Political Crossfire Forums

[Kt]

Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy? Require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain.

[Pareve]

Helena` wrote: Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy? Require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain.

Well, personally, I can't really see myself having children. I mean, anything is possible, but I definitely wouldn't have biological ones, because frankly, that part of my anatomy is just weird and a little gross to me. I feel very disconnected from the concept of childbirth, and I'm not particularly fond of children to begin with. Maybe I'll adopt or something, eventually, but I'm definitely not at that point in my life yet.

I think that I would allow my child to pursue their gender of choice, although I would want to make sure that they fully considered their decision first. I'm not so concerned by the validity of gender dysphoria, based on personal experience, but there are a lot of health and medical complications which must be considered. Surgery is dangerous, and testosterone can literally knock years off of a person's life. I think that I would only make them wait as long as health care professionals deem necissary, since who am I to know how long is long enough?

[bob.appleyard]

I would say that, medically, it would be a good idea to do that sort of stuff way before 13.

Ethically, maybe not.

Once you've made that kind of decision, you can't really turn back.

There are issues, such as how mature are you to make that decision? Again, if we're talking medicine, you're not mature enough to make such a decision until you're in your mid twenties (hence insurance companies having high premiums until ag 25... the bastards). But by then it's way too late.

It is certainly a dilema.

[Pareve]

bob.appleyard wrote: I would say that, medically, it would be a good idea to do that sort of stuff way before 13.

Ethically, maybe not.

Once you've made that kind of decision, you can't really turn back.

There are issues, such as how mature are you to make that decision? Again, if we're talking medicine, you're not mature enough to make such a decision until you're in your mid twenties (hence insurance companies having high premiums until ag 25... the bastards). But by then it's way too late.

It is certainly a dilema.

Those are good points too.

[sLiPpY]

Wanting to be the opposite sex? That's a very err...tough question.

If it were my child. I'd encourage them to be comfortable with who they are, in the bodies their DNA gave them.

If after the age of 18, or whatever the end of my legal responsibilities were...they could do what ever they wished. With my support.

[Mare Tranquillity]

Helena` wrote: Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy? Require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain.

It isn't really your decision to make. Unless you are buying your hormones off the internet you will have to get them from a doctor and most AMA doctors will follow the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care which set time lines and specify periods of counseling before hormones can be taken or surgery can be obtained.

If your child is talking about changing genders get them to a counselor who is familiar with trans-issues right away. The sooner transition begins for a male to female person the better the end result will be. For a female to male person it isn't so critical because the testosterone will overwhelm the effects of estrogen throughout a person's life. Testosterone is a one-way street, once the damage is done it cannot be reversed, whereas estrogen effects are largely reversible.

No age is too young to begin transition but hormones and surgery have to be postponed until the right time in a trans-person's life, changing just the gender presentation--clothing, mannerisms, activities, etc.--can start anytime because they are totally reversible.

[Kt]

Mare Tranquillity wrote:
It isn't really your decision to make. Unless you are buying your hormones off the internet you will have to get them from a doctor and most AMA doctors will follow the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care which set time lines and specify periods of counseling before hormones can be taken or surgery can be obtained.

HBSOC is entirely useless, I remember telling the therapist exactly what they wanted to hear just to get at the drugs faster. And I KNOW i'm not the only one, I would argue that many transpeople may do as such and not even notice. "Oh sure, I played with girls toys as a child, I remember my first memory was of wanting to be a girl, blahblahblah" What a load...

The problem IMHO is that the HBSOC is too limited in it's specifications, there are a lot of people that do not fit into the norm that should still be elegable for HRT, knowing this, I would err on the side of un-caution, and let people self-medicate with medical supervision.

[Mare Tranquillity]

sLiPpY wrote: Wanting to be the opposite sex? That's a very err...tough question.

If it were my child. I'd encourage them to be comfortable with who they are, in the bodies their DNA gave them.

If after the age of 18, or whatever the end of my legal responsibilities were...they could do what ever they wished. With my support.

