Political Crossfire Forums

[F'losrix]

The book in question isn't new - it's at least 10 years old. But it's ideas are being dusted off by some proudly bigoted people for discussion on at least one other Internet forum. [No link because 1) I think the admins here might frown on my linking to their competitors and 2) the stuff was offensive enough that the admins of the other forum have since removed it anyway.]

Background:

Scott Lively, author of "The Pink Swastika: Homosexuals and the Nazi Party", does his best to mix known facts with suspected facts and outright conjecture in an effort to portray homosexuality as deeply intertwined with the foundation of the Nazi party. He attempts to cover his hind end with this statement: Quote: Yet, while we cannot say that homosexuals caused the Holocaust, we must not ignore their central role in Nazism. To the myth of the "pink triangle"-the notion that all homosexuals in Nazi Germany were persecuted-we must respond with the reality of the "pink swastika."

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/lively.html

But on one of his own sites gives details of the preface of the book's 4th edition which contains this statement: Quote: When Kevin Abrams and I published the first edition of this book in 1995, we knew that it would cause controversy, contradicting as it does the common portrayal of homosexuals as exclusively victims of the Nazi regime. For this reason we were scrupulous in our documentation of homosexuals as the true inventors of Nazism and the guiding force behind many Nazi atrocities

http://www.abidingtruth.com/pfrc/books/pinkswastika/html/Preface_.htm

-----

Is that not trying to have one's cake and eat it, too? He won't say that homosexuals caused the holocaust, but he certainly seems to want us to infer it by stating that we're the inventors of Nazism and the guiding force behind the atrocities of the holocaust.

The escape route for his apologists will of course be to say that he wasn't talking about modern-day homosexuals as a demographic, but about a specific bunch of homosexual individuals undeniably involved in the Nazi party.

I'm afraid I have to assert that the intent behind presenting this information may not be to debunk some myth that gay people were only victims of the holocaust as the author claims. Anyone who has dared to take an unflinching look at the history of that human tragedy, examining it from a balanced perspective will understand that yes, a number of known homosexuals were involved in the early rise of the Nazi party, that some of these escaped the purge of homosexuals from the party, which probably was more for political than so-called moral reasons, but --- one should also come away with the understanding that MANY MORE homosexuals were rounded up and imprisoned than were involved in the upper ranks of the party. The fact that gay people were generally not targeted for extermination as those of Jewist heritage were does NOT make them any less victims of the Nazi outrages.

So why would Lively right about this stuff? What's his interest in debunking the alleged myths about gay people being victims of Nazi rule?

To understand it, one need only look at his affiliations.

http://www.abidingtruth.com/

http://www.defendthefamily.com/

http://www.afa.net/affiliates/california.asp

Scott Lively is the leader of California's branch office of the American Family Association, known for its obsession with fighting all things gay or gay-related.

Enough background - onto the real point of this thread

I've recently had the misfortune to encounter an individual on another forum using Lively's material to assert that homosexuals as a demographic are to blame for the holocaust. But not satisfied with that simple-minded bashing, the same person uses it as just one component of a larger argument: that gay people are to blame for pretty much every negative historical event imaginable, among those in her list: hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the holocaust, the tsunami that devastated portions of Indonesia, various wars, AIDS and other epidemics, and beileve it or not - the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Now, it's pretty easy to just dismiss this person as a wacko of the worst sort. But this wacko appears to have supporters. So I'm sounding the early alarm to my brothers and sisters in the gay community who take an interest in fighting the anti-gay menace - be on the alert. Stuff like the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust don't happen overnight. They start fairly slow with rumblings that if viewed as isolated occurrances are easily brushed aside. We need to be on the lookout to see if these rumblings gather strength and increase in frequency. They could be waiting for just the right opportunity to emerge from behind-the scenes, to explode with great force to rule the political stage if they can manage to consolidate power by playing on people's fears through effective propaganda.

---

I expect there will be a rush to declare me paranoid and engaging in a similar brand of magical thinking that brings nutballs like those mentioned above to see links that don't really exist and to reach their questionable conclusions. If that's your judgment of me, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

As am I.

[WeThePeople]

Wow, just... wow.
That's even less plausible than talking about how Jews played a central role in the crimes of Stalin and Communist Russia, because Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto. In fact, its almost as useless an observation as saying "We must debunk the myth that german citizens were persecuted during the Nazi Regime. After all, i have proof that there were germans in the government at the time! You see! Germans were totally exempt from harm!"
Quote: To the myth of the "pink triangle"-the notion that all homosexuals in Nazi Germany were persecuted-we must respond with the reality of the "pink swastika." ... This is like people denying that JEWS were prosecuted during the reign of the Third Reich.

I can't stand people like this, abandoning logic and debate to try and make a hidden jab at homosexuality based on... what the Nazi's did? Pleeease
This book is just one big useless observation, only inciting "controversy" in the form of making the rest of us who oppose gay marriage for real reasons look bad by association.

