Political Crossfire Forums

[melchizedek22]

The_Right_Honourable wrote: Errr....

Barbarians and quite probably climate change(malaria probably killed alot of people in italy and caused terrible infant mortality and weaken the ehalth of the army) did for the romans.

America isnt conquering places like the romans did.

tell that to the Indians

[eynon]

NAB wrote: wannabe wrote: THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

nice......... :)


as to the America/Rome analogy, it's hard to say we've much in common with the Romans of the 4th and 5th centuries, but you can see some similarities between the Rome circa 100 bc and modern America:

-wide-spread Public debt due to war and corruption......(Rome was burdened with debt from wars in Spain, Greece, Asia, and Africa, we have debt from the cold-war and now the war on terror)
-wide-spread Private debt due to increased costs and a changing economy.....(Rome was switching from Agrarian to Mercantile, the US from Industrial to Service)
-massive immigration and assimilation issues(Rome was getting a massive influx of ethnic Greeks and Gauls, the US Latin Americans....both situations were/are seen as threats to national security and traditional Roman/American values)
-incompetent amateur leadership of the military(Rome lost nearly 200,000 men between 115 bc and 100 bc in wars often led by senators with little military experience....read Rumsfeld, Cheney, McNamara)
-Growing divide between rural/urban populations
-Growing divide between religious conservatives and liberals
-Growing gap between rich and poor, greater accumulation of wealth in fewer and fewer hands
-Growing power of special interest, especially foreign special interests(Rome had the Seleucid and Egyptians, we have the Saudis and Chinese)
-Wide-spread fear and hatred of this new Imperialist and un-cultured power(Rome's first major foreign wars were only 100 years before....same with the US)

so expect the Brothers Gracci any day now, followed by Marius, a Social War, Sulla, Caesar, and finally Augustus.

Good post.

I've seen the Rome/US comparison bandied about quite a bit and if there is a comparison, I'd agree with the later Republic era as well. You made some pretty good analogies imho. For some reason Marcus Crassus' ill-fated trip into the middle east pops in my head when I think of the modern Iraq mess.

So do we have to look forward to the following events before we REALLY become an Empire:
Slave Revolt
Numerous Generals taking power and continual Civil War
Rise of a powerful/skilled General Poltician who becomes ruler for life who's heir finally takes the reigns and creates the real Empire.

Goody, goody. Better clean my gun because it's going to be a busy next few years or so. :shock:

Btw, who's going to play the part of Cleopatra? :wink:

Cleopatra? my bet would be some sultry Japanese super-model with a kinky-streak.........

Slave Revolts? thing is we export most of our nasty labor, and that which is left is done by more the willing immigrants......a revolt among the "slave" labor in China would have a nasty effect on our economy....class issues in this country are more between the middle and lower classes.

Civil War? can't really see one happening right now, but you never know, governmet approval is at an all time low, some major economic/social catastrophies could spiral things out of control.....in that case many Americans may look to generals to restore order, like in New Orleans after Katrina.

General Statemen? hey we got em now.....we've always had em, course so did the Romans......Washington was often called the new Cincinnatius.....thing is that our military is a much smaller part of our society then for the society of the Roman republic. Maybe in our day it won't be the general-polticians we have to worry about as much as the ceo-politicians.

[eynon]

melchizedek22 wrote: The_Right_Honourable wrote: Errr....

Barbarians and quite probably climate change(malaria probably killed alot of people in italy and caused terrible infant mortality and weaken the ehalth of the army) did for the romans.

America isnt conquering places like the romans did.

tell that to the Indians

I would if I could find any :lol:

[The Comrade]

Tempest wrote: if you 've studied rome for ten years you would know there was no single contributer to the fall of rome. it was a series of events. the immigration of the goths was just one of those events.[/quote]

The failure to include the Goths into the empire was the event, not the immigration itself.[/quote]

the goths were allowed in. they decided to be little pricks about it and start a revolt.

[The Comrade]

johnshotme wrote: Rome didnt fall just because of immigration just one other issue, it was a combination of things. A combination that i see happening to America today. In some ways.


:tu: hit the nail on the head.

[johnshotme]

The Comrade wrote: johnshotme wrote: Rome didnt fall just because of immigration just one other issue, it was a combination of things. A combination that i see happening to America today. In some ways.


:tu: hit the nail on the head.

Thank you.

[ubikk]

micfranklin wrote:

Not to mention Rome had a huge empire which was stretched widely, but very thinly over half of the world.

The empire was primarily an empire of roads. The farther you got from the main roads, the less control Rome had. They were also always sending out troops to put down "troublemakers" in diffferent areas. However, they did manage the Pax Romana, a period of peace that lasted about 200 years. Almost as long as the US has been a country.