If you are ever in the situation please study up on it before making any decisions. Being transgendered is a medical condition that occurs during the gestation between the 8th and 18th weeks, it is a hormonally mediated process controlled by the genes of the fetus and can produce a person with a brain of one gender and a body of the other or some mix thereof. Having a brain/body discontinuity can be devastating for a person, I know because I am a transsexual and the period of time in my life from the beginning of puberty at age 11 until I got started on hormone therapy when I was 47 were an unmitigated Hell. Bear in mind that some studies indicate that nearly half of all transgendered people take their own lives by the age of 30. Get professional help for any child that is talking about changing gender or claiming to be the opposite gender.

If, by chance, your child does change gender presentation, stick with them through the process because it is one of the most difficult transitions a person can make. It will probably be tough on you too, but I guarantee it will be far, far tougher on the person making the transition. They'll need all the help they can get.

[Mare Tranquillity]

Helena` wrote: Mare Tranquillity wrote:
It isn't really your decision to make. Unless you are buying your hormones off the internet you will have to get them from a doctor and most AMA doctors will follow the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care which set time lines and specify periods of counseling before hormones can be taken or surgery can be obtained.

HBSOC is entirely useless, I remember telling the therapist exactly what they wanted to hear just to get at the drugs faster. And I KNOW i'm not the only one, I would argue that many transpeople may do as such and not even notice. (Oh sure, I played with girls toys as a child, I remember my first memory was of wanting to be a girl, blahblahblah) What a load...

The problem IMHO is that the HBSOC is too limited in it's specifications, there are a lot of people that do not fit into the norm that should still be elegable for HRT, knowing this, I would err on the side of un-caution, and let people self-medicate with medical supervision.

I'm not claiming that the Standards of Care are perfect nor am I saying that you cannot cheat or lie your way through them, but they are useful for many people because they provide a framework for the transition process that can go a long way towards protecting a person's health. I do outreach in the trans community and I know of people who have been damaged by unsupervised hormone use.

It's also true that the SOC don't fit everyone--what does?--but for a lot of people they are useful. I didn't follow them to the letter either, but I know that people who don't are having more difficulty getting surgery in the US and going outside the US has also proved more problematical since Homeland Security posted the warning about men dressing as women to sneak bombs onto airplanes. There have been far more strip searches of trannies and much tougher scrutiny of documentation since then.

The SOC also lend an air of legitimacy to the whole process that self-medicating with internet drugs doesn't. Having professional guidelines and procedures backed up with years of successful treatment has finally convinced the IRS to allow trannies to deduct surgical expenses from their taxes the same as they would for any medically necessary surgery.

[sLiPpY]

Mare Tranquillity wrote: sLiPpY wrote: Wanting to be the opposite sex? That's a very err...tough question.

If it were my child. I'd encourage them to be comfortable with who they are, in the bodies their DNA gave them.

If after the age of 18, or whatever the end of my legal responsibilities were...they could do what ever they wished. With my support.

If you are ever in the situation please study up on it before making any decisions. Being transgendered is a medical condition that occurs during the gestation between the 8th and 18th weeks, it is a hormonally mediated process controlled by the genes of the fetus and can produce a person with a brain of one gender and a body of the other or some mix thereof. Having a brain/body discontinuity can be devastating for a person, I know because I am a transsexual and the period of time in my life from the beginning of puberty at age 11 until I got started on hormone therapy when I was 47 were an unmitigated Hell. Bear in mind that some studies indicate that nearly half of all transgendered people take their own lives by the age of 30. Get professional help for any child that is talking about changing gender or claiming to be the opposite gender.

If, by chance, your child does change gender presentation, stick with them through the process because it is one of the most difficult transitions a person can make. It will probably be tough on you too, but I guarantee it will be far, far tougher on the person making the transition. They'll need all the help they can get.

I've watched several documentaries on the issue, and have a lot of empathy for individuals who have such life experience. I've seen examples of cultures that had specific roles for such individuals to play in society. Some were positive, some might seem negative, but they were very specific roles? If I'm recalling correctly.

