Political Crossfire Forums

[Mare Tranquillity]

cap'n queasy wrote: If transgender identifity is a medical condition where a literal female brain is in a male body, or vice versa, why shouldn't the condition be treated immediately?

Would you wait until someone is 18 to fix their broken leg?

The replies to the OP that appear here reveal that they do not really buy into the idea that this is a legitimate physical disorder, but rather a mental condition, but they want to be politically correct.

If it is a true physical, medical condition fixing it early would be the best idea. And everyone knows that.

Thank you, Cap'n. You earned my respect with this thoughtful post.
Mare

[Pareve]

Babylon_Horuv wrote: Pareve wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: Pareve wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

I often did things during high school because i knew they would infuriate or annoy the other kids. Many rebellious kids do. I also knew that if sex changes were cheap, easy, and reversible I would have gotten one, probably still would but it was something I considered much more seriously as a teenager. I never took action on it, or discussed it with my parents, but my other rebellious behavior was also more toned down than that of many of my friends. I can certainly see a teenager asking for a sex change as a purely rebellious action.

Sex changes are not cheap, easy, or reversible. They involve multiple surgeries, hormone injections, and pills with potentially uncomfortable side effects.

And that is why the parent should not let the kid get one.

I don't really understand what your point is. First you imply that a child would be interested in getting a sex change if a sex change was frivilous. However, sex changes clearly are not. They are medical procedures. Are you implying that minors should not undergo medical procedures if they need them? Transsexuality is a legitimate medical issue.

No, my point is a 13 year old does not understand how serious a procedure it is.

I think you'd be suprised at how easily 13 year olds can grasp certain concepts.

When I was 13, I was extremely ill, and took medication that demimated my red blood cell, white blood cell, and platelet counts. I was cogent of the procedures, side effects, and why I wasn't allowed to go to school for a long time. There's no reason that a 13 year old wouldn't be able to understand how serious surgery is.

[toddytodd]

Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

You may call it ridiculous all you want which would only show you true lack of understanding, but it does happen as I have personally experienced it with a fellow class mate. I wouldn't say that it is common and, back in the time I was in school, nor was it popular. However, if it happened back then, when it was frowned upon more so than now, it most definitely happens now, much to your apparent chagrin.

[toddytodd]

Pareve wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.

A sex change fad?

If this is what you got out of what I said, you sadly missed the point.

[Pareve]

toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

You may call it ridiculous all you want which would only show you true lack of understanding, but it does happen as I have personally experienced it with a fellow class mate. I wouldn't say that it is common and, back in the time I was in school, nor was it popular. However, if it happened back then, when it was frowned upon more so than now, it most definitely happens now, much to your apparent chagrin.

That's why a certain amount of therapy and whatnot is required. It's to weed out people who might not be authentically transgendered.

[Kt]

toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

You may call it ridiculous all you want which would only show you true lack of understanding, but it does happen as I have personally experienced it with a fellow class mate. I wouldn't say that it is common and, back in the time I was in school, nor was it popular. However, if it happened back then, when it was frowned upon more so than now, it most definitely happens now, much to your apparent chagrin.

So I suppose because a very small percentage of people are not acctually transsexual, we want to save them from ruining their lives, by ruining the lives of many more authenticly transsexual youth.

[toddytodd]

Pareve wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

You may call it ridiculous all you want which would only show you true lack of understanding, but it does happen as I have personally experienced it with a fellow class mate. I wouldn't say that it is common and, back in the time I was in school, nor was it popular. However, if it happened back then, when it was frowned upon more so than now, it most definitely happens now, much to your apparent chagrin.

That's why a certain amount of therapy and whatnot is required. It's to weed out people who might not be authentically transgendered.

And I think that's great

[toddytodd]

Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

You may call it ridiculous all you want which would only show you true lack of understanding, but it does happen as I have personally experienced it with a fellow class mate. I wouldn't say that it is common and, back in the time I was in school, nor was it popular. However, if it happened back then, when it was frowned upon more so than now, it most definitely happens now, much to your apparent chagrin.

So I suppose because a very small percentage of people are not acctually transsexual, we want to save them from ruining their lives, by ruining the lives of many more authenticly transsexual youth.

If you would like, you are free to do so.
However, you do point to an interesting part of the question: Many things in life are done 'for the many, not the few' ("The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few"). There are a myriad of laws, for example, that govern everyone, but realistically only effect a few. Should we do away with these type of laws?
(Before anyone goes all 'crazy', I am not suggesting laws be made against G/B/L/TS/TG people, only making another way of looking at the situation.)