Another really interesting thing about the Romans is that in ancient Rome there was hardly any trace of racism. Everyone was welcome and everyone fraternized with everyone else. There was classism in as far as citizens and non-citizens, but there was no widespready racial discrimination that was based on skin color and stuff like that.

[Tempest]

Nothing like being a p***k about being included in the government that you are dying to defend.

[Jimz]

Of course, Rome, having lasted about 800 years as the pre-eminent world power of its' time, collapsed and faded from the world scene for a number of reasons, many of which the U.S. and every world power which has ever occupied the top of the pecking order, has emulated. The saying "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutley", can be applied to nation-states as well as individuals. The rise to the top depends on access to, and proper utilization of a wide range of resources as well as competent leadership in a political system which is conducive to economic, social, and military growth. A certain amount of national drive, bravado, and arrogance is required in the right mixes to thrive and advance. However, once a nation reaches the top of the heap, a general sense of satisfaction has a tendency to set in. Internal grabs of power and wealth become important leading to corruption and consequent disillusionment on the part of much of the populace whose slice of the economic pie shrinks. Finite resources, which are not perceived to be limited, are wasted on wars and other national pursuits of irresponsible adventure. A false confidence and complacency sets in. Living the good life is the goal of most citizens. The nation loses its' edge. It forgets what needs to be done to perpetuate power, strength and dominance, and what made the nation great to begin with. Novel ideas and widespread creativity that allowed the production of wealth get tired and stale. A nation begins to believe its' own press. It really thinks that a diety has annointed it as the chosen one, and good times will last forever. Inevitably, that is the beginning of the end. A new national kid on the block comes along as a challenger and ultimate victor in the king of the hill sweepstakes. It happened to Rome. It has happened to every power since then. It will, and is happening to us.

ThotsNRamblins

[smcasey08]

The problem that America is facing right now IS apathy, stemming from the fact that not nearly enough people are voting, or nominating competent officials for political offices. Though we are pushing for higher education and the number of college students is up a large percentage from 50 years ago. Yet, why do so few Americans vote? We teach and learn all our lives, but the fact is that no one wants to change the system anymore because it appears to work.
Which is why immigrants come to America. Yet, since they came here illegally, we dont give them the right to vote. Why? Because they were as lazy as Americans, and didnt want to do it the way they were supposed to. The fact that they come here and b**** about our apathy and protest, which i might add is NOT a right for illegal immigrants, astounds me.
America isn't dying. It's being leached.

[Mikate8]

Good thing for America is that we won't be in Iraq and Afghanistan forever

Yep, and every four years we get to elect a new president

Its too bad that we're getting lazy and don't want to vote, especially the teenagers, P diddy threatened to kill them all but still piss poor votes from punk kids.

Crazy immigrants are out there, but we still need them because I don't see Americans lining up to pick fruit and vegetables from fields all day for meager wages.

Rome, and corrupt politicians, we should find the corrupt politicians. Then we shall tar and feather them and send them back to Rome, oh wait, I mean somewhere they won't like thats here.

Maybe if we stockpile on lots of guns we won't fall like the Roman Empire, because your average roman citizen never owned a ... hmm, whats a cool gun?... (insert your cool gun here, i'll think of my choice later)
oh wait, those crazy plebs never had any AR-15's or AK-47's with big drum round magazines or .50 caliber sniper rifles or .500 caliber revolvers that could kick the ass of any would be insurgent in our country. .50 caliber sniper rifle fighting against insurgents in America in urban fighting, you surely jest. Ok then bust out that 12 gauge shotty and either use buckshot or pump them full of sabot rounds

[ubikk]

melchizedek22 wrote: Limey Boosk wrote: America is a dying Empire.

China will probably replace it in about 30 years time.

Brought down by American apathy and corrupt capitalists that do not care about the American people.

I would rather go down fighting like the British or the Romans.

Killed by the pen. The pen that signs another batch of cheap clothes from China.
that reminds me I need to stop by Walmarts! :P

Did you know you Walmart's has a gallon of pickes for only 2.99?! The pickle maker almost went bankrupt, but dang, those pickels are cheap. And boy does it take a long time to eat a gallon of pickes...

Actually, I buy most of my clothes and shoes from domestic and when possible union producers. It's not really that much more expensive, and since the clothes usually last longer and I don't buy clothes that often, it's a small sacrifice to make, IMO. I have a list of domestic clothing and shoe makers if anyone is interested.

[wyldejackyl]

ubikk: PM me that list of manufacturers!

And Mikate8..what is your point?
People here wont' pick fruit for meager wages..who says they have to be meager? The people at Walmart and other discounters who are looking to preserve their profits at the expense of their workforce's well being. Maybe if they paid people what they were worth (and people weren't so lazy), the jobs would be filled by Americans. We used to work for money, until we got lazy and felt that we didnt' have to (cough, welfare, cough).