If at the age of 13, a daughter wanted to go to the plastic surgeon and have a boob job. The answer would be no. If at the age of 18, the daughter went out and decided to save money or use their own insurance...well sure.

I think it's wonderful, the options available to people today. If I were the parent in such a situation, I'd be supportive of the unique individual the child is. My role as a parent wouldn't entail paying for physical alterations, whether the child were gay, straight, transgender, or whatever. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be supportive, if they chose to have a boob job or a sex change on their own. As a gift to themself...I don't know about you. But the gifts, I've appreciated most in life...are the one's I'd waited for, hoped for, strived for and given to myself.

[Kt]

sLiPpY wrote: Mare Tranquillity wrote: sLiPpY wrote: Wanting to be the opposite sex? That's a very err...tough question.

If it were my child. I'd encourage them to be comfortable with who they are, in the bodies their DNA gave them.

If after the age of 18, or whatever the end of my legal responsibilities were...they could do what ever they wished. With my support.

If you are ever in the situation please study up on it before making any decisions. Being transgendered is a medical condition that occurs during the gestation between the 8th and 18th weeks, it is a hormonally mediated process controlled by the genes of the fetus and can produce a person with a brain of one gender and a body of the other or some mix thereof. Having a brain/body discontinuity can be devastating for a person, I know because I am a transsexual and the period of time in my life from the beginning of puberty at age 11 until I got started on hormone therapy when I was 47 were an unmitigated Hell. Bear in mind that some studies indicate that nearly half of all transgendered people take their own lives by the age of 30. Get professional help for any child that is talking about changing gender or claiming to be the opposite gender.

If, by chance, your child does change gender presentation, stick with them through the process because it is one of the most difficult transitions a person can make. It will probably be tough on you too, but I guarantee it will be far, far tougher on the person making the transition. They'll need all the help they can get.

I've watched several documentaries on the issue, and have a lot of empathy for individuals who have such life experience. I've seen examples of cultures that had specific roles for such individuals to play in society. Some were positive, some might seem negative, but they were very specific roles? If I'm recalling correctly.

If at the age of 13, a daughter wanted to go to the plastic surgeon and have a boob job. The answer would be no. If at the age of 18, the daughter went out and decided to save money or use their own insurance...well sure.

I think it's wonderful, the options available to people today. If I were the parent in such a situation, I'd be supportive of the unique individual the child is. My role as a parent wouldn't entail paying for physical alterations, whether the child were gay, straight, transgender, or whatever. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be supportive, if they chose to have a boob job or a sex change on their own. As a gift to themself...I don't know about you. But the gifts, I've appreciated most in life...are the one's I'd waited for, hoped for, strived for and given to myself.

You seem focused on sex change surgery itself, how would you feel about providing (for example) your male-to-female daughter with testosterone-blocking drugs, to put peuberty on hold, while s/he thinks about it more indepth. That way s/he would get the benefits of starting hormone thearapy early, but if s/he regrets it or changes his/her mind, it can be stopped.

[Enoch]

If my child came to me and want to undergo hormone therapy, and eventual sexual reassignment surgery, at 13 I would be very concerned. Partially due to the struggles that I know s/he would have to go through during and after this process, but also because I would be concerned that they truly know what it is they are asking. While there may be some 13 year-olds who are mature enough to make such a decision, I think it is a rarity. Most children at that age are not developed enough psychologically to fully understand the deapth of this issue.

I would be there for my child, and comfort him/her in any way that I could. I would provide a therapist for them, someone familiar with GLBT issues, so that they have a supportive professional who can help them.

However, to be honest, I would not condone them starting hormone therapy until they are older, at least 18. At that point, should they decide with the help of their therapist, to undergo the transition, I would stand by them through it 100%....as difficult as it would be for both of us.