[Kt]

toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

You may call it ridiculous all you want which would only show you true lack of understanding, but it does happen as I have personally experienced it with a fellow class mate. I wouldn't say that it is common and, back in the time I was in school, nor was it popular. However, if it happened back then, when it was frowned upon more so than now, it most definitely happens now, much to your apparent chagrin.

So I suppose because a very small percentage of people are not acctually transsexual, we want to save them from ruining their lives, by ruining the lives of many more authenticly transsexual youth.

If you would like, you are free to do so.
However, you do point to an interesting part of the question: Many things in life are done 'for the many, not the few' ("The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few"). There are a myriad of laws, for example, that govern everyone, but realistically only effect a few. Should we do away with these type of laws?
(Before anyone goes all 'crazy', I am not suggesting laws be made against G/B/L/TS/TG people, only making another way of looking at the situation.)

Accutally as I was saying, but I think you misunderstood me, the people who think they are transsexual but are infact not really and later regret it ARE the few, as there is far less of them than transsexual people who really are transsexual and do not regret anything.
Seeing as how none of these rules against youth HRT would affect the general populace, but only people who are transsexual or suspect they may be, and seeing as how those who suspect they may be ARE the minority in this group, and if the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, then it would be logical to allow youth more freedom in their transition, as it is better for the many.

[toddytodd]

Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

You may call it ridiculous all you want which would only show you true lack of understanding, but it does happen as I have personally experienced it with a fellow class mate. I wouldn't say that it is common and, back in the time I was in school, nor was it popular. However, if it happened back then, when it was frowned upon more so than now, it most definitely happens now, much to your apparent chagrin.

So I suppose because a very small percentage of people are not acctually transsexual, we want to save them from ruining their lives, by ruining the lives of many more authenticly transsexual youth.

If you would like, you are free to do so.
However, you do point to an interesting part of the question: Many things in life are done 'for the many, not the few' ("The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few"). There are a myriad of laws, for example, that govern everyone, but realistically only effect a few. Should we do away with these type of laws?
(Before anyone goes all 'crazy', I am not suggesting laws be made against G/B/L/TS/TG people, only making another way of looking at the situation.)

Accutally as I was saying, but I think you misunderstood me, the people who think they are transsexual but are infact not really and later regret it ARE the few, as there is far less of them than transsexual people who really are transsexual and do not regret anything.
Seeing as how none of these rules against youth HRT would affect the general populace, but only people who are transsexual or suspect they may be, and seeing as how those who suspect they may be ARE the minority in this group, and if the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, then it would be logical to allow youth more freedom in their transition, as it is better for the many.
There is a fine line between the two situations. How do we correct it? Allowing people younger to make, perhaps the biggest mistake of their life for the many which whom the change would be beneficial? No. Allow the many that truly want (and need) to change not to so that the few can be spared? No. What is the middle line? I have no idea.
The only thing I can think of is to set a minimum age which such things can be done legally, with the proper mental care.
But it all boils down to, if a person is a minor, in the USA, their parents are responsible for them. If the parents are OK with it, that is their family choice, regardless of what I (or anyone else) thinks.
However, my child would not get a sex change at 13 - that's a guarantee.

[Mare Tranquillity]

[quote=toddytodd]There is a fine line between the two situations. How do we correct it? Allowing people younger to make, perhaps the biggest mistake of their life for the many which whom the change would be beneficial? No. Allow the many that truly want (and need) to change not to so that the few can be spared? No. What is the middle line? I have no idea.
The only thing I can think of is to set a minimum age which such things can be done legally, with the proper mental care.
But it all boils down to, if a person is a minor, in the USA, their parents are responsible for them. If the parents are OK with it, that is their family choice, regardless of what I (or anyone else) thinks.
However, my child would not get a sex change at 13 - that's a guarantee.[/qoute]

It's kind of a strawman since there are almost none of the people you describe--in fact none that I've ever heard of. The medical process is too careful for children to slip through like you describe. No one is advocating giving a sex change to a 13 year old who just one day announces that they want one. It's a years long process that you cannot short circuit unless you have a great deal of money and are willing to go outside the country to get the surgery. Not many 13 year olds can do that. At what age is a child allowed to decide whether they are right or left handed? That's about the same age at which they will know their own gender identity. Forcing a left-handed child to write right handed till they are 18 is just as silly as forcing them to pretend to be someone they are not for the first 2 decades of their life.

