Political Crossfire Forums

[straw man]

The commonly accepted explanation as to why the Muslim terrorists do what they do is, "they hate us for our freedom/way of life".

I believe this explanation was propegated to help rally support against them and get people to support the government's war on terror.

I mean, who wouldn't want to defend "freedom" ?

The true explanation is they hate us for:

a) religion. The Koran and Islam isn't too keen on infidels.

b) (and more importantly) our support of the Zionists.

Let's just be realistic.

[Fishstyx]

You sort of contradicted yourself here. You dismiss the "they hate our freedom" argument and then cite one of the true explanations as the Koran's intolerance of infidels.

Our Freedom is the very thing makes us infidels. We do not adhere to the strict principles of the Koran because we're free not to.

[Patriot911]

straw man wrote: The commonly accepted explanation as to why the Muslim terrorists do what they do is, "they hate us for our freedom/way of life".

I believe this explanation was propegated to help rally support against them and get people to support the government's war on terror.

I mean, who wouldn't want to defend "freedom" ?

The true explanation is they hate us for:

a) religion. The Koran and Islam isn't too keen on infidels.

b) (and more importantly) our support of the Zionists.

Let's just be realistic.

I agree that your two explanations are valid, but so is the first.

But WHY do they hate us for our freedom / way of life? Is it jealousy? No. So what is it? It is simple. Our freedom / way of life spells the end of life as the hardcore Muslims in the Middle East know it.

Life for Muslims in the Middle East revolves around Islam. The clerics are the center of the community and wield the true power. Life is hard under Muslim law, but this is how a large number of Muslims like it. They see it as living a pious life in Allah's eyes and as a way to get into heaven.

Now imagine you are a hard core Muslim. You believe with all your heart that the only way to heaven is through following Muslim law. Along comes the "West" and the freedoms / way of life that is in direct conflict with Muslim law. The problem is the Western way of life is very appealing to many, especially the young. You start seeing kids in blue jeans and listening to Western music. You start seeing women rebelling against wearing the Burkas or submitting to their husbands as they should.

Now imagine you are a Muslim cleric. Suddenly you see the people YOU have been charged by Allah to take care of straying from Allah. You see your way of life and more importantly your presigious role in Middle East life being whittled away piece by piece as people start adopting Western ways and accepting Western morals. You try to preach the evils of this way of life, but Western life is far too tempting.

Ever wonder why the US is called the Great Satan by many Muslims in the Middle East? Satan isn't the lord of evil in Islam as he is in Christianity. Instead Satan is the great tempter. He abhors the devout and wishes to tempt them away from Allah. This is how many Muslims see the US as the leader of the West. We tempt people to give up the relatively harsh life of devout Muslims in favor of the nice things of the West and the freedom we have from this harsh life.

When you look at it from this point of view, things start making a lot more sense. You have people like Osama who believes he is truly fighting for the survival of his religion. Yes, they've corrupted the word of Allah, but what other choice do they have? How else can they keep the West out of the Middle East?

We all know it is a losing battle. The march of time goes ever on and change will happen in the Middle East as it is forced to keep pace with the rest of the world. Even still, some would rather take up arms and go down with a fight than accept the inevitable.

[straw man]

Good explanations; I didn't see it like that. But reading your posts it is apparently obvious, I feel kinda dumb.

It really is much more simple then I would've liked to believe. It really is a clash of cultures and not much more. We're gonna kick their a55.

[Patriot911]

straw man wrote: Good explanations; I didn't see it like that. But reading your posts it is apparently obvious, I feel kinda dumb.

It really is much more simple then I would've liked to believe. It really is a clash of cultures and not much more. We're gonna kick their a55.

I didn't see it like that either until I had some Muslim friends from the Middle East clue me in. ;-) It isn't something that is obvious until it is pointed out from their point of view.

As for who will win this clash of cultures, it is obvious who is going to win. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. The Middle East can't block Western influence from getting in, and eventually will have to accept that Islam has to keep up with the times or relegate itself to the same kind of life the Amish have.

In the mean time we will have to deal with the people who insist on blowing themselves and other people up in order to fight a holy war they can't win.