[toddytodd]

Helena` wrote: Your son or daughter wants to be the oppisite sex, for the sake of argument, s/he is 13. Would you allow them to undergo hormone replacement therapy? Require them to wait a year, two years, or till they are 18? How young is too young? Explain.

I don't think at 13 they are mentally prepared to make such a life altering decision. All of us who are over 18 on here remember what it was like to be a teenager and want to do something to fit in, or how in love you were with "someone", or whatever. Point is, at 13, most kids have too many hormones and changes going on physically, spiritually, socially and mentally to make such a huge decision.
Once the kid is an adult, I would support them in whatever decision that they would make as long as it was made logically and a lot of thought and preparation was put into it, no matter how much I may not like the idea.

[sLiPpY]

Enoch wrote: If my child came to me and want to undergo hormone therapy, and eventual sexual reassignment surgery, at 13 I would be very concerned. Partially due to the struggles that I know s/he would have to go through during and after this process, but also because I would be concerned that they truly know what it is they are asking. While there may be some 13 year-olds who are mature enough to make such a decision, I think it is a rarity. Most children at that age are not developed enough psychologically to fully understand the deapth of this issue.

I would be there for my child, and comfort him/her in any way that I could. I would provide a therapist for them, someone familiar with GLBT issues, so that they have a supportive professional who can help them.

However, to be honest, I would not condone them starting hormone therapy until they are older, at least 18. At that point, should they decide with the help of their therapist, to undergo the transition, I would stand by them through it 100%....as difficult as it would be for both of us.

In response to Helena', Enoch has described how I feel and would respond very eloquently. The role of a parent is to parent, it is not to be a friend or to play god with modern medicine. Further I subscribe to the notion that we own our own bodies, up until a certain age I would be legally responsible as guardian for what natural selection provided. After that time had passed, the maturing adult should feel supported with whatever decision they choose to make.

[Mare Tranquillity]

Enoch wrote: If my child came to me and want to undergo hormone therapy, and eventual sexual reassignment surgery, at 13 I would be very concerned. Partially due to the struggles that I know s/he would have to go through during and after this process, but also because I would be concerned that they truly know what it is they are asking. While there may be some 13 year-olds who are mature enough to make such a decision, I think it is a rarity. Most children at that age are not developed enough psychologically to fully understand the deapth of this issue.

I would be there for my child, and comfort him/her in any way that I could. I would provide a therapist for them, someone familiar with GLBT issues, so that they have a supportive professional who can help them.

However, to be honest, I would not condone them starting hormone therapy until they are older, at least 18. At that point, should they decide with the help of their therapist, to undergo the transition, I would stand by them through it 100%....as difficult as it would be for both of us.

This is in response to Todd and Slippy, as well as Enoch. Gender identity isn't like sexual orientation. People need to experiment sometimes to discover who they are attracted to sexually. Gender identity is innate, most people know their gender by 3 or 4 years old. Many transsexuals are telling their parents that they are girls (or boys) despite the evidence of physical equipment by the age of 4 or 5. Gender identity has nothing to do with puberty or sexual exploration, it's who you feel like inside yourself.

To be properly treated, children need to be found as early so that they can have the most normal upbring possible instead of being force-fed the wrong-gender cultural programing till they are adults and then required to unlearn all that stuff and relearn what they should have been taught as children. In the city where I live there are two trans-kids working their way through school, both started school as the gender they self identified as being correct (one is a male to female and the other is female to male). The MtF is in her first year of high school, she was given testosterone blockers and estrogen supplementation starting when her peers began puberty so that she could develop naturally along with them. She is not only a completely normal looking girl, she's beautiful, a good student and a cheerleader. Since she has grown up with the kids around her they accept her completely, in fact she is protected from new students by the boys who have known about her since she started school. She won't have the actual sexual reassignment surgery until she stops growing, in her early twenties probably. Because her parents paid attention and got competent professional help right from the start she has grown up with a very normal childhood and adolescence, she won't have to fight the transition battle that most of the rest of us have to fight: unlearning decades of enculturation, learning a whole new set of social mores, reeducating everybody we know, rebuilding our relationships with everyone we know, coping with marriages and children, convincing parents and siblings that we aren't crazy or evil, and trying to do all of this while still holding down a job and supporting ourselves. Forcing someone to live in the wrong gender for the formative years of their lives is a terrible punishment. Because the T-girl above got the right hormone blockers and supplemental estrogen she won't have to pay thousands of dollars and endure the pain of having a useless beard and body hair removed, she won't develop the large hands and feet of the male, won't develop the musculature, heavy brow ridge, or jutting chin of most males. As a person who has gone through all of those things and still has to deal every day with the unrepairable after effects of testosterone I realize what a wonderful gift this girl has been given by her parents.

