Political Crossfire Forums

[Kt]

toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

[toddytodd]

Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.

[Kt]

toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

[Pareve]

toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.

A sex change fad?

[Kt]

Pareve wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.

A sex change fad?
yeah dude, all the kids are changing their sex so that they won't get beat up and teased as much in school, it's the latest rave...

[Mare Tranquillity]

toddytodd wrote: Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves. It has nothing to do with left handedness or right handedness, creativity, love for music, etc. no more than these things that make up a person individually.
You mistake an honest statement for religious bigotry, perhaps. I don't, nor have ever nor will ever deny that fact that some people born physically as a boy or girl feels the exact opposite of their physical sex, any more than I would deny a gay boy feels attracted to other boys at such a young age that he doesn't understand why he is attracted to boys. The issue is the parents allowing a 13 year old to make a decision that the parents would follow through on in regards to a sex change. Once the child is an adult, and they feel the same way and go through the necessary counseling, then I would expect the parents, while perhaps not understanding why, support the child in their decision regardless. To do anything less would mean the parents shouldn't have been parents to begin with.

First bolded statement: What do you mean by this? Please rephrase it.

Second bolded statement: Yes, it does, handedness is innate, can you recognize that? A very young child will know whether they are right or left handed before they can articulate the words. In the same way a child will know their own gender identity very early too.

Your idea that a 13 year old is making the choice to have a sex change is wrong, the child's parents, a series of doctors and counselors, and at least one doctorate level therapist will be involved in the process. The actual sex change surgery will not happen till the child is an adult--not at 13. Please understand that nobody announces one day that they want a sex change and it happens. For a 13 year old to be in the position to desire a sex change is evidence of a many years long process of self-exploration, counseling, medical tests, and education. The idea of a fad developing around gender change is so ludicrous that it only reinforces how little understanding one has to have to even think such a thing.

You continue to mix sex and sexual maturity in with this and it shouldn't be.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Helena` wrote: Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy? Require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain. I would personally not allow my daughter to have hormone replacement therapy under the age of 18, and I would encourage her to wait until 21 although at 18 it would be her choice and I would support her in whatever she chose. I think it would be healthier for her to wait until her body had finished developing and the hormone flow had settled down and was constant. At 13 her body won't have reached a balance between hormones for a simply biological female and throwing in androgens will lead to abnormal development that may not be correctable. In my opinion sexual and gender identity have not truly developed yet at 13.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Mare Tranquillity wrote: Enoch wrote: If my child came to me and want to undergo hormone therapy, and eventual sexual reassignment surgery, at 13 I would be very concerned. Partially due to the struggles that I know s/he would have to go through during and after this process, but also because I would be concerned that they truly know what it is they are asking. While there may be some 13 year-olds who are mature enough to make such a decision, I think it is a rarity. Most children at that age are not developed enough psychologically to fully understand the deapth of this issue.

I would be there for my child, and comfort him/her in any way that I could. I would provide a therapist for them, someone familiar with GLBT issues, so that they have a supportive professional who can help them.

However, to be honest, I would not condone them starting hormone therapy until they are older, at least 18. At that point, should they decide with the help of their therapist, to undergo the transition, I would stand by them through it 100%....as difficult as it would be for both of us.

This is in response to Todd and Slippy, as well as Enoch. Gender identity isn't like sexual orientation. People need to experiment sometimes to discover who they are attracted to sexually. Gender identity is innate, most people know their gender by 3 or 4 years old. Many transsexuals are telling their parents that they are girls (or boys) despite the evidence of physical equipment by the age of 4 or 5. Gender identity has nothing to do with puberty or sexual exploration, it's who you feel like inside yourself.

To be properly treated, children need to be found as early so that they can have the most normal upbring possible instead of being force-fed the wrong-gender cultural programing till they are adults and then required to unlearn all that stuff and relearn what they should have been taught as children. In the city where I live there are two trans-kids working their way through school, both started school as the gender they self identified as being correct (one is a male to female and the other is female to male). The MtF is in her first year of high school, she was given testosterone blockers and estrogen supplementation starting when her peers began puberty so that she could develop naturally along with them. She is not only a completely normal looking girl, she's beautiful, a good student and a cheerleader. Since she has grown up with the kids around her they accept her completely, in fact she is protected from new students by the boys who have known about her since she started school. She won't have the actual sexual reassignment surgery until she stops growing, in her early twenties probably. Because her parents paid attention and got competent professional help right from the start she has grown up with a very normal childhood and adolescence, she won't have to fight the transition battle that most of the rest of us have to fight: unlearning decades of enculturation, learning a whole new set of social mores, reeducating everybody we know, rebuilding our relationships with everyone we know, coping with marriages and children, convincing parents and siblings that we aren't crazy or evil, and trying to do all of this while still holding down a job and supporting ourselves. Forcing someone to live in the wrong gender for the formative years of their lives is a terrible punishment. Because the T-girl above got the right hormone blockers and supplemental estrogen she won't have to pay thousands of dollars and endure the pain of having a useless beard and body hair removed, she won't develop the large hands and feet of the male, won't develop the musculature, heavy brow ridge, or jutting chin of most males. As a person who has gone through all of those things and still has to deal every day with the unrepairable after effects of testosterone I realize what a wonderful gift this girl has been given by her parents.