[Otacon]

I think that the Islamic Extremists hate us because we put our nose in their buisness. We need to stay out of the affairs of foreign nations unless they directly effect America.

[Patriot911]

Otacon wrote: I think that the Islamic Extremists hate us because we put our nose in their buisness. We need to stay out of the affairs of foreign nations unless they directly effect America.

Where does it stop though? Osama is mad at us for simply BEING in Saudi Arabia. Think they will be happy when every single Westerner is out of the Middle East? Even if that were possible, I doubt it because Western influence will still affect the culture of the Middle East.

[Rankor and Pissing]

They (meaning the extremist muslims of the world) hate use because we support the "zionists" like Israel and because we are "infidels".

I'm not sure they have a good understanding of what our "freedom" really is...

[citizen_X]

They hate us for our "FREEDOM", hahahahahahahahahahhahahaha. lmao
Oh please. western concept of freedom is a imaginative state. I'll tell you what your freedom is worth.

We all pay taxes for "freedom". yes we all feel truly free now

Paying taxes on land that we "bought". hit me up for some more freedoms

Free Speech, hahahahahaha, very well practiced on the net, poorly practiced in the real world, mainly because nobody has to meet nobody face to face.

Free Religion, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, If I start a religion that has a motto of Kill the President of the United States, I guarantee you, I would be locked up, but its alright for churchs to condemn some red guy with horns that nobody has seen, sad thing is, the guy with horns keeps them in business.

In accordance with muslim nations, as I can see plainly and clearly, its easy to say "They hate us for what we have" I"ll tell what we have, a state of brainwashing, but again I guess its easy for the western world, espiecally Americans to snicker at other countries ways.

Last time I had a good laugh is while I was watching a TV show about americans and asking them questions and they went to Harvard, Yale and so forth. One "professor claimed that canada speaks eskimo, another didn't know what the capital of Canada is, Greenland was green, yes Real Professors at high ranking Universitys, wow, what a joke, these people do not know if they can wipe thier ass or not, but they will eventually and teach the future leaders of the US. If thats Higher Learning then have it.

[Patriot911]

citizen_X wrote: They hate us for our "FREEDOM", hahahahahahahahahahhahahaha. lmao
Oh please. western concept of freedom is a imaginative state. I'll tell you what your freedom is worth.

We all pay taxes for "freedom". yes we all feel truly free now

Paying taxes on land that we "bought". hit me up for some more freedoms

Free Speech, hahahahahaha, very well practiced on the net, poorly practiced in the real world, mainly because nobody has to meet nobody face to face.

Free Religion, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, If I start a religion that has a motto of Kill the President of the United States, I guarantee you, I would be locked up, but its alright for churchs to condemn some red guy with horns that nobody has seen, sad thing is, the guy with horns keeps them in business.

In accordance with muslim nations, as I can see plainly and clearly, its easy to say "They hate us for what we have" I"ll tell what we have, a state of brainwashing, but again I guess its easy for the western world, espiecally Americans to snicker at other countries ways.

Last time I had a good laugh is while I was watching a TV show about americans and asking them questions and they went to Harvard, Yale and so forth. One "professor claimed that canada speaks eskimo, another didn't know what the capital of Canada is, Greenland was green, yes Real Professors at high ranking Universitys, wow, what a joke, these people do not know if they can wipe thier ass or not, but they will eventually and teach the future leaders of the US. If thats Higher Learning then have it.

Tell me.... when you said "Stop making stupid posts" were you talking to yourself? Because if you had read what was written before this you would understand what "freedom" they are talking about instead of making a joke out of yourself by making it mean something completely arbitrary.

[citizen_X]

Big Golf clap to your response patriot911, its called another "view" or another "opinion" on the matter, unless you want to hear the same people with thier rhetoric.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, The "freedom" of public debate, the ability to have many different views in the same room. The very pillar of Democracy that holds everything together, the other "freedoms" are just support columns.

[The Comrade]

citizen_X wrote: They hate us for our "FREEDOM", hahahahahahahahahahhahahaha. lmao
Oh please. western concept of freedom is a imaginative state. I'll tell you what your freedom is worth.