The process works in reverse for the trans-man in school here. He is only 10 now but when his peers begin puberty he will begin taking testosterone and he'll develop a beard, deep voice, bigger muscles, etc. of the normal male. He'll never have a period, never develop breasts that will require surgical removal and chest reconstruction. He'll grow up with as normal a childhood as is possible considering his original physical configuration. He too can decide to have sexual reassignment surgery when he stops growing.

The beauty of letting these children transition early is that if it's just a phase and they decide not to continue they can simply change their presentation back to their assigned birth gender, with no harm done, clear up until sometime in puberty. They can live as their self identified gender for years first to make sure that's what they want before making a final irreversible decision. In contrast, people like myself have to make the decision to change without the benefit of ever having had the chance to take the new gender out for a test drive.

[Kt]

Mare Tranquillity wrote: Enoch wrote: If my child came to me and want to undergo hormone therapy, and eventual sexual reassignment surgery, at 13 I would be very concerned. Partially due to the struggles that I know s/he would have to go through during and after this process, but also because I would be concerned that they truly know what it is they are asking. While there may be some 13 year-olds who are mature enough to make such a decision, I think it is a rarity. Most children at that age are not developed enough psychologically to fully understand the deapth of this issue.

I would be there for my child, and comfort him/her in any way that I could. I would provide a therapist for them, someone familiar with GLBT issues, so that they have a supportive professional who can help them.

However, to be honest, I would not condone them starting hormone therapy until they are older, at least 18. At that point, should they decide with the help of their therapist, to undergo the transition, I would stand by them through it 100%....as difficult as it would be for both of us.

This is in response to Todd and Slippy, as well as Enoch. Gender identity isn't like sexual orientation. People need to experiment sometimes to discover who they are attracted to sexually. Gender identity is innate, most people know their gender by 3 or 4 years old. Many transsexuals are telling their parents that they are girls (or boys) despite the evidence of physical equipment by the age of 4 or 5. Gender identity has nothing to do with puberty or sexual exploration, it's who you feel like inside yourself.

To be properly treated, children need to be found as early so that they can have the most normal upbring possible instead of being force-fed the wrong-gender cultural programing till they are adults and then required to unlearn all that stuff and relearn what they should have been taught as children. In the city where I live there are two trans-kids working their way through school, both started school as the gender they self identified as being correct (one is a male to female and the other is female to male). The MtF is in her first year of high school, she was given testosterone blockers and estrogen supplementation starting when her peers began puberty so that she could develop naturally along with them. She is not only a completely normal looking girl, she's beautiful, a good student and a cheerleader. Since she has grown up with the kids around her they accept her completely, in fact she is protected from new students by the boys who have known about her since she started school. She won't have the actual sexual reassignment surgery until she stops growing, in her early twenties probably. Because her parents paid attention and got competent professional help right from the start she has grown up with a very normal childhood and adolescence, she won't have to fight the transition battle that most of the rest of us have to fight: unlearning decades of enculturation, learning a whole new set of social mores, reeducating everybody we know, rebuilding our relationships with everyone we know, coping with marriages and children, convincing parents and siblings that we aren't crazy or evil, and trying to do all of this while still holding down a job and supporting ourselves. Forcing someone to live in the wrong gender for the formative years of their lives is a terrible punishment. Because the T-girl above got the right hormone blockers and supplemental estrogen she won't have to pay thousands of dollars and endure the pain of having a useless beard and body hair removed, she won't develop the large hands and feet of the male, won't develop the musculature, heavy brow ridge, or jutting chin of most males. As a person who has gone through all of those things and still has to deal every day with the unrepairable after effects of testosterone I realize what a wonderful gift this girl has been given by her parents.


