Political Crossfire Forums

[micfranklin]

All empires can and will eventually fall, 'nuff said.

[GTTofAK]

micfranklin wrote: All empires can and will eventually fall, 'nuff said.

America is not an empire we do not control any significant territory against the will of those who inhabit it. Saying America will fall is a dumb as saying Russia, China or India will fall. America, as defined by the land mass upon which those who inhabit it identify themselves as Americans, is huge and will always be a world player.

[ubikk]

There are a lot of similarities between Ancient Rome and the Modern US:

Rome had exhausted its treasury paying for the military
Rome began to lose control of tax collection as wealth citizens moved outside the main cities roads and delayed paying their taxes
Rome debased their currency in order to fund the government and public infrastructure, not unlike deficit spending
Rome had an expensive and unsuccessful attempt at invading Iraq
The Roman state frequently touted religion which brewed dissent
Rome had an enourmous class division between a very few wealthy and a lot of poor people. Those poor people ultimately had little stake in defending their empire when it was invaded.

[The Comrade]

ubikk wrote: There are a lot of similarities between Ancient Rome and the Modern US:

Rome had exhausted its treasury paying for the military
Rome began to lose control of tax collection as wealth citizens moved outside the main cities roads and delayed paying their taxes
Rome debased their currency in order to fund the government and public infrastructure, not unlike deficit spending
Rome had an expensive and unsuccessful attempt at invading Iraq
The Roman state frequently touted religion which brewed dissent
Rome had an enourmous class division between a very few wealthy and a lot of poor people. Those poor people ultimately had little stake in defending their empire when it was invaded.



actually the the military was under funded, which often led to either revolt, conscription, or refusal to fight. it's things like this that made it so the gauls could revolt, the jutes could invade england, the visigoths and ostrogoths could sack rome or atleast defeat the armies.

also, it was campaigns like dacia holding israel. those were really expensive. and the civl wars and and the crisis of the third century were the final nails in romes coffin. if only galienus hadn't died so soon.

[johnshotme]

GTTofAK wrote: micfranklin wrote: All empires can and will eventually fall, 'nuff said.

America is not an empire we do not control any significant territory against the will of those who inhabit it. Saying America will fall is a dumb as saying Russia, China or India will fall. America, as defined by the land mass upon which those who inhabit it identify themselves as Americans, is huge and will always be a world player.

America may not "fall" but we will not be the world's superpower forever. True we will always be a world player but not always be on top as we are now.

[johnshotme]

The Comrade wrote: ubikk wrote: There are a lot of similarities between Ancient Rome and the Modern US:

Rome had exhausted its treasury paying for the military
Rome began to lose control of tax collection as wealth citizens moved outside the main cities roads and delayed paying their taxes
Rome debased their currency in order to fund the government and public infrastructure, not unlike deficit spending
Rome had an expensive and unsuccessful attempt at invading Iraq
The Roman state frequently touted religion which brewed dissent
Rome had an enourmous class division between a very few wealthy and a lot of poor people. Those poor people ultimately had little stake in defending their empire when it was invaded.



actually the the military was under funded, which often led to either revolt, conscription, or refusal to fight. it's things like this that made it so the gauls could revolt, the jutes could invade england, the visigoths and ostrogoths could sack rome or atleast defeat the armies.

also, it was campaigns like dacia holding israel. those were really expensive. and the civl wars and and the crisis of the third century were the final nails in romes coffin. if only galienus hadn't died so soon.

That and the lack of good Generals. Towards the end you see alot of stupid military mistakes made by Rome.

[eynon]

THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

nice......... :)


as to the America/Rome analogy, it's hard to say we've much in common with the Romans of the 4th and 5th centuries, but you can see some similarities between the Rome circa 100 bc and modern America:

-wide-spread Public debt due to war and corruption......(Rome was burdened with debt from wars in Spain, Greece, Asia, and Africa, we have debt from the cold-war and now the war on terror)
-wide-spread Private debt due to increased costs and a changing economy.....(Rome was switching from Agrarian to Mercantile, the US from Industrial to Service)
-massive immigration and assimilation issues(Rome was getting a massive influx of ethnic Greeks and Gauls, the US Latin Americans....both situations were/are seen as threats to national security and traditional Roman/American values)
-incompetent amateur leadership of the military(Rome lost nearly 200,000 men between 115 bc and 100 bc in wars often led by senators with little military experience....read Rumsfeld, Cheney, McNamara)
-Growing divide between rural/urban populations
-Growing divide between religious conservatives and liberals
-Growing gap between rich and poor, greater accumulation of wealth in fewer and fewer hands
-Growing power of special interest, especially foreign special interests(Rome had the Seleucid and Egyptians, we have the Saudis and Chinese)
-Wide-spread fear and hatred of this new Imperialist and un-cultured power(Rome's first major foreign wars were only 100 years before....same with the US)

so expect the Brothers Gracci any day now, followed by Marius, a Social War, Sulla, Caesar, and finally Augustus.

