Political Crossfire Forums

[johnshotme]

"In 376 a large band of Gothic refugees arrived at the Empire's Danube frontier, asking for asylum. In a complete break with established Roman policy, they were allowed in, unsubdued. They revolted, and within two years had defeated and killed the emperor Valens -- the one who had received them -- along with two-thirds of his army, at the battle of Hadrianople."

Letting so many Illegals in and many who want "europeans" to go back to europe will be the downfall of America. If we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it, we shouldl have learned a lesson from Rome.

[THEXRATED]

Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

[thehollowman]

johnshotme wrote: Letting so many Illegals in and many who want "europeans" to go back to europe will be the downfall of America. If we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it, we shouldl have learned a lesson from Rome.

The downfall of America is not immigration, it is corruption. Yes, in America we did base our system of government on the Council of Athens and the Roman Republic, yet our system is a lot more freer than theirs. For one, everyone who comes to American can become a citizen, it takes a few years and lots of paperwork, but overall we except them into our economy fairly quickly. Rome on the other hand did not do this, and "immigrants" were only granted a limited second-class citizenship. We choose to allow these people in, and while there have been a few bad apples, look at the good ones: Albert Einstein, Bob Hope, Arthur Rubenstein and so many more. Immigration is the only reason that I am an American citizen. 150 years ago, my family immigrated from both Germany and France and became American citizens because of immigration.

To compare America to Rome, sure, I can see that. But I am not a "European", I am an American. The people who immigrate here are only trying to find and enjoy the freedoms that we here in America take for granted so much. By all rights they should follow the laws and not become illegal immigrants, but we should revise the system so that they can become citizens faster.

[johnshotme]

Sadly with those freedom seeking people come in terrorist, and 93 sex offenders a day and many people who think THEY own America instead of Americans, thus a problem is brewing. Immigration is good, but too much too fast is bad, not to mention the crime it brings along with terrorism

If terrorist get ahold of some suitcase nukes Russia lost they could walk them across the border into the U.S. Taking in this many this fast is no good for the nation, it will only cause harm, plust many mexicans are for the "reconquer" america's southwest

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/aztlan.html

Were facing an invasion like rome was, will we appease it or stop it?

[GTTofAK]

THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

That's a load of crap. Rome had been through much more trying times in its history but had never fallen because there was no immediate threat to the republic or empire itself. It doesn't matter if your people are screwing pigs so long as barbarians aren't at the gates.

[THEXRATED]

GTTofAK wrote: THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

That's a load of crap. Rome had been through much more trying times in its history but had never fallen because there was no immediate threat to the republic or empire itself. It doesn't matter if your people are screwing pigs so long as barbarians aren't at the gates.

It is funny that you dismiss one of the most respected historian regarding the topic with a single comment of "That's load of crap". How about you read the book and you might learn a thing or two. Keep in mind that he actually uses primary sources quite extensively, which might actually be a foreign concept to you.

[melchizedek22]

Immigration should have been stopped in 1492,its been all down hill fall since then!

[The Comrade]

johnshotme wrote: "In 376 a large band of Gothic refugees arrived at the Empire's Danube frontier, asking for asylum. In a complete break with established Roman policy, they were allowed in, unsubdued. They revolted, and within two years had defeated and killed the emperor Valens -- the one who had received them -- along with two-thirds of his army, at the battle of Hadrianople."

Letting so many Illegals in and many who want "europeans" to go back to europe will be the downfall of America. If we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it, we shouldl have learned a lesson from Rome.

well also if you take into consideration "american vice" and corrupt rulers that don't do anything, then you would have the new rome.

[GTTofAK]

THEXRATED wrote: GTTofAK wrote: THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

That's a load of crap. Rome had been through much more trying times in its history but had never fallen because there was no immediate threat to the republic or empire itself. It doesn't matter if your people are screwing pigs so long as barbarians aren't at the gates.

It is funny that you dismiss one of the most respected historian regarding the topic with a single comment of "That's load of crap". How about you read the book and you might learn a thing or two. Keep in mind that he actually uses primary sources quite extensively, which might actually be a foreign concept to you.

I dont care if he is the king of England. The great historian Vegetius who lived it said that the fall was due barbarization (constant attacks from barbarians) should I takes his word or the king of Englands. I'll instead form my own opinion thank you. Empires all go through internal problems. Internal problems do not cause and empire to fall. Defeat at the hands of an enemy is what causes an empire to fall. Romes social ills had absolutly nothing to do sacking of rome.