[toddytodd]

Mare Tranquillity wrote: [quote=toddytodd]There is a fine line between the two situations. How do we correct it? Allowing people younger to make, perhaps the biggest mistake of their life for the many which whom the change would be beneficial? No. Allow the many that truly want (and need) to change not to so that the few can be spared? No. What is the middle line? I have no idea.
The only thing I can think of is to set a minimum age which such things can be done legally, with the proper mental care.
But it all boils down to, if a person is a minor, in the USA, their parents are responsible for them. If the parents are OK with it, that is their family choice, regardless of what I (or anyone else) thinks.
However, my child would not get a sex change at 13 - that's a guarantee.[/qoute]

It's kind of a strawman since there are almost none of the people you describe--in fact none that I've ever heard of. The medical process is too careful for children to slip through like you describe. No one is advocating giving a sex change to a 13 year old who just one day announces that they want one. It's a years long process that you cannot short circuit unless you have a great deal of money and are willing to go outside the country to get the surgery. Not many 13 year olds can do that. At what age is a child allowed to decide whether they are right or left handed? That's about the same age at which they will know their own gender identity. Forcing a left-handed child to write right handed till they are 18 is just as silly as forcing them to pretend to be someone they are not for the first 2 decades of their life.

Taking the 'almost none' mindset with this is no better than what I have been (wrongly) accused of saying. Since you believe (and perhaps rightly so) that there are 'almost none', you disregard these few for the benefit of the many? I would hope not. If one does, they are useless to society.
I am not advocating anyone to do or be anyone they are not - please get that through your heads and stop being so unjustifiably defensive. People need to be who they believe they are. A 13 year old has every right to say "I think I am a [opposite sex]!". At that point, the child's parents need to take them to counseling and start that process. If, after that process, and once the child is an adult and decides or once that child's parents decide (if still a minor), then the sex change option becomes viable.
To the original question: "wants to be the opposite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy?". The answer is absolutely not, until the complete counseling process has run its course. By that time, the child will be older, perhaps more mature (perhaps even an adult). If the child is an adult at this time, they can do what they want and I would still love them regardless.

[Kt]

toddytodd wrote: Mare Tranquillity wrote: [quote=toddytodd]There is a fine line between the two situations. How do we correct it? Allowing people younger to make, perhaps the biggest mistake of their life for the many which whom the change would be beneficial? No. Allow the many that truly want (and need) to change not to so that the few can be spared? No. What is the middle line? I have no idea.
The only thing I can think of is to set a minimum age which such things can be done legally, with the proper mental care.
But it all boils down to, if a person is a minor, in the USA, their parents are responsible for them. If the parents are OK with it, that is their family choice, regardless of what I (or anyone else) thinks.
However, my child would not get a sex change at 13 - that's a guarantee.[/qoute]

It's kind of a strawman since there are almost none of the people you describe--in fact none that I've ever heard of. The medical process is too careful for children to slip through like you describe. No one is advocating giving a sex change to a 13 year old who just one day announces that they want one. It's a years long process that you cannot short circuit unless you have a great deal of money and are willing to go outside the country to get the surgery. Not many 13 year olds can do that. At what age is a child allowed to decide whether they are right or left handed? That's about the same age at which they will know their own gender identity. Forcing a left-handed child to write right handed till they are 18 is just as silly as forcing them to pretend to be someone they are not for the first 2 decades of their life.

Taking the 'almost none' mindset with this is no better than what I have been (wrongly) accused of saying. Since you believe (and perhaps rightly so) that there are 'almost none', you disregard these few for the benefit of the many? I would hope not. If one does, they are useless to society.
I am not advocating anyone to do or be anyone they are not - please get that through your heads and stop being so unjustifiably defensive. People need to be who they believe they are. A 13 year old has every right to say "I think I am a [opposite sex]!". At that point, the child's parents need to take them to counseling and start that process. If, after that process, and once the child is an adult and decides or once that child's parents decide (if still a minor), then the sex change option becomes viable.
To the original question: "wants to be the opposite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy?". The answer is absolutely not, until the complete counseling process has run its course. By that time, the child will be older, perhaps more mature (perhaps even an adult). If the child is an adult at this time, they can do what they want and I would still love them regardless.

As we keep saying, we are not talking about sex change surgery at obscenely young ages, nor are we talking about kids getting HRT without seeing a gender threarapist.

Frankly you're like arguing with a brick wall, good job.

[toddytodd]

Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Mare Tranquillity wrote: [quote=toddytodd]There is a fine line between the two situations. How do we correct it? Allowing people younger to make, perhaps the biggest mistake of their life for the many which whom the change would be beneficial? No. Allow the many that truly want (and need) to change not to so that the few can be spared? No. What is the middle line? I have no idea.
The only thing I can think of is to set a minimum age which such things can be done legally, with the proper mental care.
But it all boils down to, if a person is a minor, in the USA, their parents are responsible for them. If the parents are OK with it, that is their family choice, regardless of what I (or anyone else) thinks.
However, my child would not get a sex change at 13 - that's a guarantee.[/qoute]


It's kind of a strawman since there are almost none of the people you describe--in fact none that I've ever heard of. The medical process is too careful for children to slip through like you describe. No one is advocating giving a sex change to a 13 year old who just one day announces that they want one. It's a years long process that you cannot short circuit unless you have a great deal of money and are willing to go outside the country to get the surgery. Not many 13 year olds can do that. At what age is a child allowed to decide whether they are right or left handed? That's about the same age at which they will know their own gender identity. Forcing a left-handed child to write right handed till they are 18 is just as silly as forcing them to pretend to be someone they are not for the first 2 decades of their life.

