no clue that there even was an England, let alone an America, he completely predicts it's downfall?
Also, I think the existence of England was known to the Jews of that era..

It was certainly known to the Romans of that era, and the Jews were under Roman occupation at that time. It's alleged (on pretty decent grounds) that Joseph of Arimethea had extensive trade relations w/ merchants in the British Isles..

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: America is the single most significant, life-altering, civilization-changing event that's happened in the past 12,000 years.

Rolls on the floor kicking legs in the air. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You poor little egocentric man - checks the date - nup not April first, he must really mean it

[Todd D.]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: America is the single most significant, life-altering, civilization-changing event that's happened in the past 12,000 years.

Rolls on the floor kicking legs in the air. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You poor little egocentric man - checks the date - nup not April first, he must really mean it
Actually, American or not, you might have to agree with that. Perhaps the foundation of Greece or the Birth of Christ, but the formation of the United States and its effects (from the collapse of the British Empire to our foreign presence today) is certainly among the Top 5.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Actually, American or not, you might have to agree with that. Perhaps the foundation of Greece or the Birth of Christ, but the formation of the United States and its effects (from the collapse of the British Empire to our foreign presence today) is certainly among the Top 5.

Nup not even close

The invention the wheel

The invention of writing

The invention of argiculture and animal husbandary.

The invention of the arch

The invention of the Dome

The invention of the printing press

I am up to item six and have not even started on former empires, military conquests discoverers countries etc etc

Seriously this has to be a wind up - The US has only been culturally dominating this planet for 50 years. Politically maybe 75 years,

[psholtz]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: Actually, American or not, you might have to agree with that. Perhaps the foundation of Greece or the Birth of Christ, but the formation of the United States and its effects (from the collapse of the British Empire to our foreign presence today) is certainly among the Top 5.

Nup not even close

The invention the wheel

The invention of writing

The invention of argiculture and animal husbandary.

The invention of the arch

The invention of the Dome

The invention of the printing press

I am up to item six and have not even started on former empires, military conquests discoverers countries etc etc

Seriously this has to be a wind up - The US has only been culturally dominating this planet for 50 years. Politically maybe 75 years,
Except for the dome and the printing press, these are all inventions that have been around for millenia.. Many of them for at least that 12,000 year span I cited above.

America, on the other hand, has brought the world planes (which weigh many tons) which can sail through the air at multiplie times the speed of sound, computers/electronics/telephony/communications which spans the globe and let's you talk to someone in Japan instantly, it's conquered many of the world's most dreaded diseases, nuclear-powered submarines (nuclear-powered anything, for that matter), it takes trips to the Moon, etc.

You can't compare that to anything that came before it. Some of these things may be good, some may be bad, but there're all at a completely different level than anything that came from the Old World and they have completely and totally and utterly change the course of the world and civilization.

America is also the only country which - at least in theory - tried to treat all men equally (under the Law) and which recognized each man as a sovereign, w/ all due power coming from God Himself ("We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator w/ certain inalienable rights, etc") Again, a totally revolutionary way of looking at the world.

[Wizard From Oz]

Except for the dome and the printing press, these are all inventions that have been around for millenia.. Many of them for at least that 12,000 year span I cited above.

Ohh really - ya better let some people know - cause there are a lot of schools and researches have not heard this

America, on the other hand, has brought the world planes (which weigh many tons) which can sail through the air at multiplie times the speed of sound.

Hmmm - first operational jet fighter - German, then British

Only supersonic passanger jet Concorde (British/French)

Fastest non supersonic jet airliner Russian

Largest operational passanger jet (A310 Airbus) French

Fastest Military jet fighter Russian

You do hold the all out speed record with the SR71, and first aircraft to offically break the sound barrier X1

it's conquered many of the world's most dreaded diseases,

And this has not been done before?????

nuclear-powered submarines (nuclear-powered anything, for that matter),

Looks at all thos pesky Russian nuclear subs and icebreakers

it takes trips to the Moon, etc.