[The Comrade]

GTTofAK wrote: THEXRATED wrote: GTTofAK wrote: THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

That's a load of crap. Rome had been through much more trying times in its history but had never fallen because there was no immediate threat to the republic or empire itself. It doesn't matter if your people are screwing pigs so long as barbarians aren't at the gates.

It is funny that you dismiss one of the most respected historian regarding the topic with a single comment of "That's load of crap". How about you read the book and you might learn a thing or two. Keep in mind that he actually uses primary sources quite extensively, which might actually be a foreign concept to you.

I dont care if he is the king of England. The great historian Vegetius who lived it said that the fall was due barbarization (constant attacks from barbarians) should I takes his word or the king of Englands. I'll instead form my own opinion thank you. Empires all go through internal problems. Internal problems do not cause and empire to fall. Defeat at the hands of an enemy is what causes an empire to fall. Romes social ills had absolutly nothing to do sacking of rome.


roman society wouldn't be called roman vice if it was helpful.

[THEXRATED]

Quote: I dont care if he is the king of England. The great historian Vegetius who lived it said that the fall was due barbarization (constant attacks from barbarians) should I takes his word or the king of Englands. I'll instead form my own opinion thank you. Empires all go through internal problems. Internal problems do not cause and empire to fall. Defeat at the hands of an enemy is what causes an empire to fall. Romes social ills had absolutly nothing to do sacking of rome.

Your own opinion in face of these scholars mean very little to me. Your knowledge of primary sources in particular seems lacking and therefore like you, I have to conclude that you are full of crap as well. In particular when your opinion seems rather misinformed as you choose to ignore underlying causes for the decline of the Empire (very well documented). Vegetius for example is one of the primary sources used by Gibbon, but just one of the many. Gibbon is not only author to touch the subject, but if you look at that specific topic it is perhaps best researched and his knowledge and use of primary sources is extensive, but naturally should not be void of INFORMED critisism, which yours is obviously not.

[johnshotme]

GTTofAK wrote: THEXRATED wrote: GTTofAK wrote: THEXRATED wrote: Decline of Rome started much earlier.

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long." [Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B. Bury (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]

That's a load of crap. Rome had been through much more trying times in its history but had never fallen because there was no immediate threat to the republic or empire itself. It doesn't matter if your people are screwing pigs so long as barbarians aren't at the gates.

It is funny that you dismiss one of the most respected historian regarding the topic with a single comment of "That's load of crap". How about you read the book and you might learn a thing or two. Keep in mind that he actually uses primary sources quite extensively, which might actually be a foreign concept to you.

I dont care if he is the king of England. The great historian Vegetius who lived it said that the fall was due barbarization (constant attacks from barbarians) should I takes his word or the king of Englands. I'll instead form my own opinion thank you. Empires all go through internal problems. Internal problems do not cause and empire to fall. Defeat at the hands of an enemy is what causes an empire to fall. Romes social ills had absolutly nothing to do sacking of rome.

Its not just one thing that makes an empire fall. For rome it was mainly the Barbarians but also other things. Not one thing was responsible for it.

America has barbarians at the door(terrorism) and its gonna get worse, add on top the immigration crisis.

If rome would have allowed military's it fought with the just walk into rome at will, Rome would have fallen sooner. Thats what america is doing now.

[Archy]

IF the "illegals" revolt, or anyone for that matter, the rest of America is gonna panic and beat their asses badly. Whether it be the army or ant-mexican rednecks who knows, but America is not gonna collapse because of immigration.

[johnshotme]

Archy wrote: IF the "illegals" revolt, or anyone for that matter, the rest of America is gonna panic and beat their asses badly. Whether it be the army or ant-mexican rednecks who knows, but America is not gonna collapse because of immigration.

Not just because of them, but they are playing a role in it. As did the Goth's in the collapse of Rome.

[Limey Boosk]

America is a dying Empire.

China will probably replace it in about 30 years time.

Brought down by American apathy and corrupt capitalists that do not care about the American people.

I would rather go down fighting like the British or the Romans.

Killed by the pen. The pen that signs another batch of cheap clothes from China.

[lilwolf]

Limey Boosk wrote: America is a dying Empire.

China will probably replace it in about 30 years time.

