Political Crossfire Forums

[Richard Owl Mirror]

I came across these two conflicting websites.
Perhaps someone can tell me which one is correct, Islamically speaking.

WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi
THE QUR'AN SAYS THAT ALLAH GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS
AND WILL RESTORE THEM TO IT AT THE END OF DAYS


and this site says:


"Israel a Prophecy in the Quran"
response by: Abdullah Yusuf Ali The future of Jerusalem in the Noble Quran


~@~

So, what should a non-muslim ~ non-jew believe ?

[Muslima]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: I came across these two conflicting websites.
Perhaps someone can tell me which one is correct, Islamically speaking.

WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi
THE QUR'AN SAYS THAT ALLAH GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS
AND WILL RESTORE THEM TO IT AT THE END OF DAYS


and this site says:


"Israel a Prophecy in the Quran"
response by: Abdullah Yusuf Ali The future of Jerusalem in the Noble Quran


~@~

So, what should a non-muslim ~ non-jew believe ?

As always, having probelms with blocked sites.
Can you please post the article in the second site?
Thank you previously.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Muslima wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: I came across these two conflicting websites.
Perhaps someone can tell me which one is correct, Islamically speaking.

WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi
THE QUR'AN SAYS THAT ALLAH GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS
AND WILL RESTORE THEM TO IT AT THE END OF DAYS


and this site says:


"Israel a Prophecy in the Quran"
response by: Abdullah Yusuf Ali The future of Jerusalem in the Noble Quran


~@~

So, what should a non-muslim ~ non-jew believe ?

As always, having probelms with blocked sites.
Can you please post the article in the second site?
Thank you previously.

First site of two
Quote: Rebuttal to Walid's book's "Israel a Prophecy in the Quran" section:



He wrote:

Israel a Prophecy in the Quran
The Quran speaking on the restoration of Israel; "And after him (Moses), we said to the children of Israel, dwell Ye in the promised land, and when the time of the promise of the latter days comes, we shall bring you out of various peoples". Some Muslim scholars like Mustafa Mahmud in his book, The Quran a Modern Understanding, explains a Quranic verse concerning Israel; "And We gave (clear) warning to the children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the land and be elated with mighty arrogance (And twice would they be punished)!" (Al-Isra[17]:4).

According to Mr. Mahmud, this verse as a prophecy in the Quran, he comments; "And here we see today the Jews reaching might and power and doing iniquity in the land for the second time" What Mr. Mahmud ignored is a very important historical and Biblic.al fact that Israel had two well known historical events were they did iniquity, both events are well recorded in history, and both events God made them pay for by allowing the destruction of Israel.

The first; The Babylonian destruction (Nebuchadnezzar 586 B.C.), the Israelites were carried into captivity. This punishment was given as they rebelled against God and disobeyed his commandments. This was the first destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

The second; The Roman destruction (Titus A.D. 70), they disobeyed again, and the Temple was destroyed. The Jews were dispersed throughout the world (The Diaspora). This was the second destruction to the Temple in Jerusalem. Twice disobeyed, and twice destroyed. This is clearly not a prophecy but repeating what the Bible and history already told us. The Muslim scholar Abdullah Yusuf Ali interprets the Quran for these verses correctly agreeing with the facts documented in history, and in total agreement with the truth, (see page 674, The Meaning of The Holy Quran).



My response:

Again, please visit: What is the Status of Jerusalem in the Noble Quran?



Again, please visit: What is the Status of Jerusalem in the Noble Quran?
Quote: The future of Jerusalem in the Noble Quran:

The sections of this article are:

- The future of Jerusalem in the Noble Quran.
- The Bible claims that the Jews will all gather in Israel and will defeat the
Gog and Magog army. Is this true?
- Even Moses and Jesus and other Prophets never liked the Jews.
- Allah Almighty warned us from the Jews' tampering with the Bible.
- Most Jews are evil doers except for few of them.
- Conclusion.

Let us look at the Noble Verses 17:4-10 "4. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

8. It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).

9. Verily this Qur'an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

10. And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announceth) that We have prepared for them a Penalty Grievous (indeed)."

According to Noble Verses 17:4-10, Allah Almighty allowed for the Jews before the Noble Quran was revealed "that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!" The first time they rose before the Noble Quran was revealed was during the times of the Babylon Empire. When they did mischief on earth, Allah Almighty decided to damn them by sending them the army of "Nebuchadnezzar" and he destroyed them. See also 2 Kings 24:10-21, 2 Kings 25:1-5 in the Bible.