So have the Soviets - in fact they were the first to hit and go around the back of it. The ESA has also gone there

You can't compare that to anything that came before it. Some of these things may be good, some may be bad, but there're all at a completely different level than anything that came from the Old World and they have completely and totally and utterly change the course of the world and civilization.

Like I said - stop being ignorant. If you want to see heavy hitters of empire and world influence go do a little reading of the Roman empire. I do agree with one point. I wont be making distinctions between good and bad influences

America is also the only country which - at least in theory - tried to treat all men equally (under the Law) and which recognized each man as a sovereign, w/ all due power coming from God Himself ("We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator w/ certain inalienable rights, etc") Again, a totally revolutionary way of looking at the world.

Is that the same document that rates a slave 3/5 of a normal person?


[/b][/quote]

[cap'n queasy]

The formation of the US is sort of like the pinnacle of the social progress achieved by the Enlightenment Period.

So, it's a pretty darn important point in human social development. And it's built on a foundation of centuries of Old World development and philosophy so it's not something that Americans can take all of the credit for.

It's more like an achievment of humanity as a whole. All can benefit from the discoveries this revolutionary period in human thought has made possible.

[psholtz]

MG1962 wrote: America is also the only country which - at least in theory - tried to treat all men equally (under the Law) and which recognized each man as a sovereign, w/ all due power coming from God Himself ("We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator w/ certain inalienable rights, etc") Again, a totally revolutionary way of looking at the world.

Is that the same document that rates a slave 3/5 of a normal person?
No, it's not.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: The formation of the US is sort of like the pinnacle of the social progress achieved by the Enlightenment Period.

So, it's a pretty darn important point in human social development. And it's built on a foundation of centuries of Old World development and philosophy so it's not something that Americans can take all of the credit for.

It's more like an achievment of humanity as a whole. All can benefit from the discoveries this revolutionary period in human thought has made possible

Yeah I would agree with that - and I think the only problem you have is a sense of fracturing within that society. I think the melting pot of humanity will need to be left on simmer for a bit longer before we really see the true potential that the US as a nation, or as an empire will have to offer the world

[Hawkins]

Thou I dont wanna be anti-america, I cant shake if off.

The "white horse" could well be the "white house" (dont show me your Hebrew knowledge here :wink: ). Even the 666 could represent Washington.


A Soviet officer asked, "Any news from Washington (the beast) recently". Answered, "No, I see only the dollar notes with Wahsington on them".

[melchizedek22]

Hawkins wrote: Thou I dont wanna be anti-america, I cant shake if off.

The "white horse" could well be the "white house" (dont show me your Hebrew knowledge here :wink: ). Even the 666 could represent Washington.


A Soviet officer asked, "Any news from Washington (the beast) recently". Answered, "No, I see only the dollar notes with Wahsington on them".

the opposite of the Passover Lamb Jesus is
The Passover Angel Apollyon The Destroyer

Can anyone name a world power Gentile nation that is occupying
Old Babylon?

[psholtz]

melchizedek22 wrote: Hawkins wrote: Thou I dont wanna be anti-america, I cant shake if off.

The "white horse" could well be the "white house" (dont show me your Hebrew knowledge here :wink: ). Even the 666 could represent Washington.


A Soviet officer asked, "Any news from Washington (the beast) recently". Answered, "No, I see only the dollar notes with Wahsington on them".

the opposite of the Passover Lamb Jesus is
The Passover Angel Apollyon The Destroyer

Can anyone name a world power Gentile nation that is occupying
Old Babylon?
And building the world's largest embassy there, no less..

[LetsGetReal]

MG1962 wrote: Except for the dome and the printing press, these are all inventions that have been around for millenia.. Many of them for at least that 12,000 year span I cited above.

Ohh really - ya better let some people know - cause there are a lot of schools and researches have not heard this

America, on the other hand, has brought the world planes (which weigh many tons) which can sail through the air at multiplie times the speed of sound.