We all pay taxes for "freedom". yes we all feel truly free now

Paying taxes on land that we "bought". hit me up for some more freedoms

Free Speech, hahahahahaha, very well practiced on the net, poorly practiced in the real world, mainly because nobody has to meet nobody face to face.

Free Religion, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, If I start a religion that has a motto of Kill the President of the United States, I guarantee you, I would be locked up, but its alright for churchs to condemn some red guy with horns that nobody has seen, sad thing is, the guy with horns keeps them in business.

In accordance with muslim nations, as I can see plainly and clearly, its easy to say "They hate us for what we have" I"ll tell what we have, a state of brainwashing, but again I guess its easy for the western world, espiecally Americans to snicker at other countries ways.

Last time I had a good laugh is while I was watching a TV show about americans and asking them questions and they went to Harvard, Yale and so forth. One "professor claimed that canada speaks eskimo, another didn't know what the capital of Canada is, Greenland was green, yes Real Professors at high ranking Universitys, wow, what a joke, these people do not know if they can wipe thier ass or not, but they will eventually and teach the future leaders of the US. If thats Higher Learning then have it.

ANARCHY!!!!


YEAH!!!!!!!!

WOOOHOOOO FOR GENERALIZING COUNTRIES CITIZENS!!!!!

YEAH!!!!!!!

[lovebush]

Patriot911 wrote: straw man wrote: The commonly accepted explanation as to why the Muslim terrorists do what they do is, "they hate us for our freedom/way of life".

I believe this explanation was propegated to help rally support against them and get people to support the government's war on terror.

I mean, who wouldn't want to defend "freedom" ?

The true explanation is they hate us for:

a) religion. The Koran and Islam isn't too keen on infidels.

b) (and more importantly) our support of the Zionists.

Let's just be realistic.

I agree that your two explanations are valid, but so is the first.

But WHY do they hate us for our freedom / way of life? Is it jealousy? No. So what is it? It is simple. Our freedom / way of life spells the end of life as the hardcore Muslims in the Middle East know it.

Life for Muslims in the Middle East revolves around Islam. The clerics are the center of the community and wield the true power. Life is hard under Muslim law, but this is how a large number of Muslims like it. They see it as living a pious life in Allah's eyes and as a way to get into heaven.

Now imagine you are a hard core Muslim. You believe with all your heart that the only way to heaven is through following Muslim law. Along comes the "West" and the freedoms / way of life that is in direct conflict with Muslim law. The problem is the Western way of life is very appealing to many, especially the young. You start seeing kids in blue jeans and listening to Western music. You start seeing women rebelling against wearing the Burkas or submitting to their husbands as they should.

Now imagine you are a Muslim cleric. Suddenly you see the people YOU have been charged by Allah to take care of straying from Allah. You see your way of life and more importantly your presigious role in Middle East life being whittled away piece by piece as people start adopting Western ways and accepting Western morals. You try to preach the evils of this way of life, but Western life is far too tempting.

Ever wonder why the US is called the Great Satan by many Muslims in the Middle East? Satan isn't the lord of evil in Islam as he is in Christianity. Instead Satan is the great tempter. He abhors the devout and wishes to tempt them away from Allah. This is how many Muslims see the US as the leader of the West. We tempt people to give up the relatively harsh life of devout Muslims in favor of the nice things of the West and the freedom we have from this harsh life.

When you look at it from this point of view, things start making a lot more sense. You have people like Osama who believes he is truly fighting for the survival of his religion. Yes, they've corrupted the word of Allah, but what other choice do they have? How else can they keep the West out of the Middle East?

We all know it is a losing battle. The march of time goes ever on and change will happen in the Middle East as it is forced to keep pace with the rest of the world. Even still, some would rather take up arms and go down with a fight than accept the inevitable.

this is very well put. I would add to it that Islam requires expansion with the eventual goal of a world under sharia law. the west is a huge obstical to that end.

[justpassingthrough]

Patriot911 wrote: I agree that your two explanations are valid, but so is the first.

