Political Crossfire Forums

[mendosan]

Ssushi wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Six million Israelis are surrounded by 200 million hostile Muslims who dream nothing but to wipe Israel off the map. Of course, Israel has nukes, it is the only deterrence that Muslims understand.

So in summary: all 200M Muslims want to wipe Israel off the map? They do nothing but 'dream' about doing it... You don't think that a significant %age of these 200M are just normal people, who happen to be muslims?

:roll:

id say 40% would push the button if given the chance.

[puffin]

Claudia,
So your opinion is that Israel is a "little shi**ty state". You can't even spell sh*ty.
How lame is that?
Israel is a great state. It has transformed a desert into a prosperous garden. Israels neighbors can not over come the fact that they sit on billions of dollars of oil money yet are unable to even supply drinkable water to their populations. They have no industry except hate towards Jews. Someday their populations are going to wake up and boot the haters out and decide to start living peaceful prosperous lives. Until then they will continue to get their collective ass*s kicked by a state which is many times smaller yet enormously more powerful. Why? Because those who live lives focused on murder and hate will always lose. It's basic human nature and the reason man has evolved and survived thus far. In any tribe (population/country) it was and is always those who were/are unable to live by the laws of commom decency who were unable to survive. We are watching this law of nature take place in the ME.
Israel will use nuclear weapons only as a last resort but make no mistake they have them and will use them.
This last debacle with Iran/Hezbohla was the best thing to happen to Israel. Never again will Israel get into a battle with radical Islamofacists and hold back. Don't bother trying to claim Israel was doing everything militarily possible. Israel held back for international political reasons. If it wanted to it could have turned Leb. into an even bigger ash tray than it was before. Israel could have made Damacsus and Tehran look like no one had ever lived there since the beginning of time----and will when and if required. That's what's got the radical Islamofacists so pis*ed off. They know what Israel is capable of and as long as the status quo continues the radical Islamofacists can't fullfill their blood vow to wipe Israel off the map. Well that's never going to happen and the radical Islamofacists can only fulfill their fantasy in wet dreams.

[superskippy]

Yes. Regardless of the perspective on nuclear weapon you may have they offer us our only and final way to secure our state. Should the Arabs find the ability to once again unite and march to war and should it come to the point where we cannot repel them and we are going to fall our nuclear arsenal offers a final conclusion. I will not whitewash and say that these weapons would not be a terrible, to the contrary the intention is that millions will die.

The point of these weapons is to offer a final defense even at the cost of our own state, we have built Israel up with all of our strength, intellect, and toil and if it comes to the point where we might lose it, the Arab world will burn and we might as well. We gave the world Masada, we can and will do it again if it comes to that.

The price for the destruction of Israel thus remains too high for any of the Arab states to want to attempt even if they might one day gain a military ability to overpower us. So yes I support it without an shred of wavering. Think what you will, we decided on this path even before our state was created as our final assurance that we might survive.

[thatisnotme]

puffin wrote: Well that's never going to happen and the radical Islamofacists can only fulfill their fantasy in wet dreams.

:tu:

[Saracen]

Thrilla wrote: nope... i dont want Israel to have nukes... i personally abhor nuclear weapons

That needs to be said again and again and again, because it can't be said enough times.

thatisnotme wrote: Why don't I see that in the Muslim world, ordinary Muslims criticizing their own leaders on how their whole worldview of Jews is warped and dangerous?

Probably because all the propaganda about ALL Muslims AND Arabs being a bunch of crazy anti-Semites is just that... propaganda? But yeah, I already pointed out anti-Semitism in the Arab world, though much of it is due to Israel, and this doesn't make Arab anti-Semitism any more justified than anti-Semitism in general. The thing is, there are a lot of people who can make a lot of noise, and make it seem that we're all violent scumbags.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear people in the West denounce Islamophobia as well as anti-Arab racism... or am I missing something?

[thatisnotme]

Saracen wrote:
thatisnotme wrote: Why don't I see that in the Muslim world, ordinary Muslims criticizing their own leaders on how their whole worldview of Jews is warped and dangerous?

Probably because all the propaganda about ALL Muslims AND Arabs being a bunch of crazy anti-Semites is just that... propaganda? But yeah, I already pointed out anti-Semitism in the Arab world, though much of it is due to Israel, and this doesn't make Arab anti-Semitism any more justified than anti-Semitism in general. The thing is, there are a lot of people who can make a lot of noise, and make it seem that we're all violent scumbags.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear people in the West denounce Islamophobia as well as anti-Arab racism... or am I missing something?