[eynon]

johnshotme wrote: The Comrade wrote: ubikk wrote: There are a lot of similarities between Ancient Rome and the Modern US:

Rome had exhausted its treasury paying for the military
Rome began to lose control of tax collection as wealth citizens moved outside the main cities roads and delayed paying their taxes
Rome debased their currency in order to fund the government and public infrastructure, not unlike deficit spending
Rome had an expensive and unsuccessful attempt at invading Iraq
The Roman state frequently touted religion which brewed dissent
Rome had an enourmous class division between a very few wealthy and a lot of poor people. Those poor people ultimately had little stake in defending their empire when it was invaded.



actually the the military was under funded, which often led to either revolt, conscription, or refusal to fight. it's things like this that made it so the gauls could revolt, the jutes could invade england, the visigoths and ostrogoths could sack rome or atleast defeat the armies.

also, it was campaigns like dacia holding israel. those were really expensive. and the civl wars and and the crisis of the third century were the final nails in romes coffin. if only galienus hadn't died so soon.

That and the lack of good Generals. Towards the end you see alot of stupid military mistakes made by Rome.

Stilicho and Belisarius were some pretty great military minds.......

[melchizedek22]

GTTofAK wrote: micfranklin wrote: All empires can and will eventually fall, 'nuff said.

America is not an empire we do not control any significant territory against the will of those who inhabit it. Saying America will fall is a dumb as saying Russia, China or India will fall. America, as defined by the land mass upon which those who inhabit it identify themselves as Americans, is huge and will always be a world player.

Always is a long time,you sound like Nately debating the old man in Catch22

[The Comrade]

wannabe wrote: johnshotme wrote: The Comrade wrote: ubikk wrote: There are a lot of similarities between Ancient Rome and the Modern US:

Rome had exhausted its treasury paying for the military
Rome began to lose control of tax collection as wealth citizens moved outside the main cities roads and delayed paying their taxes
Rome debased their currency in order to fund the government and public infrastructure, not unlike deficit spending
Rome had an expensive and unsuccessful attempt at invading Iraq
The Roman state frequently touted religion which brewed dissent
Rome had an enourmous class division between a very few wealthy and a lot of poor people. Those poor people ultimately had little stake in defending their empire when it was invaded.



actually the the military was under funded, which often led to either revolt, conscription, or refusal to fight. it's things like this that made it so the gauls could revolt, the jutes could invade england, the visigoths and ostrogoths could sack rome or atleast defeat the armies.

also, it was campaigns like dacia holding israel. those were really expensive. and the civl wars and and the crisis of the third century were the final nails in romes coffin. if only galienus hadn't died so soon.

That and the lack of good Generals. Towards the end you see alot of stupid military mistakes made by Rome.

Stilicho and Belisarius were some pretty great military minds.......

that's just two.

he's right, lack of good generals was a high contributer to roman military defeat.

like i said earlier, if only galienus hadn't died so soon. he could have done so much more good.

[micfranklin]

ubikk wrote: There are a lot of similarities between Ancient Rome and the Modern US:

Rome had exhausted its treasury paying for the military
Rome began to lose control of tax collection as wealth citizens moved outside the main cities roads and delayed paying their taxes
Rome debased their currency in order to fund the government and public infrastructure, not unlike deficit spending
Rome had an expensive and unsuccessful attempt at invading Iraq
The Roman state frequently touted religion which brewed dissent
Rome had an enourmous class division between a very few wealthy and a lot of poor people. Those poor people ultimately had little stake in defending their empire when it was invaded.


Not to mention Rome had a huge empire which was stretched widely, but very thinly over half of the world.

[The_Right_Honourable]

Errr....

Barbarians and quite probably climate change(malaria probably killed alot of people in italy and caused terrible infant mortality and weaken the ehalth of the army) did for the romans.

America isnt conquering places like the romans did.

[Tempest]

johnshotme wrote: "In 376 a large band of Gothic refugees arrived at the Empire's Danube frontier, asking for asylum. In a complete break with established Roman policy, they were allowed in, unsubdued. They revolted, and within two years had defeated and killed the emperor Valens -- the one who had received them -- along with two-thirds of his army, at the battle of Hadrianople."

Letting so many Illegals in and many who want "europeans" to go back to europe will be the downfall of America. If we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it, we shouldl have learned a lesson from Rome.

Rome definitely didn't fall because immigration and neither will America.

[The Comrade]

Tempest wrote: johnshotme wrote: "In 376 a large band of Gothic refugees arrived at the Empire's Danube frontier, asking for asylum. In a complete break with established Roman policy, they were allowed in, unsubdued. They revolted, and within two years had defeated and killed the emperor Valens -- the one who had received them -- along with two-thirds of his army, at the battle of Hadrianople."

Letting so many Illegals in and many who want "europeans" to go back to europe will be the downfall of America. If we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it, we shouldl have learned a lesson from Rome.

Rome definitely didn't fall because immigration and neither will America.


um i suggest you reread your roman history.

[Tempest]

The Comrade wrote: Tempest wrote: johnshotme wrote: "In 376 a large band of Gothic refugees arrived at the Empire's Danube frontier, asking for asylum. In a complete break with established Roman policy, they were allowed in, unsubdued. They revolted, and within two years had defeated and killed the emperor Valens -- the one who had received them -- along with two-thirds of his army, at the battle of Hadrianople."