Taking the 'almost none' mindset with this is no better than what I have been (wrongly) accused of saying. Since you believe (and perhaps rightly so) that there are 'almost none', you disregard these few for the benefit of the many? I would hope not. If one does, they are useless to society.
I am not advocating anyone to do or be anyone they are not - please get that through your heads and stop being so unjustifiably defensive. People need to be who they believe they are. A 13 year old has every right to say "I think I am a [opposite sex]!". At that point, the child's parents need to take them to counseling and start that process. If, after that process, and once the child is an adult and decides or once that child's parents decide (if still a minor), then the sex change option becomes viable.
To the original question: "wants to be the opposite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy?". The answer is absolutely not, until the complete counseling process has run its course. By that time, the child will be older, perhaps more mature (perhaps even an adult). If the child is an adult at this time, they can do what they want and I would still love them regardless.

As we keep saying, we are not talking about sex change surgery at obscenely young ages, nor are we talking about kids getting HRT without seeing a gender threarapist.

Frankly you're like arguing with a brick wall, good job.

Quote: Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy do you require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain. This is the original post.
How is what I said off topic? Please explain.
You are blind to your 'cause' (which is a term used loosely) - you obviously see what you want to see. Ironic that you used the term 'brick wall'. Or is it funny...:think:
Not that it matters to you I am sure, but 13 is too young to change sex with medical treatment. Discuss it with parents and/or professional counselor? Yes. Change in any way? No. Which is what I have said all along.

[Mare Tranquillity]

toddytodd wrote:
Taking the 'almost none' mindset with this is no better than what I have been (wrongly) accused of saying. Since you believe (and perhaps rightly so) that there are 'almost none', you disregard these few for the benefit of the many? I would hope not. If one does, they are useless to society.
I am not advocating anyone to do or be anyone they are not - please get that through your heads and stop being so unjustifiably defensive. People need to be who they believe they are. A 13 year old has every right to say "I think I am a [opposite sex]!". At that point, the child's parents need to take them to counseling and start that process. If, after that process, and once the child is an adult and decides or once that child's parents decide (if still a minor), then the sex change option becomes viable.
To the original question: "wants to be the opposite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy?". The answer is absolutely not, until the complete counseling process has run its course. By that time, the child will be older, perhaps more mature (perhaps even an adult). If the child is an adult at this time, they can do what they want and I would still love them regardless.

I never advocated a one size fits all approach, as your first bolded sentence seems to indicate.

In your second bolded statement you make clear what hasn't been clear to me before this post. So I have no particular disagreement with you. I'm sorry it has taken so long to come to an understanding.

Somebody once said that the easiest thing to achieve in any discussion is a misunderstanding.

[connermt]

Helena` wrote: Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy? Require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain.

Absolutely not at that age. Maybe some mental health care around that age to determine if their feelings are true, but no therapy no sex change, etc at that age.

[toddytodd]

Mare Tranquillity wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Taking the 'almost none' mindset with this is no better than what I have been (wrongly) accused of saying. Since you believe (and perhaps rightly so) that there are 'almost none', you disregard these few for the benefit of the many? I would hope not. If one does, they are useless to society.
I am not advocating anyone to do or be anyone they are not - please get that through your heads and stop being so unjustifiably defensive. People need to be who they believe they are. A 13 year old has every right to say "I think I am a [opposite sex]!". At that point, the child's parents need to take them to counseling and start that process. If, after that process, and once the child is an adult and decides or once that child's parents decide (if still a minor), then the sex change option becomes viable.
To the original question: "wants to be the opposite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy?". The answer is absolutely not, until the complete counseling process has run its course. By that time, the child will be older, perhaps more mature (perhaps even an adult). If the child is an adult at this time, they can do what they want and I would still love them regardless.

I never advocated a one size fits all approach, as your first bolded sentence seems to indicate.

In your second bolded statement you make clear what hasn't been clear to me before this post. So I have no particular disagreement with you. I'm sorry it has taken so long to come to an understanding.

Somebody once said that the easiest thing to achieve in any discussion is a misunderstanding.

Perhaps I could have said it better originally.
No harm no foul.