But WHY do they hate us for our freedom / way of life? Is it jealousy? No. So what is it? It is simple. Our freedom / way of life spells the end of life as the hardcore Muslims in the Middle East know it.

Life for Muslims in the Middle East revolves around Islam. The clerics are the center of the community and wield the true power. Life is hard under Muslim law, but this is how a large number of Muslims like it. They see it as living a pious life in Allah's eyes and as a way to get into heaven.

Now imagine you are a hard core Muslim. You believe with all your heart that the only way to heaven is through following Muslim law. Along comes the "West" and the freedoms / way of life that is in direct conflict with Muslim law. The problem is the Western way of life is very appealing to many, especially the young. You start seeing kids in blue jeans and listening to Western music. You start seeing women rebelling against wearing the Burkas or submitting to their husbands as they should.

Now imagine you are a Muslim cleric. Suddenly you see the people YOU have been charged by Allah to take care of straying from Allah. You see your way of life and more importantly your presigious role in Middle East life being whittled away piece by piece as people start adopting Western ways and accepting Western morals. You try to preach the evils of this way of life, but Western life is far too tempting.

Ever wonder why the US is called the Great Satan by many Muslims in the Middle East? Satan isn't the lord of evil in Islam as he is in Christianity. Instead Satan is the great tempter. He abhors the devout and wishes to tempt them away from Allah. This is how many Muslims see the US as the leader of the West. We tempt people to give up the relatively harsh life of devout Muslims in favor of the nice things of the West and the freedom we have from this harsh life.

When you look at it from this point of view, things start making a lot more sense. You have people like Osama who believes he is truly fighting for the survival of his religion. Yes, they've corrupted the word of Allah, but what other choice do they have? How else can they keep the West out of the Middle East?

We all know it is a losing battle. The march of time goes ever on and change will happen in the Middle East as it is forced to keep pace with the rest of the world. Even still, some would rather take up arms and go down with a fight than accept the inevitable.

This is an interesting read.

Try replacing the word 'Islam' and 'Allah' with 'Hinduism' and 'Brahma', 'Buddhism' and 'Buddha', or 'Christianity' and 'God', you will find that almost any fundamentalist believer of those religions would make similar claims.

Also, unlike you seem to believe, the vast majority of Muslims abhor violence and would not be classified as 'hardcore' or 'fundamentalist'. Are they different? Yes, but your post insinuates that Islam is somehow more primitive than Western society, that is wrong.

The reason so many Muslims seem to have a real grudge against the Western world has little to do with their religion, so leave that aside, and more to do with colonialism, borders drawn on maps in Paris 3500 miles away, and Western 'interests', more specifically, oil.

Allah did not tell Muhammad 1300 years ago to 'kill Americans', however, when foreign powers repeatedly abuse both the governments and people of a region made up mostly of Muslims, you will see some extremists resorting to religion, in this specific case, Islam, to justify attacks against them.

Ignore the 'Islam' argument, it is not religion that drives the 'hate' in Southwestern Asia, it is politics, plain and simple.

I'm sorry if that's not the response you really want to hear, but it is much closer to the truth than believing Islam is somehow 'more evil'.

[Patriot911]

justpassingthrough wrote: This is an interesting read.

Try replacing the word 'Islam' and 'Allah' with 'Hinduism' and 'Brahma', 'Buddhism' and 'Buddha', or 'Christianity' and 'God', you will find that almost any fundamentalist believer of those religions would make similar claims.

Not really, although there may be some fundamentalists that feel this way. Christians or Buddists (Buddist fundamentalists?!?) don't find their way of life threatened at such a basic level as Muslims in the Middle East.

justpassingthrough wrote: Also, unlike you seem to believe, the vast majority of Muslims abhor violence and would not be classified as 'hardcore' or 'fundamentalist'. Are they different? Yes, but your post insinuates that Islam is somehow more primitive than Western society, that is wrong.
Where did I say the majority are violent? While it is true there is a very violent minority who take to violence as a way to fight for their religion and their way of life, you are correct in stating the majority abhor violence.