Letting so many Illegals in and many who want "europeans" to go back to europe will be the downfall of America. If we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it, we shouldl have learned a lesson from Rome.

Rome definitely didn't fall because immigration and neither will America.


um i suggest you reread your roman history.

Since I've studied it over the last 10 years perhaps you could save me the next ten years of rereading and enlighten me to your idea of what brought about the collapse of the Roman empire

[NAB]

wannabe wrote: THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

nice......... :)


as to the America/Rome analogy, it's hard to say we've much in common with the Romans of the 4th and 5th centuries, but you can see some similarities between the Rome circa 100 bc and modern America:

-wide-spread Public debt due to war and corruption......(Rome was burdened with debt from wars in Spain, Greece, Asia, and Africa, we have debt from the cold-war and now the war on terror)
-wide-spread Private debt due to increased costs and a changing economy.....(Rome was switching from Agrarian to Mercantile, the US from Industrial to Service)
-massive immigration and assimilation issues(Rome was getting a massive influx of ethnic Greeks and Gauls, the US Latin Americans....both situations were/are seen as threats to national security and traditional Roman/American values)
-incompetent amateur leadership of the military(Rome lost nearly 200,000 men between 115 bc and 100 bc in wars often led by senators with little military experience....read Rumsfeld, Cheney, McNamara)
-Growing divide between rural/urban populations
-Growing divide between religious conservatives and liberals
-Growing gap between rich and poor, greater accumulation of wealth in fewer and fewer hands
-Growing power of special interest, especially foreign special interests(Rome had the Seleucid and Egyptians, we have the Saudis and Chinese)
-Wide-spread fear and hatred of this new Imperialist and un-cultured power(Rome's first major foreign wars were only 100 years before....same with the US)

so expect the Brothers Gracci any day now, followed by Marius, a Social War, Sulla, Caesar, and finally Augustus.

Good post.

I've seen the Rome/US comparison bandied about quite a bit and if there is a comparison, I'd agree with the later Republic era as well. You made some pretty good analogies imho. For some reason Marcus Crassus' ill-fated trip into the middle east pops in my head when I think of the modern Iraq mess.

So do we have to look forward to the following events before we REALLY become an Empire:
Slave Revolt
Numerous Generals taking power and continual Civil War
Rise of a powerful/skilled General Poltician who becomes ruler for life who's heir finally takes the reigns and creates the real Empire.

Goody, goody. Better clean my gun because it's going to be a busy next few years or so. :shock:

Btw, who's going to play the part of Cleopatra? :wink:

[The Comrade]

Tempest wrote: The Comrade wrote: Tempest wrote: johnshotme wrote: "In 376 a large band of Gothic refugees arrived at the Empire's Danube frontier, asking for asylum. In a complete break with established Roman policy, they were allowed in, unsubdued. They revolted, and within two years had defeated and killed the emperor Valens -- the one who had received them -- along with two-thirds of his army, at the battle of Hadrianople."

Letting so many Illegals in and many who want "europeans" to go back to europe will be the downfall of America. If we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it, we shouldl have learned a lesson from Rome.

Rome definitely didn't fall because immigration and neither will America.


um i suggest you reread your roman history.

Since I've studied it over the last 10 years perhaps you could save me the next ten years of rereading and enlighten me to your idea of what brought about the collapse of the Roman empire

if you 've studied rome for ten years you would know there was no single contributer to the fall of rome. it was a series of events. the immigration of the goths was just one of those events.

[superskippy]

Rome was trying to rule one of the largest most diverse empires this world has ever seen, it ruled the most densly populated areas of the known world with literally hundreds of different cultures, the Romans of Italy themselves were a minority in their own empire. After several centuries unless it was mantained with rulers of the calibre of those who led it to such enormous power and prosperity the task of holding it together would eventually fail. I cannot express the enormity of it, can you imagine trying to rule, Britian, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Monico, Portugal, Spain, Algeria, Morroco, Egypt, Libya, Palestine/Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkey, Greece, Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Hungary, Roumania, Greece, Cyprus, parts of Iran, the Crimia, Moldova, Switzerland, Germany, Slovenia, Czeckslovakia, and probably some other countries I have forgotten, and expect to be able rule an empire amongst them and to make it stand the test of time? You have perhaps over 1,000 different cultural identities, thousands of different groups and ethnic identities, as well as in times of crisis an enormous risk for rebellion and impossibly hard to defend borders.

The United States rules piece of territory against the will of the populace, true we have the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan but intent to rule is clearly not a factor. It maintains a fiercly loyal home population and unlike many other western nations actually has a rising population. The comparison to Rome is foolish, sure their might be economic hardship ahead one day, but the America isnt going to fall because of it.

[Tempest]

[/quote]if you 've studied rome for ten years you would know there was no single contributer to the fall of rome. it was a series of events. the immigration of the goths was just one of those events.[/quote]

The failure to include the Goths into the empire was the event, not the immigration itself.

[johnshotme]

Rome didnt fall just because of immigration just one other issue, it was a combination of things. A combination that i see happening to America today. In some ways.