Please visit The End of Times Battles in Islam.

The story of Gog and Magog and the Iron Gates in the Noble Quran.

"The second doom was due to the rejection of the Message of Jesus. 'To disfigure your faces' means to destroy any credit or power you may have got: the face shows the personality of the man. Titus's destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.C. was complete. He was a son of the Roman Emperor Vespasian, and at the date of the destruction of Jerusalem, had the title of Caesar as heir to the throne. He ruled as Roman Emperor from 79 to 81 A.C.

Merivale in his Romans Under the Empire gives a graphic account of the siege and final destruction (ed. 1890, 7:221-255). The population of Jerusalem was then 200,000. According to the Latin historian Tacitus it was as much as 600,000. There was a famine and there were massacres. There was much fanaticism. The judgement of Merivale is: 'They (the Jews) were judicially abandoned to their own passions and the punishment which naturally awaited them.' (7:221)." (The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an).

The punishment for the Jews has not ended. Allah Almighty will continue punishing them for all the evil that they cause in life until they repent. Notice that He, the Almighty, said: "but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments).... (The Noble Quran, 17:8)" This means that He, the Almighty, Would repeat history with them and cause them to face destructions again if they don't stop causing mischief and evil here on earth.

In the Bible GOD Almighty made a big statement in Isaiah 48:6-9 about giving unpredicted future prophecies for or against the people of Israel:

"You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you. They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth. For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 48:6-9)"

"So I will disgrace the dignitaries of your temple, and I will consign Jacob to destruction and Israel to scorn. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 43:28)"

"But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 50:11)"

In these verses we see GOD Almighty declaring that He knows well how treacherous the people of Israel are, and how He has a future wrath/punishment for them, which perfectly agrees with the Noble Quran.

Please visit The Jews are causing mischief today.

Does the Noble Quran in 17:104 say that the Jews will prevail in the State of Israel until the Day of Judgement?

The End of Times Battles in Islam.



The Bible claims that the Jews will all gather in Israel and will defeat the Gog and Magog army. Is this true?

This is all false, because the above verses from the Bible clearly refute that and prove that GOD Almighty no longer Has any Blessings for the people of Israel. If you examine with an open mind the evidence provided in the Bible and the evidence provided in the Noble Quran, you will see that the Noble Quran is the Truthful source. Yes, the army of Gog and Magog will return. Yes, the army of Gog and Magog did exist. The Noble Quran makes references to them and to the places that they were in. Historical discoveries confirmed the truth in the Noble Quran's claims that didn't exist in the Bible. For instance, the Noble Quran talks about the "Iron Gates" that were built against the army of Gog and Magog. The Bible makes no mention for it. Those Iron Gates were discovered later and their place and description matches that of the Noble Quran's.

It is important to know that according to Islam, the army of Gog and Magog that has yet to come, will represent all of the evil in the World. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him predicted that they will consist of the Idol Worshipers (such as the Hindus and the Oriental Pagans of today) and the Evil Doers (such as the Sexually open and Drug and Alcoholic Western Societies of today).

So when Gog and Magog return, they will not fight the Jews. They will fight the Muslims, for the Muslims are the ones who Worship God Almighty the most, but Prostrating to Him 5 times a day, and Fasting the Month of Ramadan and Paying Charity in its full.

Please visit The End of Times Battles in Islam.

The army of Gog and Magog and the Iron Gates in the Noble Quran.



Even Moses and Jesus and other Prophets never liked the Jews:

From Moses:

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"

From Jeremiah:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

From Jesus:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"

Please visit Contradictions and proofs of Historical Corruptions in the Bible.

Why did Allah Almighty allow for the Bible to get corrupted?

The Jews were corrupt! They corrupted the Word of GOD Almighty. Like Jeremiah 8:8, the Noble Quran clearly states it:

"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (The Noble Quran, 5:13)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

Perhaps, that is why Allah Almighty decided to end His Message/Revelations with the Arabs, the other part of the Middle Eastern society that has not been polluted and unhampered by the burden of age-old prejudicies.

Please visit: We Muslims only believe in Jesus' quotes as closest to the Truth in the Bible.

If we analyze Jesus' quote, we would see frustration in him from the Jews. The Jews even tried to Crucify Jesus peace be upon him. But Allah Almighty saved him according to Islam.

The Jews were not the "Chosen People" of GOD Almighty.



Allah Almighty warned us from the Jews' tampering with the Bible:

Allah Almighty warned us from the Jews' tampering with the Bible. He gave them chances before to repent and turn to Allah, but they were too arrogant to accept the Truth from Allah Almighty.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them [the Jews] and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

"Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones." (The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an).