Did you miss the demonstrations in most major Western cities denouncing the Danes during the cartoon controversy? There are plenty of Westerners who are against the US or Israel in regard to the question of Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims and go out to demonstrate publicly their sympathy for Islam? But how many in the Muslim world are willing to demonstrate publicly against their own governments and show sympathy for Israel? I'll spare you the answer: not many if none at all.

[SpartanPhalanx]

Claudia Schiffer wrote: NO!, Israel is way to dangerous, i don't trust them, they are deceiving, etc...And the fact that they refuse to admit they have such weapon worries me and should worries everyone...


Agree, but this really is a non-issue. Israel DOES have them, you can thank the French for sending Israel nuclear after Israel's support to France and Britain during their war on Egypt back in 1956. You can read more here....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/23/wnuke23.xml

Iran may say it is researching nuclear power for 'peaceful purposes' but if you can slice through the propaganda,(on both sides) many can usually see it is an arms race pure and simple. Only problem is, the United States will probably resort to its usual M.O to solve the world's problems,
through the barrell of a gun.

[Saracen]

notme wrote: Did you miss the demonstrations in most major Western cities denouncing the Danes during the cartoon controversy?

I might have.

Quote: There are plenty of Westerners who are against the US or Israel in regard to the question of Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims and go out to demonstrate publicly their sympathy for Islam?

I know that. There are many Arabs who have shown their sympathy for the West and an antipathy to Islam.

Quote: But how many in the Muslim world are willing to demonstrate publicly against their own governments and show sympathy for Israel? I'll spare you the answer: not many if none at all.

Okay... so, what you're trying to point out is that the sides should be balanced? You're complaining that Israel has fewer supporters than the Palestinians? What do you expect?! When everyone knows what Israel is about, do you expect some of them to mull over and join the side of Israel "just for the sake of presenting an opposing viewpoint"? I respect opposing viewpoints, and to say that there are no Muslims supporting Israel ridiculous because there are a lot of them.

Moreover, what makes you think I'm pro-government to begin with?

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: Yes. Regardless of the perspective on nuclear weapon you may have they offer us our only and final way to secure our state. Should the Arabs find the ability to once again unite and march to war and should it come to the point where we cannot repel them and we are going to fall our nuclear arsenal offers a final conclusion. I will not whitewash and say that these weapons would not be a terrible, to the contrary the intention is that millions will die.

There is no way that Israel has any just reason to keep nuclear weapons, nor any nation for that matter. Sure, you might say that a nation has its interests to serve, but those interests can't harm the interests of others, nor claim superiority over the international law to begin with.

Quote: The point of these weapons is to offer a final defense even at the cost of our own state, we have built Israel up with all of our strength, intellect, and toil and if it comes to the point where we might lose it, the Arab world will burn and we might as well. We gave the world Masada, we can and will do it again if it comes to that.

Well, Israel was built on bodies and homes as well, and farmlands and property that belonged to other people. But the reasons that Israel keeps its existence are primarily racist in nature and avoid the underlying causes: Israel, whatever may be, must accept the reasons why the "Arab world" hates it so much.

Quote: The price for the destruction of Israel thus remains too high for any of the Arab states to want to attempt even if they might one day gain a military ability to overpower us. So yes I support it without an shred of wavering. Think what you will, we decided on this path even before our state was created as our final assurance that we might survive.

But there are a lot of people out there who don't care about that. No one is going to care about Israel's "toil" or "victory" or whatever it is that supposedly created that Zionist state. Don't take me wrong: I want peace between Palestinians and Israelis, and even if it means the destruction of the Israeli Knesset just to create a single state for all Jews and Arabs in historic Palestine, I will support that. ;)

On a lighter note, I'd like to visit Masada some day. :lol:

[thatisnotme]

Saracen wrote: When everyone knows what Israel is about, do you expect some of them to mull over and join the side of Israel "just for the sake of presenting an opposing viewpoint"?



You seem to know very little about Israel. It was the Arabs who rejected UN resolution 188 in 1948 and declared war on Israel. Since then only Egypt and Jordan have recognized the state of Israel and made peace with it. The rest is still at war with Israel, still refuse to recognize it as a state, with most Muslims wanting and labouring to destroy Israel.

[superskippy]

Quote: There is no way that Israel has any just reason to keep nuclear weapons, nor any nation for that matter. Sure, you might say that a nation has its interests to serve, but those interests can't harm the interests of others, nor claim superiority over the international law to begin with.

I just gave you our reason, but you dont dispute our reason you dispute our right in general, wouldnt that be a better way to say it? To be frank we dont offer the world that we are trying to be fair with our weapons afterall their express purpose is to give us a final salvo. We are not interested nor claim to be looking out for the interests of our fellow nations in this regard, we are looking out for our own interest and assurance that we will remain. We arent asking the world or anyone for approval, we dont want it or need it in this regard.