The process works in reverse for the trans-man in school here. He is only 10 now but when his peers begin puberty he will begin taking testosterone and he'll develop a beard, deep voice, bigger muscles, etc. of the normal male. He'll never have a period, never develop breasts that will require surgical removal and chest reconstruction. He'll grow up with as normal a childhood as is possible considering his original physical configuration. He too can decide to have sexual reassignment surgery when he stops growing.

The beauty of letting these children transition early is that if it's just a phase and they decide not to continue they can simply change their presentation back to their assigned birth gender, with no harm done, clear up until sometime in puberty. They can live as their self identified gender for years first to make sure that's what they want before making a final irreversible decision. In contrast, people like myself have to make the decision to change without the benefit of ever having had the chance to take the new gender out for a test drive.

I responded quickly to this and after reading your posts i agree that if my daughter started self-identifying as male at an early age (she's 5 so I think it would have showed up by now) I would try to raise her as a male and be supportinve of whatever hormone therapy and/or surgery was needed. However, if she started questioning her gender at age 13 I would still urge her to wait until adulthood and would not get her an operation or hormone therapy unless I was advised to do so by a medical professional.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

I often did things during high school because i knew they would infuriate or annoy the other kids. Many rebellious kids do. I also knew that if sex changes were cheap, easy, and reversible I would have gotten one, probably still would but it was something I considered much more seriously as a teenager. I never took action on it, or discussed it with my parents, but my other rebellious behavior was also more toned down than that of many of my friends. I can certainly see a teenager asking for a sex change as a purely rebellious action.

[Pareve]

Babylon_Horuv wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

I often did things during high school because i knew they would infuriate or annoy the other kids. Many rebellious kids do. I also knew that if sex changes were cheap, easy, and reversible I would have gotten one, probably still would but it was something I considered much more seriously as a teenager. I never took action on it, or discussed it with my parents, but my other rebellious behavior was also more toned down than that of many of my friends. I can certainly see a teenager asking for a sex change as a purely rebellious action.

Sex changes are not cheap, easy, or reversible. They involve multiple surgeries, hormone injections, and pills with potentially uncomfortable side effects.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Pareve wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

I often did things during high school because i knew they would infuriate or annoy the other kids. Many rebellious kids do. I also knew that if sex changes were cheap, easy, and reversible I would have gotten one, probably still would but it was something I considered much more seriously as a teenager. I never took action on it, or discussed it with my parents, but my other rebellious behavior was also more toned down than that of many of my friends. I can certainly see a teenager asking for a sex change as a purely rebellious action.

Sex changes are not cheap, easy, or reversible. They involve multiple surgeries, hormone injections, and pills with potentially uncomfortable side effects.

And that is why the parent should not let the kid get one.

[Pareve]

Babylon_Horuv wrote: Pareve wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

I often did things during high school because i knew they would infuriate or annoy the other kids. Many rebellious kids do. I also knew that if sex changes were cheap, easy, and reversible I would have gotten one, probably still would but it was something I considered much more seriously as a teenager. I never took action on it, or discussed it with my parents, but my other rebellious behavior was also more toned down than that of many of my friends. I can certainly see a teenager asking for a sex change as a purely rebellious action.

Sex changes are not cheap, easy, or reversible. They involve multiple surgeries, hormone injections, and pills with potentially uncomfortable side effects.

And that is why the parent should not let the kid get one.

I don't really understand what your point is. First you imply that a child would be interested in getting a sex change if a sex change was frivilous. However, sex changes clearly are not. They are medical procedures. Are you implying that minors should not undergo medical procedures if they need them? Transsexuality is a legitimate medical issue.

[cap'n queasy]

If transgender identifity is a medical condition where a literal female brain is in a male body, or vice versa, why shouldn't the condition be treated immediately?

Would you wait until someone is 18 to fix their broken leg?