I think it is important for me to add to Mare Tranquillity's post, is that one's youth stays with them for the rest of their lives, forcing someone to wait till 18 will no doubt mess up their youth more than it has to be messed up, and those memories never go away, even in one's later years, it can make a person very bitter and jealous of youth who are having it so easy by comparison. It took quite a few years for me to stop hating women, acctually.

[sLiPpY]

In response to Mare and Helena, those are some very well written and informative post, you've both presented.

I don't know what a gender identity issue is, but from personal experience I know what chronological age identity issues are.

I turn forty this year, and haven't aged a day since I was 24. I don't know how or why I managed to go 15 years without a wrinkle or a grey hair. But it's frustraighting in that my peer group at work, responds to me as if I were still some wiz kid vs. an equal.

If there were some pill that I could take, that would grow me older to make it easier for me to get a date with someone my age? Would I take it?

Absolutely not, I feel very comfortable with myself...and have learned to deal with having younger women come on to me, and politely explain to younger guys that attempt to make friends. I'm an old dog, and thanks for the invite...etc etc

Any situation is different, and it differs from individual to individual as to how they choose to address it. For me this is normal for now. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks at all...

If the child were insistant I'd probably flex. And in response to Helena's statement upon youth, everyone experiences the path to maturity differently...however my youth has no bearing on who I've grown into. In retrospect, it was neither a help, nor a hinderance.

I believe it depends on the individual vs. the situation.

[toddytodd]

Mare Tranquillity wrote: Enoch wrote: If my child came to me and want to undergo hormone therapy, and eventual sexual reassignment surgery, at 13 I would be very concerned. Partially due to the struggles that I know s/he would have to go through during and after this process, but also because I would be concerned that they truly know what it is they are asking. While there may be some 13 year-olds who are mature enough to make such a decision, I think it is a rarity. Most children at that age are not developed enough psychologically to fully understand the deapth of this issue.

I would be there for my child, and comfort him/her in any way that I could. I would provide a therapist for them, someone familiar with GLBT issues, so that they have a supportive professional who can help them.

However, to be honest, I would not condone them starting hormone therapy until they are older, at least 18. At that point, should they decide with the help of their therapist, to undergo the transition, I would stand by them through it 100%....as difficult as it would be for both of us.

This is in response to Todd and Slippy, as well as Enoch. Gender identity isn't like sexual orientation. People need to experiment sometimes to discover who they are attracted to sexually. Gender identity is innate, most people know their gender by 3 or 4 years old. Many transsexuals are telling their parents that they are girls (or boys) despite the evidence of physical equipment by the age of 4 or 5. Gender identity has nothing to do with puberty or sexual exploration, it's who you feel like inside yourself.

Sexuality is part of what makes a person, regardless if it's identity or orientation. The fact is at 13, most are not mature enough to recognize who or what they are in that regard. I look back at that age and think "What was I thinking to do/say/want 'that'!?" While some may recognize themselves as a boy/girl/whatever at an early age, one would hope the parents are in tune enough with their kid(s) to help out along the way in a positive manner.

It is one thing to think you are a girl in a boy's body or vice versa at a young age, but something totally different to say "I want a sex change!" or "I want to live as a boy/girl from now on!" at that same age. Most are not mentally secure enough to make that type of decision and then expect it to be followed through on with their parents. :?

[Mare Tranquillity]

toddytodd wrote: Sexuality is part of what makes a person, regardless if it's identity or orientation. The fact is at 13, most are not mature enough to recognize who or what they are in that regard. I look back at that age and think "What was I thinking to do/say/want 'that'!?" While some may recognize themselves as a boy/girl/whatever at an early age, one would hope the parents are in tune enough with their kid(s) to help out along the way in a positive manner.