Quote: Well, Israel was built on bodies and homes as well, and farmlands and property that belonged to other people. But the reasons that Israel keeps its existence are primarily racist in nature and avoid the underlying causes: Israel, whatever may be, must accept the reasons why the "Arab world" hates it so much.

Since the first sentance relates to a different debate which you and I have battled back and forth before as I'm sure you remember I'll proceed to the main point :wink: .

Our existance is kept because we have thus far had the strength to keep it, demographically we are secure which may be what your hinting at but none of our methods are racist in the slightest. We have a loyal non Jewish population that has served with distinction in our society.

Quote: But there are a lot of people out there who don't care about that. No one is going to care about Israel's "toil" or "victory" or whatever it is that supposedly created that Zionist state. Don't take me wrong: I want peace between Palestinians and Israelis, and even if it means the destruction of the Israeli Knesset just to create a single state for all Jews and Arabs in historic Palestine, I will support that.

Did you quote the wrong part? I'm confused as to what your responding to, and once again... Hey!

[Rotkäppchen]

Yes, absolutely!

[fiction416]

no

[Pareve]

I'm not a fan of nuclear weapons, but Israel needs as much defensive capability as it can get... And threatening nuclear annihiliation is certainly an effective defensive tool.

[The Comrade]

nuclear holocaust is a nice thing to keep in your bag of tricks.


it keeps people in check.

[Pareve]

The Comrade wrote: nuclear holocaust is a nice thing to keep in your bag of tricks.


it keeps people in check.

I don't think it keeps people in check, but it certainly keeps other countries in check. I mean, I don't think a Palestinian teenager has ever decided to put his rock down because Israel has nuclear weapons.

[nrhy]

Pareve wrote: The Comrade wrote: nuclear holocaust is a nice thing to keep in your bag of tricks.


it keeps people in check.

I don't think it keeps people in check, but it certainly keeps other countries in check. I mean, I don't think a Palestinian teenager has ever decided to put his rock down because Israel has nuclear weapons.

that´s the thought of an individual, but would the communities as a whole agree to attack israel, even when aware of the overwhelming consequences (nuclear)? ..That´s definetly a NO.

The point stands, Israel has no right to claim superiority over any country just because it contains nukes.

[Saracen]

notme wrote: You seem to know very little about Israel. It was the Arabs who rejected UN resolution 188 in 1948 and declared war on Israel. Since then only Egypt and Jordan have recognized the state of Israel and made peace with it. The rest is still at war with Israel, still refuse to recognize it as a state, with most Muslims wanting and labouring to destroy Israel.

You seem to know very little about Palestine. It was the Israelis who attacked after they accepted the resolution. Egypt and Jordan have suckup regimes who swear loyalty to the Israeli Knesset, and most Muslims want to see Israel replaced with a unified state. Destroying the state of Israel doesn't mean killing off its people.

superskippy wrote: Our existance is kept because we have thus far had the strength to keep it, demographically we are secure which may be what your hinting at but none of our methods are racist in the slightest. We have a loyal non Jewish population that has served with distinction in our society.

The idea that it has been inter-regulated into a minority is racist.

Quote: Did you quote the wrong part? I'm confused as to what your responding to, and once again... Hey!

And once again, Salaam.

[Pareve]

nrhy wrote:
that´s the thought of an individual, but would the communities as a whole agree to attack israel, even when aware of the overwhelming consequences (nuclear)? ..That´s definetly a NO.
Right. That's my point.

nrhy wrote: The point stands, Israel has no right to claim superiority over any country just because it contains nukes.

Huh? Who said Israel was claiming superiority over any other nations? Nukes don't make or break a country. I mean, look at North Korea. They have nuclear weapons and yet they are still one of the crappiest countries on Earth. Israel could claim superiority because their economy is better, or because they are more developed, or because the standard of living is higher, or because their military is one of the best in the world, but honestly, having a nuclear weapon isn't impressive enough to make a nation superior to another nation.

[Pareve]

patton449 wrote: If Israel doesn't have the bomb and Iran gets it, That would make Israel a prime target for Iran. Iran, Syria, the palistinians, and Lebanon/Hezbollah all want to destroy Israel. If Israel doesn't have the bomb, then they are in a really bad spot when Iran gets it. And If Israel falls, America is the only major Islamic extremist target left. So the us has to do everything in its power to keep Israel going for many reasons. We basically control the country anyway. If we gave them the bomb, we could make sure that they don't use it unless we say they can. Also they may already have the bomb anyway. They are listed as an undeclared nuclear state. Thats not saying that they don't have the bomb, but that they might have it. I just think the Israeli's and America is just safer if Israel has the bomb then if they don't.

Israel already has the bomb.