The replies to the OP that appear here reveal that they do not really buy into the idea that this is a legitimate physical disorder, but rather a mental condition, but they want to be politically correct.

If it is a true physical, medical condition fixing it early would be the best idea. And everyone knows that.

[Kt]

cap'n queasy wrote: If transgender identifity is a medical condition where a literal female brain is in a male body, or vice versa, why shouldn't the condition be treated immediately?

Would you wait until someone is 18 to fix their broken leg?

The replies to the OP that appear here reveal that they do not really buy into the idea that this is a legitimate physical disorder, but rather a mental condition, but they want to be politically correct.

If it is a true physical, medical condition fixing it early would be the best idea. And everyone knows that.
Wtf? Cap'n Queasy, you feeling alright?

[Babylon_Horuv]

Pareve wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: Pareve wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote: Helena` wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves.
That's the thing though, They don't have to think about it, or make any decisions, it just comes naturally to them, There is occasional confused people that think they are transsexual, this is much more rare than people that know that they are transsexual, and if the instinct is so clear there is no decision to be made.

A lot of things come naturally to them, doesn't mean they are correct -
it would almost be like allowing a 6 year old to vote. How many stupid things do teenagers do that a mature adult (at least should ) say "HUH?!? Why in the world did you do that?!?"
Kids can get way too carried away with fads at that age. I am not saying that a person can't be in touch with their inner feelings at that age, but to allow a child at 13 to say "I want a sex change" and to follow through with it is an irresponsible act on behalf of the parent.
Another idea that was introduced into this post earlier, and hinted at in this post, is that children may transition because It's cool and it's a fad and all the other kids are doing it Let me remind you how wrong you are, transitioning in school will make you less popoular, and probably lead to more bullying and physical violence than the average child in school. The very thought you propose is rediculous.

I often did things during high school because i knew they would infuriate or annoy the other kids. Many rebellious kids do. I also knew that if sex changes were cheap, easy, and reversible I would have gotten one, probably still would but it was something I considered much more seriously as a teenager. I never took action on it, or discussed it with my parents, but my other rebellious behavior was also more toned down than that of many of my friends. I can certainly see a teenager asking for a sex change as a purely rebellious action.

Sex changes are not cheap, easy, or reversible. They involve multiple surgeries, hormone injections, and pills with potentially uncomfortable side effects.

And that is why the parent should not let the kid get one.

I don't really understand what your point is. First you imply that a child would be interested in getting a sex change if a sex change was frivilous. However, sex changes clearly are not. They are medical procedures. Are you implying that minors should not undergo medical procedures if they need them? Transsexuality is a legitimate medical issue.

No, my point is a 13 year old does not understand how serious a procedure it is.

[LostSoul3412]

Helena` wrote: Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy? Require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain.

In all honestly, I would be opposed to it; but at the same time, it isn't my choice to make. However, I would make them wait until they are 18, have them do some research on it, and have them make sure that this is what they really want. Once they're 18, and not living in my house anymore, I can't control them. Basically, it's the "you live under my roof, you live by my rules", but once they're out of the house, I can't tell them no.

[cap'n queasy]

Helena` wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: If transgender identifity is a medical condition where a literal female brain is in a male body, or vice versa, why shouldn't the condition be treated immediately?

Would you wait until someone is 18 to fix their broken leg?

The replies to the OP that appear here reveal that they do not really buy into the idea that this is a legitimate physical disorder, but rather a mental condition, but they want to be politically correct.

If it is a true physical, medical condition fixing it early would be the best idea. And everyone knows that.
Wtf? Cap'n Queasy, you feeling alright?

I'm willing to consider the possibility of an organic origin for this disorder.

[Protostar]

I would, as a parent (in some parallel universe where I had children), do everything in my power to allow my child to be as happy as possible. If he believes that he should be a girl (or vice versa), then I would go through the steps necessary to make that happen including hormone therapy and all that jazz. I'm just glad I'm comfortable with the gender I am. I'd hate to have to depend on my family to be understanding of such issues. Plus, I would be a really ugly girl. :lol:

[LostSoul3412]

Protostar wrote: Plus, I would be a really ugly girl. :lol:

As opposed to a really ugly boy? :lol: :wink:

[Kt]

Protostar wrote: I would, as a parent (in some parallel universe where I had children), do everything in my power to allow my child to be as happy as possible. If he believes that he should be a girl (or vice versa), then I would go through the steps necessary to make that happen including hormone therapy and all that jazz. I'm just glad I'm comfortable with the gender I am. I'd hate to have to depend on my family to be understanding of such issues. Plus, I would be a really ugly girl. :lol:
I'd hit it