It is one thing to think you are a girl in a boy's body or vice versa at a young age, but something totally different to say "I want a sex change!" or "I want to live as a boy/girl from now on!" at that same age. Most are not mentally secure enough to make that type of decision and then expect it to be followed through on with their parents.:?

What you say makes logical sense from your perspective of having a body/brain continuity. However, history, personal experience, and scientific research say that it just isn't so. (Bolded sentence in your last post.) You are mixing two things that in your life appear to go together like a hand in a glove so you experience them as being the same when in a transsexual's life they are not.

Think about it this way: if your child appeared to be left handed would you make him/her learn to do everything right handedly till they were 18 and had the maturity to decide which hand to use? Handedness and gender identity are both innate qualities and neither one has anything specific to do with sexuality. Children experience their own sense of handedness very early and so do they experience their own sense of who they are inside their own head concerning gender. Many, many people don't like this idea, it seems to offend them in some way--probably because it's confusing to try to imagine having the gender identity vs sexual equipment discontinuity when in your own life the two have been so perfectly aligned that you never even thought about them, let alone considered that other people might experience a misalignment.

Try to take sex out of the equation in the same way that you leave sex out of the handedness equation. All that stuff about teenagers and hormones and such has no place in the discussion. No one is saying that the child should have a sex change before they stop growing, but a sex change is a surgical process and we're not talking about that here. All we are doing is recommending that the child be allowed to present themselves to the world in the gender they believe they are inside their own head--we're talking dress and behavior, if the child lives that way then it gives them and the parents a chance to see if it actually works. If it doesn't and the child decides to go back to their birth gender then all you have to do is buy new clothes. Trust me on this one Todd, if a 5 year old is certain enough to argue with their parents about their gender then they are mature enough to be given the chance to express themselves as they desire.

An anecdote to illustrate: Parents raising their first child are a bit troubled by their daughter's insistence that she is a boy, something she has steadfastly maintained since she could speak well enough to articulate it. The parents do note that she is very male in her actions: aggressive, adventurous, loud, and completely comfortable playing boy games with the other little boys. She never had any use for girls, girl toys, or girl clothes. Her parents allow her to dress androgynously and play as she wishes, they do not confront her on the issue of her gender nor force her to be girlish. At age 7 she is sent to a summer camp for several weeks. At the camp she tells all the kids that the paperwork was screwed up, she is really a boy, and her name is (she made up a boys name). She managed to spend the whole time at the camp doing boy activities by lying in her teeth to everybody. This is a little boy in a girls body and he has been living as a boy since camp and the ensuing years have simply reinforced his obvious, self-proclaimed gender identity. His parents have a second daughter who is just as fem as anyone could hope for a daughter to be. I know these people, Todd, they were presenting at one of the classes for counselors where I was also speaking.

This seems pretty new to a lot of people, because of a deeply entrenched religious bigotry the truth about transsexuals has been very poorly disseminated. Science has been studying trans-people for more than 100 years and the AMA has been successfully treating them for more than 30. The medical and counseling protocols are well-developed and robust, despite the fact (as Helena pointed out) that an adult can lie their way through ofttimes, a child cannot. We know about the other psychological conditions that can masquerade as gender identity disorder and they can be ruled out fairly easily.

[toddytodd]

Mare Tranquillity wrote: toddytodd wrote: Sexuality is part of what makes a person, regardless if it's identity or orientation. The fact is at 13, most are not mature enough to recognize who or what they are in that regard. I look back at that age and think "What was I thinking to do/say/want 'that'!?" While some may recognize themselves as a boy/girl/whatever at an early age, one would hope the parents are in tune enough with their kid(s) to help out along the way in a positive manner.

It is one thing to think you are a girl in a boy's body or vice versa at a young age, but something totally different to say "I want a sex change!" or "I want to live as a boy/girl from now on!" at that same age. Most are not mentally secure enough to make that type of decision and then expect it to be followed through on with their parents.:?