Guns have NOTHING to do with this argument, esp when owned by the populace and not the government. You can't blame the presence of guns for anything, just like you can't claim too many hammers means the real estate market gets flooded with new homes.

We should find the corrupt politicians. Put them in jail at the least or hang them at the most, or put them in front of a firing squad for treason (Bushco). You're saying we owe them asylum?!

Every 4 years we elect a new president which is put in place by one of two parties who are backed by all the money of our corporations, who use them like puppets. These are people out for their own agendas, not ours..and they fail to realize that their selfishness isn't becoming of the office they take. A president is there for representation..not to do what he wants (with a patsy congress that grants him dictatorial powers without question).

So things really aren't as good as you say they are, and we really ARE on the path that Rome was. Only we aren't trying to tie together many cultures and lands..we're trying to cope with people who leech off of our country, refuse to assimiliate (blatantly), and using resources beyond our means. Our arms are economic, not relating to massive amounts of property. Follow the money.

[Alextyphus]

eynon wrote: THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

nice......... :)


as to the America/Rome analogy, it's hard to say we've much in common with the Romans of the 4th and 5th centuries, but you can see some similarities between the Rome circa 100 bc and modern America:

-wide-spread Public debt due to war and corruption......(Rome was burdened with debt from wars in Spain, Greece, Asia, and Africa, we have debt from the cold-war and now the war on terror)
-wide-spread Private debt due to increased costs and a changing economy.....(Rome was switching from Agrarian to Mercantile, the US from Industrial to Service)
-massive immigration and assimilation issues(Rome was getting a massive influx of ethnic Greeks and Gauls, the US Latin Americans....both situations were/are seen as threats to national security and traditional Roman/American values)
-incompetent amateur leadership of the military(Rome lost nearly 200,000 men between 115 bc and 100 bc in wars often led by senators with little military experience....read Rumsfeld, Cheney, McNamara)
-Growing divide between rural/urban populations
-Growing divide between religious conservatives and liberals
-Growing gap between rich and poor, greater accumulation of wealth in fewer and fewer hands
-Growing power of special interest, especially foreign special interests(Rome had the Seleucid and Egyptians, we have the Saudis and Chinese)
-Wide-spread fear and hatred of this new Imperialist and un-cultured power(Rome's first major foreign wars were only 100 years before....same with the US)

so expect the Brothers Gracci any day now, followed by Marius, a Social War, Sulla, Caesar, and finally Augustus.

My first post, seems like an interesting site.

Well said definitely. I dont think that the future will be as bloody as it was for Rome with the Gracchis, Civil War etc etc but there will be change.

Has the American Government gone to far in meddling with other country's affairs?

And are they asking for a Roman style revolution, removing the Republic and bringing in an altogether more decisive type of leadership?

Alex

[Mikate8]

wyldejackyl wrote: ubikk: PM me that list of manufacturers!

And Mikate8..what is your point?
People here wont' pick fruit for meager wages..who says they have to be meager? The people at Walmart and other discounters who are looking to preserve their profits at the expense of their workforce's well being. Maybe if they paid people what they were worth (and people weren't so lazy), the jobs would be filled by Americans. We used to work for money, until we got lazy and felt that we didnt' have to (cough, welfare, cough).

Guns have NOTHING to do with this argument, esp when owned by the populace and not the government. You can't blame the presence of guns for anything, just like you can't claim too many hammers means the real estate market gets flooded with new homes.

We should find the corrupt politicians. Put them in jail at the least or hang them at the most, or put them in front of a firing squad for treason (Bushco). You're saying we owe them asylum?!

Every 4 years we elect a new president which is put in place by one of two parties who are backed by all the money of our corporations, who use them like puppets. These are people out for their own agendas, not ours..and they fail to realize that their selfishness isn't becoming of the office they take. A president is there for representation..not to do what he wants (with a patsy congress that grants him dictatorial powers without question).

So things really aren't as good as you say they are, and we really ARE on the path that Rome was. Only we aren't trying to tie together many cultures and lands..we're trying to cope with people who leech off of our country, refuse to assimiliate (blatantly), and using resources beyond our means. Our arms are economic, not relating to massive amounts of property. Follow the money.

Oh yea things are great. Tell me how again you're going to kill off the corrupt politicians and get corporations to stop being greedy? Oh you've got fairy dust. Well now you're talking.

OMG I didnt blame alien SH** on guns. ARRRRGGGG F***ING PIRATE ANGER ON YOU. I said guns are good because Roman citizens didn't have them. Just for that I don't respect you anymore. I said guns will help and then you said i'm blaming it all on guns. You're dead to me.