Hmmm - first operational jet fighter - German, then British

Only supersonic passanger jet Concorde (British/French)

Fastest non supersonic jet airliner Russian

Largest operational passanger jet (A310 Airbus) French

Fastest Military jet fighter Russian

You do hold the all out speed record with the SR71, and first aircraft to offically break the sound barrier X1

it's conquered many of the world's most dreaded diseases,

And this has not been done before?????

nuclear-powered submarines (nuclear-powered anything, for that matter),

Looks at all thos pesky Russian nuclear subs and icebreakers

it takes trips to the Moon, etc.

So have the Soviets - in fact they were the first to hit and go around the back of it. The ESA has also gone there

You can't compare that to anything that came before it. Some of these things may be good, some may be bad, but there're all at a completely different level than anything that came from the Old World and they have completely and totally and utterly change the course of the world and civilization.

Like I said - stop being ignorant. If you want to see heavy hitters of empire and world influence go do a little reading of the Roman empire. I do agree with one point. I wont be making distinctions between good and bad influences

America is also the only country which - at least in theory - tried to treat all men equally (under the Law) and which recognized each man as a sovereign, w/ all due power coming from God Himself ("We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator w/ certain inalienable rights, etc") Again, a totally revolutionary way of looking at the world.

Is that the same document that rates a slave 3/5 of a normal person?


[/b] [/quote]

Personal Computer- America

The networking capabilities that in the future created the internet(We did most of the work for the internet as well :wink: )- America

Stealth Bomber- America

Stealth Fighter- America

Hydrogen Bomb- America

Assembly Line- America

Greatest Economic Powerhouse- America

What country creates more wealth for other nations than any other- America

Glasses- America

Most Dominant Jet Fighter- F 15

Would you like me to keep going? Sorry to sidetrack i just don't like people believing in things that aren't true.

[cap'n queasy]

melchizedek22 wrote: Hawkins wrote: Thou I dont wanna be anti-america, I cant shake if off.

The "white horse" could well be the "white house" (dont show me your Hebrew knowledge here :wink: ). Even the 666 could represent Washington.


A Soviet officer asked, "Any news from Washington (the beast) recently". Answered, "No, I see only the dollar notes with Wahsington on them".

the opposite of the Passover Lamb Jesus is
The Passover Angel Apollyon The Destroyer

Can anyone name a world power Gentile nation that is occupying
Old Babylon?

I seriously doubt that the US is going to make Babylon it's capital.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: America is the single most significant, life-altering, civilization-changing event that's happened in the past 12,000 years

This was your original statement that I objected to.

Quote: Personal Computer- America

The networking capabilities that in the future created the internet(We did most of the work for the internet as well )- America

Stealth Bomber- America

Stealth Fighter- America

Hydrogen Bomb- America

Assembly Line- America

Greatest Economic Powerhouse- America

What country creates more wealth for other nations than any other- America

Glasses- America

Most Dominant Jet Fighter- F 15


Just to correct you on one - Glasses - I assume you mean spectacles, where invented in the 16th century. Now look at that list - with the exception of the internet. Do you honestly see any of those advances as being Earth shattering enough to support your orginal claim.

I am not debating the US current position in the world - I am debating if that qualifies as greatest in the last 12,000 years.

Example the economic factors on your list. At various times through history, other nations have had the same economic strangle hold on their know world. I dont point that out as a negative, simply an observation

With the stealth technology - Is this any more important than the Hittities developement of the bronze spear tip. History is filled with examples of weapons that dominated the battle field.

With the hydrogen bomb, ask yourself. How will the world be different in 100 or 500 years from now because of its invention. It is fair to say that over the last fifty years it has had a massive impact on society and civilisation. But what has the future to hold. Will something bigger or scarier come along to give us things to worry about.

It is simply to soon to be saying the US is the ultimate event in the history of man. Some social anthropologists and historians even argue that the current world civilisation (US included) is in fact simply an extention of the Roman Empire. I cant say I subscribe to that point of view, but again time will tell.

As somone pointed out America is still a social and economic experiement in progress, the last hurrah for the age of enlightenment. We really do need to give the process more time before judging the results and impacts