Brought down by American apathy and corrupt capitalists that do not care about the American people.

I would rather go down fighting like the British or the Romans.

Killed by the pen. The pen that signs another batch of cheap clothes from China.

Maybe but if we go down we go down fighting.
I rather doubt that china will fully replace us. They can make a shot of it when they take the USA and britain because I am sure that the brits buy a lot of cheap stuff from china as well. So you are in the same boat on that issue.

The only thing corrupt are politicians and not the people. People have the power to change things when they are not right. It is called voting. More people are demanding accountability and that's good.
The americans and brits have died side by side numerous times in history so what does that cheese dick remark supposed to mean.
England has its own trade agreements with foreign nations so you will probably die by the pen as well.
How much stuff does England import and from whom...so you are just as much in the boat with imports versus exports as most every other nation. :-|

[melchizedek22]

Limey Boosk wrote: America is a dying Empire.

China will probably replace it in about 30 years time.

Brought down by American apathy and corrupt capitalists that do not care about the American people.

I would rather go down fighting like the British or the Romans.

Killed by the pen. The pen that signs another batch of cheap clothes from China.
that reminds me I need to stop by Walmarts! :P

[Kasey aka Kyle]

Immigration laws are strict but often neccessary, however America take these rules to far, and often in order to give its people a false sense of security push away people who could very well be a valuable commodity to our society. We are a corrupt country who runs the world through a strict military campaign, and simple manipulation. The Iraq war is a cleverly directed conflict to use arabic people as a scapegoat to further control the flow of oil. You see the word terrorist is a word specifically used to create a aura of constant fear, in order to control the citizens of America without any question or concern for our leaders policy. Just as the word Communist was used in order to fight a war on the various Asian races 50 years ago, who remained indiscriminate of American policy, yet we kept killing millions of people and claiming third-world-countries offer a serious or severe threat to us. Reputation and respect are irrelevant to a reply and keep poor people who can't afford to advertise their intelligence in a seperate social distinction or class. Our leaders even manage to rig and control democracy by using these simple manipulation tactics as well as others we do not live in a democracy but rather a two party dictatorship, where we have no real control of what happens. Votes are cast by ignorant people who pretend they understand politics, when really they base their choices on how many commercials they see which is why noone outside Republican or Democratic parties get even somewhat close to being elected. (they are poor and don't have enough funding to let their policies and name be known or respected. So no people of Latin heritage will not destroy America, Americans will by following the same patterns they have for years, listening to all the words of our leaders and having no original thoughts.

[johnshotme]

Limey Boosk wrote: America is a dying Empire.

China will probably replace it in about 30 years time.

Brought down by American apathy and corrupt capitalists that do not care about the American people.

I would rather go down fighting like the British or the Romans.

Killed by the pen. The pen that signs another batch of cheap clothes from China.

Very true. Not just China though, Asia is rising in power as Europe and America are falling. India, Pakistan, South Korea, Japan, China....

[johnshotme]

Kasey aka Kyle wrote: Immigration laws are strict but often neccessary, however America take these rules to far, and often in order to give its people a false sense of security push away people who could very well be a valuable commodity to our society. We are a corrupt country who runs the world through a strict military campaign, and simple manipulation. The Iraq war is a cleverly directed conflict to use arabic people as a scapegoat to further control the flow of oil. You see the word terrorist is a word specifically used to create a aura of constant fear, in order to control the citizens of America without any question or concern for our leaders policy. Just as the word Communist was used in order to fight a war on the various Asian races 50 years ago, who remained indiscriminate of American policy, yet we kept killing millions of people and claiming third-world-countries offer a serious or severe threat to us. Reputation and respect are irrelevant to a reply and keep poor people who can't afford to advertise their intelligence in a seperate social distinction or class. Our leaders even manage to rig and control democracy by using these simple manipulation tactics as well as others we do not live in a democracy but rather a two party dictatorship, where we have no real control of what happens. Votes are cast by ignorant people who pretend they understand politics, when really they base their choices on how many commercials they see which is why noone outside Republican or Democratic parties get even somewhat close to being elected. (they are poor and don't have enough funding to let their policies and name be known or respected. So no people of Latin heritage will not destroy America, Americans will by following the same patterns they have for years, listening to all the words of our leaders and having no original thoughts.

America is the MOST liberal nation when it comes to immigration....lol if we take it too far then evey other nation takes its even further!