[WeThePeople]

Quote: that gay people are to blame for pretty much every negative historical event imaginable, among those in her list: hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the holocaust, the tsunami that devastated portions of Indonesia, various wars, AIDS and other epidemics, and beileve it or not - the crucifixion of Jesus Christ
:rotf:
THIS explanation I've got to hear sometime :lol:

[John Galt]

WeThePeople wrote: Quote: that gay people are to blame for pretty much every negative historical event imaginable, among those in her list: hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the holocaust, the tsunami that devastated portions of Indonesia, various wars, AIDS and other epidemics, and beileve it or not - the crucifixion of Jesus Christ
:rotf:
THIS explanation I've got to hear sometime :lol:

I believe it is at www.godhatessweden.com or www.godhatesfags.com -- Fred Phelp's site (the "reasoning" is this: because of the vacationing Swedish homosexuals in the area, God sent the earthquake and the consequent tsunami).

[Enoch]

John Galt wrote: WeThePeople wrote: Quote: that gay people are to blame for pretty much every negative historical event imaginable, among those in her list: hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the holocaust, the tsunami that devastated portions of Indonesia, various wars, AIDS and other epidemics, and beileve it or not - the crucifixion of Jesus Christ
:rotf:
THIS explanation I've got to hear sometime :lol:

I believe it is at www.godhatessweden.com or www.godhatesfags.com -- Fred Phelp's site (the "reasoning" is this: because of the vacationing Swedish homosexuals in the area, God sent the earthquake and the consequent tsunami). I wrote a rhetorical theory paper on Phelps, doing a deconstruction of his arguments, and the sad thing is that he honestly believes he is doing it out of love. He feels that he loves "f*gs" and is the only one who does, because HE is willing to tell us the "truth." :roll:

The man is seriously not playing with a full deck.

[John Galt]

UrielsFyre wrote: John Galt wrote: WeThePeople wrote: Quote: that gay people are to blame for pretty much every negative historical event imaginable, among those in her list: hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the holocaust, the tsunami that devastated portions of Indonesia, various wars, AIDS and other epidemics, and beileve it or not - the crucifixion of Jesus Christ
:rotf:
THIS explanation I've got to hear sometime :lol:

I believe it is at www.godhatessweden.com or www.godhatesfags.com -- Fred Phelp's site (the "reasoning" is this: because of the vacationing Swedish homosexuals in the area, God sent the earthquake and the consequent tsunami). I wrote a rhetorical theory paper on Phelps, doing a deconstruction of his arguments, and the sad thing is that he honestly believes he is doing it out of love. He feels that he loves "f*gs" and is the only one who does, because HE is willing to tell us the "truth." :roll:

The man is seriously not playing with a full deck.

I find it interesting that he loves them yet the all loving and forgiving God hates them.

[cap'n queasy]

Although is known that several high ranking Nazi officers were closet homosexuals, I don't see how someone could make the jump from that to the idea that gays were somehow responsible for the holocaust.

[F'losrix]

The thing that grinds me is that some people who will say Phelps is a loon will turn right around and quote the AFA's rantings - and this author is the head of the California AFA.

At least Phelps tells us what he really thinks instead of trying to dress it up with lots of CYA BS. Doesn't matter how much lipstick you put on a pig - it's still a pig.

[toddytodd]

cap'n queasy wrote: Although is known that several high ranking Nazi officers were closet homosexuals, I don't see how someone could make the jump from that to the idea that gays were somehow responsible for the holocaust.

Probably because if someone hates someone else enough, they can 'justify' just about anything.
:(
Intellectually, I don't see it either.
Sometimes I think people take the whole 'conspiracy' thing goes way too far....

[Lumina]

Phelps and his extended family are sick, sick people. If it weren't homosexuals, they'd have another insane target. Evil.

[toddytodd]

Lumina wrote: Phelps and his extended family are sick, sick people. If it weren't homosexuals, they'd have another insane target. Evil.


I heard one of their church members on a radio interview once. She sounded like she has a split personality. While talking about their 'gay issue' she was hateful, disrespectful to the interviewers, cursing, yelling, quoting verses at random (sometimes it sounded like she was speaking in tongues at random), etc.
Once the interview was over, she was very pleasant and amiable.
I tell ya', it was almost like what one would think it would sound like it talking to a demon possessed person.....

I was very odd... :?

Once, at my city's Gay Pride, Fred (who use to come every year) punched a police horse in the face (which I would have loved to see the horse stomp the living cr*p out of him but the horse had better manners) and then turn around and try to poor gasoline on a nun who was there picking the gay parade just like he was.

I don't think they know who to hate to be honest....

[Ek0nomik]

toddytodd wrote: Once, at my city's Gay Pride, Fred (who use to come every year) punched a police horse in the face (which I would have loved to see the horse stomp the living cr*p out of him but the horse had better manners) and then turn around and try to poor gasoline on a nun who was there picking the gay parade just like he was.

Holy smokes, he sounds like a true American hero. I bet he has a tattoo on his eyelid he's so masculine.

In all seriousness, this issue is going to take time. I still strongly believe time is the key factor in the homosexuality debate. The debate shouldn't even be taking place. I still find it embaressing that our country won't flat out show respect for homosexuals.

The homosexuality debate exists because of insecurity, religious tactics, and political gain. Only time, which brings tolerance, will rid of these factors.