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"

"Ye [Muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (The Noble Quran 3:110)"



Most Jews are evil doers except for few of them:

The above Noble Verses should be ample enough to prove that according to Islam, the Jews are evil doers, "excepting a few of them.....(5:13)" who "among them are some who have faith.....(3:110)", and "stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (3:113-114)"



Further sites to research:

The original Bible was lost! See comments from the NIV Bible itself.

What is the Wisdom of Islam?

The Blessed Jesus in Islam.

Why do Muslims consider only Jesus' quotes as the closest to the Truth from the Bible?

Human equality and Justice in Islam Vs. in Christianity.

The End of Times Battles in Islam.

The story of Gog and Magog and the Iron Gates in the Noble Quran.

The Signs of Armageddon (The End of Times Battles) in Islam.

The Jews' offensive views toward Jesus, Mary, and People especially Women in their Holy Book, the Talmud.

Does the Noble Quran in 17:104 say that the Jews will prevail in the State of Israel until the Day of Judgement?

Was Hitler's Holocaust against the Jews prophesied in Islam?



Bibliography:

1- The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an.
Author: Abdullah Yusuf Ali.
Published by: Amana Publications, 10710 Tucker Street, Suite B, Beltsville, Maryland 20705-2223 USA.
Telephone: (301) 595-5777.
Fax: (301) 595-5888.
ISBN: 0-91597-59-0 (HC).

[Saracen]

Abdul-Hadi Palazzi is a Zionist sheikh whose credibility is very skeptical in the Muslim world. Abdullah Yusuf Ali acknowledges that the creation of the Zionist state of Israel was prophesised in the Koran, but that does not make the Koran in itself a Zionist book; in fact, according to this website, Jesus will gather the Muslims and fight against the Jewish Zionists who are in hold of Palestine, and the Gog and Magog army will be defeated not by humans, but by two creatures: a worm that will attach to the necks of the Gog and Magog army soldiers, and a bird or insect... not sure, really.

So, to tell you the truth, Abdullah Yusuf Ali's version is most correct: there is no explicit or implicit contextual interpretation that gives the Hebrew/Jewish people the sole right over all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, but they did have this right at one time. However, the Children of Israel broke the Covenant by committing mischievous deeds. While it may not be all of them who committed these deeds, most of them at the time did so.

And nice to see you again, Rich.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Saracen wrote: Abdul-Hadi Palazzi is a Zionist sheikh whose credibility is very skeptical in the Muslim world. Abdullah Yusuf Ali acknowledges that the creation of the Zionist state of Israel was prophesised in the Koran, but that does not make the Koran in itself a Zionist book; in fact, according to this website, Jesus will gather the Muslims and fight against the Jewish Zionists who are in hold of Palestine, and the Gog and Magog army will be defeated not by humans, but by two creatures: a worm that will attach to the necks of the Gog and Magog army soldiers, and a bird or insect... not sure, really.

So, to tell you the truth, Abdullah Yusuf Ali's version is most correct: there is no explicit or implicit contextual interpretation that gives the Hebrew/Jewish people the sole right over all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, but they did have this right at one time. However, the Children of Israel broke the Covenant by committing mischievous deeds. While it may not be all of them who committed these deeds, most of them at the time did so.

And nice to see you again, Rich.

:hi: You too Saracen

[Muslima]

even if Abdul Hadi Palazzi had a point, the jews lost their rights in living in palestine before Moses died because they refused to fight for their land when god asked them to!

5:

20.
And (remember) when Mûsa (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Remember the Favour of
Allâh to you, when He made Prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not
given to any other among the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns, in the past)."
21.
"O my people! Enter the holy land (Palestine) which Allâh has assigned to you, and turn not back (in
flight) for then you will be returned as losers."
22.
They said: "O Mûsa (Moses)! In it (this holy land) are a people of great strength, and we shall never
enter it, till they leave it; when they leave, then we will enter."
23.
Two men of those who feared (Allâh and) on whom Allâh had bestowed His Grace [they were
íæÔÚæßÇáÈ Yûsha' (Joshua) and Kâlab (Caleb)] said: "Assault them through the gate, for when
you are in, victory will be yours, and put your trust in Allâh if you are believers indeed."
24.
They said: "O Mûsa (Moses)! We shall never enter it as long as they are there. So go you and your
Lord and fight you two, we are sitting right here."
25.
He [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother, so separate us
from the people who are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh)!"
26.
(Allâh) said: "Therefore it (this holy land) is forbidden to them for forty years; in distraction they will
wander through the land. So be not sorrowful over the people who are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious and
disobedient to Allâh)."