I wouldn't say Islam is more primitive than Western society. That is far too broad. I would say life in the Middle East is more primitive in general than Western life, but again that is a generalization and not relevant to my point. My point revolves around the lifestyle devout Muslims in the Middle East believe is the "true" way to live in order to be devout to Allah.

justpassingthrough wrote: The reason so many Muslims seem to have a real grudge against the Western world has little to do with their religion, so leave that aside, and more to do with colonialism, borders drawn on maps in Paris 3500 miles away, and Western 'interests', more specifically, oil.
On this we will have to disagree. When was the last time you heard a terrorist talking about oil? OK, now when was the last time you heard a terrorist talking about Allah? Ignoring what they are saying and claiming they are talking about something else is egotism at its finest.

justpassingthrough wrote: Allah did not tell Muhammad 1300 years ago to 'kill Americans', however, when foreign powers repeatedly abuse both the governments and people of a region made up mostly of Muslims, you will see some extremists resorting to religion, in this specific case, Islam, to justify attacks against them.
Why do they have to resort to religion to justify ANYTHING unless the religion is central to the issue? Did the French resistance have anything to do with religion? Did the Jews in Poland have to resort to religion to justify their resistance?

Why on Earth would you make up reasons for why you are doing what you are doing, ESPECIALLY when you have specific goals in mind? It defeats the whole point! Do you honestly think Muslims would be attacking Israel if Israel was made up of European Muslims instead of Jews? If you do, then your claim that it is over land and not religion is false.

justpassingthrough wrote: Ignore the 'Islam' argument, it is not religion that drives the 'hate' in Southwestern Asia, it is politics, plain and simple.
Yeah..... all the talk of Allah is just a diversion. :roll:

justpassingthrough wrote: I'm sorry if that's not the response you really want to hear, but it is much closer to the truth than believing Islam is somehow 'more evil'.
Where did I ever say Islam is "more evil"? It isn't! I was explaining reasons for tension which results in some people in the Middle East resorting to strapping bombs to themselves and flying planes into buildings. When was the last time you saw someone willing to kill themselves over oil? Over a foreign policy that they didn't agree with?

Sorry. Taking Islam out of the equation takes you so far away from the truth that you're no longer even in the same ballpark. It is pure ignorance to dismiss what the terrorists and others in the Middle East claim is the reason for their actions and substitute your own, especially when your reasons makes absolutely no sense without religion as an underlying reason.

[Patriot911]

citizen_X wrote: Big Golf clap to your response patriot911, its called another "view" or another "opinion" on the matter, unless you want to hear the same people with thier rhetoric.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, The "freedom" of public debate, the ability to have many different views in the same room. The very pillar of Democracy that holds everything together, the other "freedoms" are just support columns.

See, the thing is you are suppose to debate viewpoints. If you don't want others to critique your writing, you shouldn't write. When you write pure drivel such as you did in your other post, you should really get use to others laughing at you and pointing out the falsehoods. It would appear you wish your "freedom" to include freedom from anyone else expressing their opinion of your writing. Well, that is one freedom you don't have, especially on these forums.

[Claudia Schiffer]

Yea! they hate you, and the boogieman will come and get you! :lol: :lol:

[citizen_X]

Patriot911, don't try to spin to far from the subject, what is laughable to others, could be misery to others, we are debating viewpoints.

I don't need to "spin" my suggestions and views to gain "acceptance" from the rookies to the veterans of this forum.

The very sad thing is from your response from the first reply, dare I say No Substence, now I hate that line, but maybe I struck a emotional patriotical chord with you that offended your nations values. Maybe I went off topic a bit, but that doesn't matter. I've been here for only a couple days and seen many threads completly went off topic, so call a cop.

Too bad they still haven't invented/completed that mind control device to control everyones thoughts so we can all agree with each other. lol

[Hypocritical_Hypocrisy]

Ah, this is one of the times I wish we didn't have free speech. Simply because, sometimes peoples' opinions are just stupid. Example: Above post

[GNOMEchomsky]

Anyone who thinks that the militant Muslims hate Americans because of their freedom is just regurgitating propaganda.

Why don't people just LISTEN to them? They explain quite cleary why they hate us. And I don't blame them!