What you say makes logical sense from your perspective of having a body/brain continuity. However, history, personal experience, and scientific research say that it just isn't so. (Bolded sentence in your last post.) You are mixing two things that in your life appear to go together like a hand in a glove so you experience them as being the same when in a transsexual's life they are not.

Think about it this way: if your child appeared to be left handed would you make him/her learn to do everything right handedly till they were 18 and had the maturity to decide which hand to use? Handedness and gender identity are both innate qualities and neither one has anything specific to do with sexuality. Children experience their own sense of handedness very early and so do they experience their own sense of who they are inside their own head concerning gender. Many, many people don't like this idea, it seems to offend them in some way--probably because it's confusing to try to imagine having the gender identity vs sexual equipment discontinuity when in your own life the two have been so perfectly aligned that you never even thought about them, let alone considered that other people might experience a misalignment.

Try to take sex out of the equation in the same way that you leave sex out of the handedness equation. All that stuff about teenagers and hormones and such has no place in the discussion. No one is saying that the child should have a sex change before they stop growing, but a sex change is a surgical process and we're not talking about that here. All we are doing is recommending that the child be allowed to present themselves to the world in the gender they believe they are inside their own head--we're talking dress and behavior, if the child lives that way then it gives them and the parents a chance to see if it actually works. If it doesn't and the child decides to go back to their birth gender then all you have to do is buy new clothes. Trust me on this one Todd, if a 5 year old is certain enough to argue with their parents about their gender then they are mature enough to be given the chance to express themselves as they desire.

An anecdote to illustrate: Parents raising their first child are a bit troubled by their daughter's insistence that she is a boy, something she has steadfastly maintained since she could speak well enough to articulate it. The parents do note that she is very male in her actions: aggressive, adventurous, loud, and completely comfortable playing boy games with the other little boys. She never had any use for girls, girl toys, or girl clothes. Her parents allow her to dress androgynously and play as she wishes, they do not confront her on the issue of her gender nor force her to be girlish. At age 7 she is sent to a summer camp for several weeks. At the camp she tells all the kids that the paperwork was screwed up, she is really a boy, and her name is (she made up a boys name). She managed to spend the whole time at the camp doing boy activities by lying in her teeth to everybody. This is a little boy in a girls body and he has been living as a boy since camp and the ensuing years have simply reinforced his obvious, self-proclaimed gender identity. His parents have a second daughter who is just as fem as anyone could hope for a daughter to be. I know these people, Todd, they were presenting at one of the classes for counselors where I was also speaking.

This seems pretty new to a lot of people, because of a deeply entrenched religious bigotry the truth about transsexuals has been very poorly disseminated. Science has been studying trans-people for more than 100 years and the AMA has been successfully treating them for more than 30. The medical and counseling protocols are well-developed and robust, despite the fact (as Helena pointed out) that an adult can lie their way through ofttimes, a child cannot. We know about the other psychological conditions that can masquerade as gender identity disorder and they can be ruled out fairly easily.

Trying to dissect sexuality and make it consistent across the board for all people is a error in judgment and understanding.
Teenagers (13 year olds) don't think clearly (as a general rule) enough to make such a life altering decision for themselves. It has nothing to do with left handedness or right handedness, creativity, love for music, etc. no more than these things that make up a person individually.
You mistake an honest statement for religious bigotry, perhaps. I don't, nor have ever nor will ever deny that fact that some people born physically as a boy or girl feels the exact opposite of their physical sex, any more than I would deny a gay boy feels attracted to other boys at such a young age that he doesn't understand why he is attracted to boys. The issue is the parents allowing a 13 year old to make a decision that the parents would follow through on in regards to a sex change. Once the child is an adult, and they feel the same way and go through the necessary counseling, then I would expect the parents, while perhaps not understanding why, support the child in their decision regardless. To do anything less would mean the parents shouldn't have been parents to begin with.