[Saracen]

Muslima wrote: even if Abdul Hadi Palazzi had a point, the jews lost their rights in living in palestine before Moses died because they refused to fight for their land when god asked them to!

5:

20.
And (remember) when Mûsa (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Remember the Favour of
Allâh to you, when He made Prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not
given to any other among the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns, in the past)."
21.
"O my people! Enter the holy land (Palestine) which Allâh has assigned to you, and turn not back (in
flight) for then you will be returned as losers."
22.
They said: "O Mûsa (Moses)! In it (this holy land) are a people of great strength, and we shall never
enter it, till they leave it; when they leave, then we will enter."
23.
Two men of those who feared (Allâh and) on whom Allâh had bestowed His Grace [they were
íæÔÚæßÇáÈ Yûsha' (Joshua) and Kâlab (Caleb)] said: "Assault them through the gate, for when
you are in, victory will be yours, and put your trust in Allâh if you are believers indeed."
24.
They said: "O Mûsa (Moses)! We shall never enter it as long as they are there. So go you and your
Lord and fight you two, we are sitting right here."
25.
He [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother, so separate us
from the people who are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh)!"
26.
(Allâh) said: "Therefore it (this holy land) is forbidden to them for forty years; in distraction they will
wander through the land. So be not sorrowful over the people who are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious and
disobedient to Allâh)."

Thanks for supporting my argument, and nice to see you're still around!

[Showboat]

In that second site that Richard posted the author says that Moses didn't like "The Jews" and talks about the Levites (Jews). As I understand it there were 12 tribes. Each named after a son of Jacob (Israel). The promised land was divided in to 11 areas. One for each tribe except the Levites who were all priests. After securing the land from the Philistines and other foreign peoples, the country split in to two, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in one with the city of Jerusalem, called their country Judea and the others in their country called Israel. Israel was defeated by Cyrus the great and the people displaced and their identity eventually lost. Judea was then later conquered by the Babylonians, and the people sent in to exile in Babylon. These people kept their identity and eventually returned to Judea and stayed there under their own and different rulers until the Romans got fed up with them and kicked them out, with them only returning in force last Century. Anyway what I'm getting at is that it's the people of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin who are the "Jews" not the Levites. No?

The other thing I don't get is.... do Muslims believe that Allah chose the Hebrews as his chosen people to live in "The Promised land" but they messed up and changed the words of God for their own agendas? Now if that's the case, I don't know if it is, but the God who is infallible made a serious error in picking them.

Quote: As always, having probelms with blocked sites.

I know what it's like Muslima. Staying in China I can't even get the bloody BBC website. Censorship :td: [/quote]

[Muslima]

Saracen wrote: Thanks for supporting my argument, and nice to see you're still around!

You're welcome, bro. I will be around till something bad happens to me.

[Muslima]

Showboat wrote: In that second site that Richard posted the author says that Moses didn't like "The Jews" and talks about the Levites (Jews). As I understand it there were 12 tribes. Each named after a son of Jacob (Israel). The promised land was divided in to 11 areas. One for each tribe except the Levites who were all priests. After securing the land from the Philistines and other foreign peoples, the country split in to two, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in one with the city of Jerusalem, called their country Judea and the others in their country called Israel. Israel was defeated by Cyrus the great and the people displaced and their identity eventually lost. Judea was then later conquered by the Babylonians, and the people sent in to exile in Babylon. These people kept their identity and eventually returned to Judea and stayed there under their own and different rulers until the Romans got fed up with them and kicked them out, with them only returning in force last Century. Anyway what I'm getting at is that it's the people of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin who are the "Jews" not the Levites. No?

The other thing I don't get is.... do Muslims believe that Allah chose the Hebrews as his chosen people to live in "The Promised land" but they messed up and changed the words of God for their own agendas? Now if that's the case, I don't know if it is, but the God who is infallible made a serious error in picking them.

I know I will be attacked for I am going to say, maybe not by you but the others.
for the chosen people, God didn't make a mistake. We believe they were the chosen people but not any more.

as for the first part, all I know is that only tribe from the tribes survived, the rest were killed or whatever. the surviving tribe are not the ones now living in palestine-israel. I have no proof of this, they are just sayings.

Quote: As always, having probelms with blocked sites.

I know what it's like Muslima. Staying in China I can't even get the bloody BBC website. Censorship :td: [/quote]

it is frustrating.